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Old
02-10-2010, 11:28 PM
  #151
dedalus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
However, as always, 'it depends'. NYR are not the tanking Penguins.
Oh, I agree. This organization has never been willing to commit to such a course of action.

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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
The core is good.
I think the core is "willing." How much actual talent there is, I'm not at all sure. We seem to have many too many 2nd/3rd line tweeners. I'd say we need one more legit first liner and two definitive second liners. Maybe the latter are in the system. Only time will tell there.

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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
What we see right now is good, what makes us puke is the old crap. Not getting to the playoffs is not going to break me up. Not if I thought we sunk Redden into some dark hole, and traded a guy like Prospal for good benefit, in other words, taking advantage of someone out there who thinks they need him for a Cup run.
Right. I think what comes out of selling Prospal and others like Girardi, and Jokinen is a team that weaker and more inexperienced yet. Thus it is more likely to lose and position itself for a high pick.

In other words, as has been pointed out again and again, the high pick is not the target. It's the result of the action.

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02-10-2010, 11:29 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
I'm not being sarcastic. Do you actually see Lisin doing good things with the puck, smart things that other people don't notice.

My take on Lisin is that he has no creativity, but I do think he has skill.

Do you think he is worth hanging on to?
I think Lisin is absolutely horrendous with his decision making and as Rosen said, the final few strides, he whiffs on more shots in 1 10 game span than most players do for their entire careers. i mean, how many guys can burst past 3 guys with lightning like speed, get in a position to shoot, and completely whiff on the puck...time...and....time....again.

jesus christ its so frikkin horrible to watch. I mean, i get why people see the "upside" because clearly the kid has talent. if he didnt, he wouldnt be able to get in the position to do said whiffing. however, hes just so effing stupid out there, tries to go one on 3 when he should curl around the back of the net and wait, tries to stop and do god knows what when he shoudl have just blistered past a guy, tries to shoot when he should pass, tries to pass when he should shoot. I swear if you put Artem Anisimovs brain in Enver Lisins body, you'd have a perrenial 50 goal scorer on your hand. and likewise if you put Lisins brain in Anisimovs body, youd have a guy who couldnt find a job anywhere. Lisin has such unbelievable gifts but my god is so frikkin DUMB.

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02-10-2010, 11:45 PM
  #153
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Lisin tries to do everything all at once and manages to do exactly nothing all the time

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02-10-2010, 11:45 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
I think Lisin is absolutely horrendous with his decision making and as Rosen said, the final few strides, he whiffs on more shots in 1 10 game span than most players do for their entire careers. i mean, how many guys can burst past 3 guys with lightning like speed, get in a position to shoot, and completely whiff on the puck...time...and....time....again.

jesus christ its so frikkin horrible to watch. I mean, i get why people see the "upside" because clearly the kid has talent. if he didnt, he wouldnt be able to get in the position to do said whiffing. however, hes just so effing stupid out there, tries to go one on 3 when he should curl around the back of the net and wait, tries to stop and do god knows what when he shoudl have just blistered past a guy, tries to shoot when he should pass, tries to pass when he should shoot. I swear if you put Artem Anisimovs brain in Enver Lisins body, you'd have a perrenial 50 goal scorer on your hand. and likewise if you put Lisins brain in Anisimovs body, youd have a guy who couldnt find a job anywhere. Lisin has such unbelievable gifts but my god is so frikkin DUMB.
Inferno - I tend to agree with you much more often than not. With the intent of not being a person who jumps on a bandwagon about a paricular player, I try to watch a player over as many games as possible. I have actually really made an effort to watch Lisin and I have to agree with you; he just never seems to get it. I am not the greatest judge of hockey talent, i.e. I have no professional affiliation or credentials, but to me he does not seem to improve at all.

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Old
02-10-2010, 11:51 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by pwoz View Post
I hope we continue tanking. This franchise needs a wake up call.


We are not tanking, we are just unintentionally playing like crap...

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02-10-2010, 11:54 PM
  #156
trilobyte
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Right. I think what comes out of selling Prospal and others like Girardi, and Jokinen is a team that weaker and more inexperienced yet. Thus it is more likely to lose and position itself for a high pick.

In other words, as has been pointed out again and again, the high pick is not the target. It's the result of the action.
Okay, so this is where the rubber meets the road.

If, in selling, you lose those players that make your team it's best (in other words, by selling those players, you make your team worse) then I guess every seller is tanking.
Perhaps I am talking in terms of degree, or maybe what I'm really trying to express is how I will be unhappy to see some good young players go. I actually don't get a woody about Kovalchuk being a Ranger, mainly because big free agent signings scare me. Perhaps a Kovalchuk signing is the bees knees, not convinced. I would actually prefer to see Callahan, Dubinsky, Michael Del Zotto, Gilroy stay. To me, those are the guys that I consider NHL worthy and would like to watch as Rangers, while the team fills in. I am talking two to three years out.

Maybe it depends on what you want. I've followed the Rangers since 1966 and I'm happy to do two or three years in purgatory while I get the joy of not watching lumps like Redden and Rozsival make those mistakes, and instead watch guys like MDZ and Gilroy make those mistakes.


Last edited by trilobyte: 02-11-2010 at 12:22 AM.
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Old
02-10-2010, 11:54 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
I think Lisin is absolutely horrendous with his decision making and as Rosen said, the final few strides, he whiffs on more shots in 1 10 game span than most players do for their entire careers. i mean, how many guys can burst past 3 guys with lightning like speed, get in a position to shoot, and completely whiff on the puck...time...and....time....again.

jesus christ its so frikkin horrible to watch. I mean, i get why people see the "upside" because clearly the kid has talent. if he didnt, he wouldnt be able to get in the position to do said whiffing. however, hes just so effing stupid out there, tries to go one on 3 when he should curl around the back of the net and wait, tries to stop and do god knows what when he shoudl have just blistered past a guy, tries to shoot when he should pass, tries to pass when he should shoot. I swear if you put Artem Anisimovs brain in Enver Lisins body, you'd have a perrenial 50 goal scorer on your hand. and likewise if you put Lisins brain in Anisimovs body, youd have a guy who couldnt find a job anywhere. Lisin has such unbelievable gifts but my god is so frikkin DUMB.
See, I don't see it that way. I think he has enormous skills - speed, agility, physicality, shot... and I don't think he's that stupid when it comes to thinking the game. Frequently he tries to make the same move that a Kovalchuk or other uberskilled winger would make. And he does it well! He gets semi breaks and opportunities for clean shots all the time. The problem is that he can't keep the damn puck on his stick, so it all goes for naught (or, more specifically, skittering into the corner).

Tonight was a prime example: he had the Rangers two best scoring chances (and I'm including the one where they actually scored!), but in both cases he lost control of the puck - whiffing once and having it roll off of his stick once. That wasn't stupidity, that was simply blatant failure at controlling the puck. I think he has the speed, shot and instincts of a high-end goal scorer. But he can't keep the damn puck on his stick, so he will frustrate us as long as we have him.

I was in favor of the trade - and I'd do it again. IMO you always trade a guy who tops out as a good 3rd liner/PKer for a guy who has a shot at being a first line scorer. Good third liners can be had every July 1 for about $2-3MM. Top line scorers cost $7.5MM, are drafted or come through trades. So you take the chance on trading for a guy with that potential - understanding that more times than not he will wind up disappointing - and you don't look back.

In this case, however, I think we can officially say he's disappointed. I hope he goes on to prove me wrong in the next couple of months. If he wants to do so, he's going to have to take puck control lessons, get some circa 1980 stickum or something.

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02-11-2010, 12:02 AM
  #158
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I recall making a statement last year about Zherdev. Many were saying that he had Kovalev type talent. Yet, Kovalev made many very great plays, i.e. he completed what he attempted, while Zherdev almost made good, and it resulted in a turnover.

I'm not thumping for Kovalev, just used this as an example. If Lisin has the talent, how long should it be before he gets it together and he has a better percentage on what he attempts? So far, he does not show that he can finish, and he also does not show much inclination as a playmaker.

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02-11-2010, 12:21 AM
  #159
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I liked the Lisin trade at the time it was worth a shot. You would think someone with his skating ability would thrive playing in Torts system. He plays hard but it hasn't worked out. He is still a young player though he might eventually put it all together.

Rangers do miss Zherdev though. Say what you want about him but he did put up close to 60 points last year. His 20-25 goals a year would of really helped on this current team especially with his replacements like Kotalik and Lisin turning out to be busts.

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Old
02-11-2010, 02:10 AM
  #160
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Doesn't that leave you where you started?

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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
And its not about TANKING.

I hate that word. Its just about a realization. You want to set yourself up the best you can to succeed. Sometimes you have to take a step back to take one forward. It doesnt mean you have to abandon winning habits and the correct attitude to succeed in this league. It DOES mean to reassess your team correctly and do whats right by not wasting assets on foolish deals for what's becoming a pipe dream. Thats all I wish for

31 points in 22 games is going to be very difficult even with a favorable schedule. Unfortunately if you take a look ahead its not so easy.
Doesn't that leave you where you started?

I know what you meant, but it seems that is a recipe for mediocrity, which we Ranger fans have lived with for decades. Last night's game was brutal. They're playing a team that played the night before and it appeared to me the Preds had more jump and were better organized. The Rangers often looked like a Chinese fire drill. Honestly, Torturella needs to take some heat for the rudderless product on the ice (besides the obvious culprit). Where is his "system?" What's the game plan to maximize the "talent" on the team.

Oh, and the way he berated and emasculated Del Zotto on the bench after he got out of the box was painful to watch. This from a guy that got himself suspended from a potentially round clinching playoff game. Yeah, that works. Do as I say, not as I do.

I'll never, ever support a tank. But at this point I'm content for the Rangers to let the inevitable run its course. If we can remove the dead weight like Brash I'm cool with it.

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Old
02-11-2010, 03:39 AM
  #161
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Watching this team is like going to the dentist. Despite 38 shots, the Preds made life easy on Ellis, who looked like a world beater. Felt for DZ and Lundqvist.

A recap of the latest loss.

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Old
02-11-2010, 06:52 AM
  #162
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We are not tanking, we are just unintentionally playing like crap...
QFT...they are just this inept a team right now. If Gaborik is out any length of time, and/or Henke comes back fatigued from the Olympics, we have a recipe for disaster.

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02-11-2010, 07:30 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
that goal was not Rozsivals fault, that's just bad luck. Cally skated right in front of his only outlet, boards were covered, the middle was wide open. If cally wasnt there, we had a 4 minute kill. not blaming Cally either, just a bad luck play, nobodies fault.

IMHO Redden was simply PUTRID tonight, and almost all the defenseman not named Staal had various degrees of Putrescence in their game tonight.
Staal and Girardi played good games. They just need to be on the ice more,. when will they see that playing Rosie, MDZ and even Gilroy for offense is not working. They need the d to first get the puck to the forwards then follow the rush not lead the rush . We can't score goals. they all try to do it themselves. move the puck use the points . Don't they watch other teams that score goals.
Another thing we will go no where with /mdz and gilroy on defence.
Say all you want about the other 4 but they are handicapped by these 2.
Those 2 have to learn to play defence in the nhl first they leave their partner out to dry , they are like rovers and their partners have to figure out where to cover first.
so all the hate for Girardi and Redden I think they are not doing bad most of the time playing RT and LT d at the same time.

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Old
02-11-2010, 07:42 AM
  #164
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The offense is so anemic that Sam Rosen felt that he had to do a loud "SAVE by Ellis"! on Sean Averys 55 ft, unscreened wrist shot in the third.

ps..I think it was going wide anyway...

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02-11-2010, 08:50 AM
  #165
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2-8-0 over the last 10, same as Edmonton.

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02-11-2010, 08:53 AM
  #166
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Can someone please explain this to me? It said in the paper that last nights crowd of 13000 ended the Rangers sellout streak. How is that possible? Are they saying that the Rangers only sold 13,000 tix last night? How is that possible? There is no way they expect to get 5-7000 walk ups every game and only have about 11000 season ticket holders?
It makes no sense to me..And if it was just a turnstile count, then it would still be a sellout if the tix were sold..same with the Devs, 5500 last night but I know for a fact that they have a lot more season ticket holders than that. I don't think they've had a crowd under 11,000 all year (and avg about 15,000)

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02-11-2010, 09:14 AM
  #167
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Can someone please explain this to me? It said in the paper that last nights crowd of 13000 ended the Rangers sellout streak. How is that possible? Are they saying that the Rangers only sold 13,000 tix last night? How is that possible? There is no way they expect to get 5-7000 walk ups every game and only have about 11000 season ticket holders?
It makes no sense to me..And if it was just a turnstile count, then it would still be a sellout if the tix were sold..same with the Devs, 5500 last night but I know for a fact that they have a lot more season ticket holders than that. I don't think they've had a crowd under 11,000 all year (and avg about 15,000)
They were probably wrong. Maybe they meant otherwise, even though there aren't 18,200 in the crowd night in and night out. But I bet 18,200 tickets were sold as usual.

On a side note: Lisin is abysmal. The only thing the kid has is speed, that's it. Nada. Zilch. Let him go the KHL, that's where he ultimately belongs. There are so many spare parts on this team that I'd love to dump, sometimes I wish it was NHL 10 for one off-season so I can do what needs to be done.

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02-11-2010, 09:17 AM
  #168
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Rangers played well. Lundqvist was the way I want him to be all the time. The other goalie stills the game - end of story.

Every team that visits brings its best to MSG. They still respect the place. Not that Rangers do not anymore, they simply cannot play any better...

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02-11-2010, 09:25 AM
  #169
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Completely agree with you.

There's no guarantee this mythical fourth pick isn't going to turn out to be Pavel Brendl 2.0.

I'd be all for trading Prospal--but not for a pick! He's worth a solid defenseman. Same thing with Jokinen.

I'm amazed at so-called Ranger fans who want to go through 98-04 again, and this time try to do it "right".
Teams that would be interested in adding Jokinen or Prospal are doing so because they feel they have a shot in the post season. Teams like that are not going to part with a good defenseman for either of them. It's one thing if you're getting a Kovalchuk. But neither of them are close to that.

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02-11-2010, 09:28 AM
  #170
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I come home last night after a long day of plowing, excited to watch the DVR of Rangers/Preds and relax...

...what a let down.

Henrik was good though. And what's with all the penalties??

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02-11-2010, 09:35 AM
  #171
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well its officially reached the point where the only enjoyment Im going to get out of this season is watching the isles continue to lose. Thats my only source of hockey related happiness at this point.
Just when you think it cant get any worse, Roloson is breaking sticks and losing his mind in the crease, levels you right out.

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02-11-2010, 09:55 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
If, in selling, you lose those players that make your team it's best (in other words, by selling those players, you make your team worse) then I guess every seller is tanking.
Those who are desperate to make the playoffs will always characterize it thus, yes. (Although as I noted above, should the team actually become champions using this strategy, those who currently characterize such actions as "tanking" will almost certainly reverse themselves. When the Devils fans come shouting that the Rangers won by "tanking," these fellows will argue that there was no tanking at all; the team was merely "trimming dead wood.")

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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
Perhaps I am talking in terms of degree, or maybe what I'm really trying to express is how I will be unhappy to see some good young players go.
Youth-for-youth deals I don't mind, provided they serve the longterm interest of the team. (For instance, even though it was youth-for-youth, I hated the Zherdev deal last year because Z came with too many question marks, ALL of which came to fruition.)

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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
I actually don't get a woody about Kovalchuk being a Ranger, mainly because big free agent signings scare me.
Agreed but they don't "scare" me. I'm just sick to death of this team being defined by its free agent signings.

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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
I would actually prefer to see Callahan, Dubinsky, Michael Del Zotto, Gilroy stay. To me, those are the guys that I consider NHL worthy and would like to watch as Rangers, while the team fills in. I am talking two to three years out.
I agree on the time frame, and I think such a time frame allows for the drafting of an elite forward (most of whom develop quickly) at the top of his class. Of those you list, I like them all, but the only ones I would really hesitate to trade are MDZ and Callahan. With the right deal, Dubinsky or Gilroy could go and I wouldn't be terribly upset.

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02-11-2010, 10:07 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by HAPPY HOUR View Post
The offense is so anemic that Sam Rosen felt that he had to do a loud "SAVE by Ellis"! on Sean Averys 55 ft, unscreened wrist shot in the third.

ps..I think it was going wide anyway...
Look around the NHL folks, the Blueshirts offense is not so anemic as one would think

examples

Rangers: 153 goals for

Detroit: 153 goals for just loaded
Devils: 155 goals for one of the eastern co leaders
Calgary: 152 goals for Iginlia and co
Tampa: 150 goals for with Vinny, St Loius, Stamkos and co
Panthers: 155 goals for: great goalie leading them
Boston: 141 goals for: another strong eastern contender
st Louis: 155 goals for: remember the high flying blues last year
Montreal 160 goals for: high fyling habs scoring a tab better..
Buffalo 160 goals for: a great goalie leading the way

see the majority of the teams above are in the the eastern conference? The West has alot more goals for some reason

my point is this ranger squad is not some limp scoring team as the fans make them out to be and comparing them to the east they are right where everyone else is. The rangers have offensive talent in Gabby, prospal, Cally, Dubinsky, Avery and company along with solid solid defensive players in Drury, callahan added to a legit NHL defensive top six in Staal, Del Zotto, Girardi, Rozy, Redden and Gilroy. Take a long hard look at other NHL teams top six on D and the rangers stack up just fine. Look past their salaries for a change and one has to honestly see a team more than good enough to make the NHL playoffs and do some damage.

Are they elite, no way, a few things the rangers have, experience, skill, no major injuries, a coach that has won it all, all world class sniper and a great goalie. It's up to the rangers best players Lundqvist and Gabby to step and lead. The talent is more than enough to do some damage in the east. Enough with the excuses, just get it done

Steal some game and lets go

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02-11-2010, 10:45 AM
  #174
Inferno
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Originally Posted by mm11 View Post
Look around the NHL folks, the Blueshirts offense is not so anemic as one would think

examples

Rangers: 153 goals for

Detroit: 153 goals for just loaded
Devils: 155 goals for one of the eastern co leaders
Calgary: 152 goals for Iginlia and co
Tampa: 150 goals for with Vinny, St Loius, Stamkos and co
Panthers: 155 goals for: great goalie leading them
Boston: 141 goals for: another strong eastern contender
st Louis: 155 goals for: remember the high flying blues last year
Montreal 160 goals for: high fyling habs scoring a tab better..
Buffalo 160 goals for: a great goalie leading the way

see the majority of the teams above are in the the eastern conference? The West has alot more goals for some reason

my point is this ranger squad is not some limp scoring team as the fans make them out to be and comparing them to the east they are right where everyone else is. The rangers have offensive talent in Gabby, prospal, Cally, Dubinsky, Avery and company along with solid solid defensive players in Drury, callahan added to a legit NHL defensive top six in Staal, Del Zotto, Girardi, Rozy, Redden and Gilroy. Take a long hard look at other NHL teams top six on D and the rangers stack up just fine. Look past their salaries for a change and one has to honestly see a team more than good enough to make the NHL playoffs and do some damage.

Are they elite, no way, a few things the rangers have, experience, skill, no major injuries, a coach that has won it all, all world class sniper and a great goalie. It's up to the rangers best players Lundqvist and Gabby to step and lead. The talent is more than enough to do some damage in the east. Enough with the excuses, just get it done

Steal some game and lets go
see, the issue here is that 153 goals for wouldnt be so bad if it were spaced out nice and even. 2 or 3 goals a game is tolerable...with Henrik in net you'll win a helluva lot more than you will lose. the issue here is that we have like 10 games where we score 0 goals, and like 10 games where we scored like 50 goals...having those kinds of extremes isn't a great thing, especially when most of those goals are lumped into the first 10-12 games.

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02-11-2010, 10:47 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
I think Lisin is absolutely horrendous with his decision making and as Rosen said, the final few strides, he whiffs on more shots in 1 10 game span than most players do for their entire careers. i mean, how many guys can burst past 3 guys with lightning like speed, get in a position to shoot, and completely whiff on the puck...time...and....time....again.

jesus christ its so frikkin horrible to watch. I mean, i get why people see the "upside" because clearly the kid has talent. if he didnt, he wouldnt be able to get in the position to do said whiffing. however, hes just so effing stupid out there, tries to go one on 3 when he should curl around the back of the net and wait, tries to stop and do god knows what when he shoudl have just blistered past a guy, tries to shoot when he should pass, tries to pass when he should shoot. I swear if you put Artem Anisimovs brain in Enver Lisins body, you'd have a perrenial 50 goal scorer on your hand. and likewise if you put Lisins brain in Anisimovs body, youd have a guy who couldnt find a job anywhere. Lisin has such unbelievable gifts but my god is so frikkin DUMB.
For any of the other old-timers here, Lisin is a slightly slower and less effective player than Gene Carr was. That is no easy accomplishment.

Good players make the game seem slower because they can think and react very quickly. Lisin always is going faster than he can process which makes him appear to be in panic mode.


Last edited by chosen: 02-11-2010 at 10:52 AM.
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