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Old
02-10-2010, 10:54 PM
  #126
trilobyte
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Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
God damn Lisin can create something out of nothing, but he's closer to Rico Fata than Mike Gartner. .
I'm not being sarcastic. Do you actually see Lisin doing good things with the puck, smart things that other people don't notice.

My take on Lisin is that he has no creativity, but I do think he has skill.

Do you think he is worth hanging on to?

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02-10-2010, 10:54 PM
  #127
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Not for nothing, but Avery has had a terrible season.

Hes been noticeable in a handful of games and one of them was the Dallas revenge game.

Other than that hes just flat out been a ordinary 3rd-4th liner. Sean Avery is anything but ordinary. Its amazing how players fall off the map in NYC. Quite comical actually.

I dont know what his deal is but i'd like Sean Avery back.

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02-10-2010, 10:55 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by BigCanada77 View Post
Ridding the team of players like Redden, Drury, and Rozy, I'm all in favor of, but I think we should get people back, tanking to get high draft picks do not guarantee anything but high expectations. And when people are rooting for other teams to overtake us in the standing, I just get disgusted.
Which people should we get back for that murder's row of players? How about Redden Drury and Rozy for Washington's top line?

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02-10-2010, 10:55 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by BigCanada77 View Post
Ridding the team of players like Redden, Drury, and Rozy, I'm all in favor of, but I think we should get people back, tanking to get high draft picks do not guarantee anything but high expectations. And when people are rooting for other teams to overtake us in the standing, I just get disgusted.
I think it is just the fact that people don't want us to be "mediocre". They don't want to finish 9th. If this team is going to suck, they better really suck so that we all know there is a bright future, if they are going to make the playoffs than great, however I don't see it.

Prospal, Jokinen, Brashear, Rozsival should all be traded, see how this team does while looking past this season.

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02-10-2010, 10:56 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
I dont think many people are saying "tank", what we are saying is that if this team isn't going to make the playoffs, why not sell players like Jokinen and Prospal and try to move Rozsival for any sort of future pieces that can help down the road. This team is already tanking without any help from anyone, they are 6th from the bottom of the league.
Exactly. This team is NOT winning the cup or even coming anywhere close. Does anyone really believe otherwise? So why not get a couple high picks or prospects for guys that are gone anyway? If you take profit out of the equation there is absolutely no reason not too.

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02-10-2010, 10:56 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
I'm not being sarcastic. Do you actually see Lisin doing good things with the puck, smart things that other people don't notice.

My take on Lisin is that he has no creativity, but I do think he has skill.

Do you think he is worth hanging on to?
I think Lisin has never developed into a solid NHL player. He has the skillset for sure but he makes odd decisions and his reads and hockey instincts just arent there. I don't think thats something you can teach to be honest.

I really don't think hes worth holding onto if you ask me.

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02-10-2010, 10:57 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
And its not about TANKING.

I hate that word. Its just about a realization. You want to set yourself up the best you can to succeed. Sometimes you have to take a step back to take one forward. It doesnt mean you have to abandon winning habits and the correct attitude to succeed in this league. It DOES mean to reassess your team correctly and do whats right by not wasting assets on foolish deals for what's becoming a pipe dream. Thats all I wish for

31 points in 22 games is going to be very difficult even with a favorable schedule. Unfortunately if you take a look ahead its not so easy.
Well said.

If this team were truly to "tank," they would be making Lundqvist and Gaborik healthy scratches each night, or even trade them. Because without them they would really have a minimal chance of winning.

But even with Lundqvist and Gaborik starting each game, this team struggles to win. The reality of the situation is that this is not a good team, and there's a possibility that the team may miss the playoffs even if they stand pat at the deadline.

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02-10-2010, 10:57 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
I dont think many people are saying "tank", what we are saying is that if this team isn't going to make the playoffs, why not sell players like Jokinen and Prospal and try to move Rozsival for any sort of future pieces that can help down the road. This team is already tanking without any help from anyone, they are 6th from the bottom of the league.
I'm fine with that mentality, when people root for fielding a subpar product on purpose to get higher draft picks, thats when my blood boils.

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02-10-2010, 10:59 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Not for nothing, but Avery has had a terrible season.

Hes been noticeable in a handful of games and one of them was the Dallas revenge game.

Other than that hes just flat out been a ordinary 3rd-4th liner. Sean Avery is anything but ordinary. Its amazing how players fall off the map in NYC. Quite comical actually.

I dont know what his deal is but i'd like Sean Avery back.
Yeah, in the 3rd period they mentioned his name and my wife actually commented that she wasn't even aware he was playing. I said neither was I. He's been nearly invisible this season besides the Dallas game and the 2 or 3 times a he goes offsides each night.

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02-10-2010, 10:59 PM
  #135
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That's the thing. I watch Lisin and think he will get a groove, but some players you see incremental improvement and with him I don't see that.

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02-10-2010, 11:00 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post

It doesnt mean you have to abandon winning habits and the correct attitude to succeed in this league. It DOES mean to reassess your team correctly and do whats right by not wasting assets on foolish deals for what's becoming a pipe dream.
This is well said. At some point as a GM you have to look at your team and the situation you are in and make an honest assessment on what is in the teams best interest long term. We have played 60 games, that is a pretty good sample size.

You don't walk into the locker room and tell everyone to stop playing hard. You trade expiring contracts for draft picks and bring up some kids to replace them. You try and get out from under any bad contracts and you keep playing hard. If the team finds some type of chemistry after the changes and goes on a run and sneaks into the playoffs, terrific. If not and they miss the playoffs, at least now you have something for the assets you were gonna lose for nothing. Burying your head in the sand and waiting till the team is mathematically eliminated is very short sighted.

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02-10-2010, 11:01 PM
  #137
Anthony Mauro
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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
I'm not being sarcastic. Do you actually see Lisin doing good things with the puck, smart things that other people don't notice.

My take on Lisin is that he has no creativity, but I do think he has skill.

Do you think he is worth hanging on to?
I guess it's just how you define creativity. I think we're thinking the same thing. I meant create as far just being able to take the puck and go with it. He is not a player who is "creative" IE. at all times able to handle the puck, make guys miss, anticipate plays, etc. So strictly as far beating a guy or two wide while one touching the puck.

He has skill all right. One skill: Speed!

For a team in our position starved for offense and a fanbase/culture that doesn't want any more high priced underachievers or trades involving youth, I think he's a decent option to get on the ice for a few more minutes. Put it this way, if we picked up another top liner or two and added Kreider/Grachev/Stepan, I wouldn't think twice about cutting him.

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02-10-2010, 11:01 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Not for nothing, but Avery has had a terrible season.

Hes been noticeable in a handful of games and one of them was the Dallas revenge game.

Other than that hes just flat out been a ordinary 3rd-4th liner. Sean Avery is anything but ordinary. Its amazing how players fall off the map in NYC. Quite comical actually.

I dont know what his deal is but i'd like Sean Avery back.
Funny (sad) how nobody mentions this much at all because of the overabundance of underachievers who get more notoriety than him: Redden, Drury, Rozsival, Dubinsky(hasn't been bad but hasn't progressed the way a lot of people thought he would), Higgins, Kotalik, Staal (same as Dubi), Girardi (because he's been playing top pair minutes), Gilroy (had his best games in pre-season and hasn't been the same since), etc...

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02-10-2010, 11:01 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
This is well said. At some point as a GM you have to look at your team and the situation you are in and make an honest assessment on what is in the teams best interest long term. We have played 60 games, that is a pretty good sample size.

You don't walk into the locker room and tell everyone to stop playing hard. You trade expiring contracts for draft picks and bring up some kids to replace them. You try and get out from under any bad contracts and you keep playing hard. If the team finds some type of chemistry after the changes and goes on a run and sneaks into the playoffs, terrific. If not and they miss the playoffs, at least now you have something for the assets you were gonna lose for nothing. Burying your head in the sand and waiting till the team is mathematically eliminated is very short sighted.
Also well said. It's too bad the economics of this team make it so hard for them to accept what everyone already knows.

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02-10-2010, 11:01 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
I think it is just the fact that people don't want us to be "mediocre". They don't want to finish 9th. If this team is going to suck, they better really suck so that we all know there is a bright future, if they are going to make the playoffs than great, however I don't see it.

Prospal, Jokinen, Brashear, Rozsival should all be traded, see how this team does while looking past this season.
I dont know, it just seems dishonorable to me... I must be old fashioned or something, and at 22 that kinda scares me lol.

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02-10-2010, 11:02 PM
  #141
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It's embarrassing how they got to this point.
Meh. I daresay you don't feel that way about the '94 Rangers and their checkbook.

The fact of the matter is that you'd be hard pressed to find any player, administrator, or fan of the Pens who is embarrassed at their team. That being the case, why on earth should they care that a Ranger fan calls them "embarrassing"? They care no more than the same Ranger fan cares when the local Isles and Devils fans say the '94 Cup was bought by the Rangers.

Let the Blueshirts tank for a few years and build a consistent contender with a championship or two scattered in there. I guarantee the vast majority of "tanking-is-disgraceful" fans will find a way to justify things in their own minds, just as the purchase of the '94 Cup has been justified.

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02-10-2010, 11:04 PM
  #142
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Avery gets what 10-12 minutes a game? Say he gets a few more minutes and throws a few more checks and takes a few more hits to make a play. Don't you think that'll get him a little more involved. A more involved Sean Avery = a better Sean Avery.

I blame Tortorella. It's not Sean.

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02-10-2010, 11:05 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
Funny (sad) how nobody mentions this much at all because of the overabundance of underachievers who get more notoriety than him: Redden, Drury, Rozsival, Dubinsky(hasn't been bad but hasn't progressed the way a lot of people thought he would), Higgins, Kotalik, Staal (same as Dubi), Girardi (because he's been playing top pair minutes), Gilroy (had his best games in pre-season and hasn't been the same since), etc...
True. But in all fairness he has more points than Drury yet the Rangers pay him only about 1/4 as much. The reality is this team is bad because just about everyone on it is playing poorly.

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02-10-2010, 11:05 PM
  #144
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That's the thing. I watch Lisin and think he will get a groove, but some players you see incremental improvement and with him I don't see that.
It's unfortunate that he has to be put through waivers to be sent down to the AHL, because I think he may benefit from spending some time there.

Lisin just can't seem to put it all together. He'll make a great move entering the zone and then totally foul it up once he needs to make a play. His decision making is really delayed, it's like there's some disconnect between his brain and his hands.

I think tonight's game may have been the most frustrating to watch in terms of Lisin's play. Speedy but no clue what to do after he enters the offensive zone.

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02-10-2010, 11:07 PM
  #145
HockeyBasedNYC
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Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
Avery gets what 10-12 minutes a game? Say he gets a few more minutes and throws a few more checks and takes a few more hits to make a play. Don't you think that'll get him a little more involved. A more involved Sean Avery = a better Sean Avery.

I blame Tortorella. It's not Sean.
Im sorry but you have to make the most of your time. It falls on the player just as much IMO. Avery was playing well towards the beginning of the year and was getting time on the top 2 lines here and there. It wasnt sustained.

Its not always about checking and antagonizing either with Sean. When he was playing well he was doing it with his stick as well as his mouth. He needs to do everything better, he has the skills to do it. We've seen him basically take over the playoff series last year for this team, with the same coach behind the bench, he has it in him - i just dont know where its gone.

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02-10-2010, 11:09 PM
  #146
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It's unfortunate that he has to be put through waivers to be sent down to the AHL, because I think he may benefit from spending some time there.

Lisin just can't seem to put it all together. He'll make a great move entering the zone and then totally foul it up once he needs to make a play. His decision making is really delayed, it's like there's some disconnect between his brain and his hands.

I think tonight's game may have been the most frustrating to watch in terms of Lisin's play. Speedy but no clue what to do after he enters the offensive zone.
I don't think Hartford will do him any good. His speed is enough to let him get by in the NHL. All he will do is blow by guys and beast the competition in my mind. But not in a way that will translate to the NHL. Not in the way that we're hoping he develops. He'll just rely on his one trick to get him back up.

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02-10-2010, 11:15 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Im sorry but you have to make the most of your time. It falls on the player just as much IMO. Avery was playing well towards the beginning of the year and was getting time on the top 2 lines here and there. It wasnt sustained.

Its not always about checking and antagonizing either with Sean. When he was playing well he was doing it with his stick as well as his mouth. He needs to do everything better, he has the skills to do it. We've seen him basically take over the playoff series last year for this team, with the same coach behind the bench, he has it in him - i just dont know where its gone.
Would any top liner have the points they have if they played something like 8-12 minutes less a game?

He averaged a ballpark amount of 17 minutes a game in Washington series.

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02-10-2010, 11:15 PM
  #148
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I dont know, it just seems dishonorable to me... I must be old fashioned or something, and at 22 that kinda scares me lol.
I think of it like a business, if your business knew that they would have a down year for one year in order for them to grow and flourish for 10 would you take it?

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02-10-2010, 11:16 PM
  #149
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Let the Blueshirts tank for a few years and build a consistent contender with a championship or two scattered in there. I guarantee the vast majority of "tanking-is-disgraceful" fans will find a way to justify things in their own minds, just as the purchase of the '94 Cup has been justified.
I can't really argue with your logic, or your shrewd take on human nature, that of sports fans especially. If the tank comes from above in an edict of 'rip it up, start a new', then fine if that is what is needed. However, as always, 'it depends'. NYR are not the tanking Penguins.
I actually don't think that is what the Rangers need. I'm no genius, and don't understand the machinations of contract management, but neither do some NHL general managers.

The core is good. What we see right now is good, what makes us puke is the old crap. Not getting to the playoffs is not going to break me up. Not if I thought we sunk Redden into some dark hole, and traded a guy like Prospal for good benefit, in other words, taking advantage of someone out there who thinks they need him for a Cup run.

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02-10-2010, 11:21 PM
  #150
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Avery is on pace for 29 pts that is not too far off from his regular production. Sure you like to see him score a couple of more goals this year. But Torts only plays Avery 10-12 mins a night. Not saying Avery deserves a ton more ice time but Renney used to play him more which is why he had a little more production.

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