i would forfit(be willing to give up) our next 10 years of first round picks if this was our team , WHO are all SECOND ROUND PICKS.
what so valuable about a second rouid pick your ask?go tell the Bruins fans you will give them a second rounder for Lucic .Go tell the Blues fans you will given them a 2nd for
Milan Lucic
James Neal
Paul Stastny
Guillaume Latendresse
Dave Bolland Blake
Comeau Enver Lisin
David Booth
David Krejci
Brandon Dubinsky
Loui Eriksson
Patrice Bergeron
Shea Weber
B.J. Crombeen
David Backes
Patrick O'Sullivan
Jarret Stoll
Matt Greene
Duncan Keith
Derek Roy
Mike Cammalleri
Jason Pominville
Ilya Bryzgalov
Antoine Vermette
Paul Martin
Jordan Leopold
I can give you a bigger list with all no-names... And how many years these players spend before to reach the NHL???
Also, 2011 = weak draft like 1999. Here's all 2nd round picks of 1999 who played more than 100 NHL games:
Alexei Semenov
Alex Auld
Sheldon Keefe
Mike Commodore
Jordan Leopold
Adam Hall
Andrew Hutchinson
Doug Janik
Mike Zigomanis
I don't think it's a terrible trade, but it seems like a trade that a contending team would make. This isn't that team - IMO, this organization doesn't seem to know that this team just isn't built to go deep in the playoffs, and that's too bad.
You're not giving up said players, but you're giving up a possibility of getting such players.
If you enter the draft with less picks, you're less likely to get good players out of that draft. That's pretty simple. If we're giving up a few more picks without getting any back until the 2011 draft, we could very well have nothing more than some fringe NHLers out of those 2 drafts. Not what's good for long-term success.
I'll just counter quickly we'll likely be getting a few assets for one of Hammer/ Spacek because there is no way we let Pleks walk for nothing, we need Cap space bad and Spacek/ Hammer are writing there tickets out of here right now because we can probably rely on subban making the jump next year. With Gill/Gorges/OByrne/Markov all locked up and Spacek/Hammer possibilities to go Subban could make the jump very easily and could start in a very limited role on the 3rd pairing if need be
He has 15 points in 45 games this season. He's averaging roughly 19 minutes of ice time a game (it's not like he's getting really low No. 6 D numbers).
That does not add up to "a bust". Not even remotely close.
Ottawa gave up two pretty good assets in order to get Cullen. They gave up significantly more to get Cullen than what we gave up for Moore.
To be frank, I feel vindicated over my earlier defenses of the Moore deal.
NHL GMs simply do not value 2nd round picks as highly as a lot of people on these boards do, and these two most recent NHL trades pretty much proves it. Now, you can say that the NHL GMs are all crazy for thinking that way about 2nd round picks, but signaling out Gauthier is silly to me. He's not approaching 2nd round picks much differently than other NHL GMs are.
Overpriced but talented quality players are more tradeable than many people think they are (i.e. Gomez, Blake, Kotalik, Oduya, etc...).
And picks after the 1st round simply aren't as valued as highly as they are by most people here.
He has 15 points in 45 games this season. He's averaging roughly 19 minutes of ice time a game (it's not like he's getting really low No. 6 D numbers).
That does not add up to "a bust". Not even remotely close.
Ottawa gave up two pretty good assets in order to get Cullen. They gave up significantly more to get Cullen than what we gave up for Moore.
To be frank, I feel vindicated over my earlier defenses of the Moore deal.
NHL GMs simply do not value 2nd round picks as highly as a lot of people on these boards do, and these two most recent NHL trades pretty much proves it. Now, you can say that the NHL GMs are all crazy for thinking that way about 2nd round picks, but signaling out Gauthier is silly to me. He's not approaching 2nd round picks much differently than other NHL GMs are.
Overpriced but talented quality players are more tradeable than many people think they are (i.e. Gomez, Blake, Kotalik, Oduya, etc...).
And picks after the 1st round simply aren't as valued as highly as they are by most people here.
The key is that Ottawa has played 60 games and he's played in 45 of those. He's been a healthy scratch lately and deemed expendable.
He has 15 points in 45 games this season. He's averaging roughly 19 minutes of ice time a game (it's not like he's getting really low No. 6 D numbers).
That does not add up to "a bust". Not even remotely close.
Ottawa gave up two pretty good assets in order to get Cullen. They gave up significantly more to get Cullen than what we gave up for Moore.
To be frank, I feel vindicated over my earlier defenses of the Moore deal.
NHL GMs simply do not value 2nd round picks as highly as a lot of people on these boards do, and these two most recent NHL trades pretty much proves it. Now, you can say that the NHL GMs are all crazy for thinking that way about 2nd round picks, but signaling out Gauthier is silly to me. He's not approaching 2nd round picks much differently than other NHL GMs are.
Overpriced but talented quality players are more tradeable than many people think they are (i.e. Gomez, Blake, Kotalik, Oduya, etc...).
And picks after the 1st round simply aren't as valued as highly as they are by most people here.
Habs got a 4th rounder for a guy they would have lost on waivers (Chipchura)
so I feel REALLY good about getting a good faceoff man, good shudown man (two things we lacked... unless you want to continue playing Gomez 26 minutes and ask him to shut down the opposition instead of keeping him fresh and asking him to generate offense.) for "only" a 2nd round pick in 2011. That's in two drafts. We have a lot of time to get back a 2nd round pick.
You're not giving up said players, but you're giving up a possibility of getting such players.
If you enter the draft with less picks, you're less likely to get good players out of that draft. That's pretty simple. If we're giving up a few more picks without getting any back until the 2011 draft, we could very well have nothing more than some fringe NHLers out of those 2 drafts. Not what's good for long-term success.
He does have a point, and I'm not telling him or anyone else that they have to like this deal. I'm not even sure if 100% like this deal myself. I just feel it's way too early to be jumping to conclusions.
Okay people should start making the difference between talking about it, disagreeing with the move and TOTALLY FREAKING OUT BECAUSE OF IT.
I'm personnally not implying that we're a worst team, that this trade will definately set the Habs back by 10 years and so on.....still, Moore was just not on my wish list and I believe in top picks in a draft to build a team. Yes 2011 looks right now as a weak one.
Though as far as the analysis of a draft year, I don't know how accurate that is, but I found that on the net as far as 1999....Knowing how it turned out, not sure we can actually, say how a 2nd round pick was not needed in 2011.
Quote:
The 1999 NHL Entry Draft was held on June 26 at the FleetCenter in Boston, Massachusetts. According to Sports Illustrated and other sports news agencies,at the time the 1999 draft was considered one of the deepest in talent in years, headed by Patrik Stefan and the Sedin twins.[citation needed] However, the overall productivity and impact in the NHL has proved considerably lower compared to neighbouring drafts.[citation needed] The draft's best players include Buffalo's Ryan Miller who was selected in the fifth round, as well as Henrik Zetterberg who was selected 210th overall (eighth round). Zetterberg is the lowest NHL Draft pick to win the Conn Smythe Trophy.[1]
He does have a point, and I'm not telling him or anyone else that they have to like this deal. I'm not even sure if 100% like this deal myself. I just feel it's way too early to be jumping to conclusions.
I think you know it's useless to tell people not to jump to conclusions around here.
I don't mind this deal, it adds a little more depth and we need that. Obviously, if that's the only move done this year though, I have to wonder just how important it's actually going to be.
A lot of people underestimate our team though.
Plek-Gomez-Gionta-Cammy-A.Kost-S.Kost-Pouliot, seriously, if we can remain healthy we have a very good one-two punch to hopefully go into POs with. What's important, is to have a solid 3rd and 4th line that will be able to furfill their roles.
If our goalies perform as well as they have so far this year, I think we could surprise some teams going down the stretch and into the POs.
If Martin could adapt his system to his players, I'm happy with our team. Every time we play a more offensively aggressive game, we perform much better.
We have the ingredients of a good team, we just need to stay healthy and execute the proper system.
First mistake by Gauthier for sure. Moore is a guy you sign for nothing in the summer.
Why wasnt a search done for a GM ?
The biggest issue facing us is drafting 5-10 overall and then the Price or Halak trade
before the deadline. I had every confidence Gainey would screw that up like the
disastrous Gomez deal. I am wondering now about Gauthier.
This GM likely just gave up 35-40 overall pick in 2011 for an add-on cut of the Maple Leafs. Leafs GM acquires a horse like Phaneuf while we get their cuts for 2nd rounders. Cripes !
As an aside, was at the game on Saturday against Pittsburgh. Halak started, big cheers. They announced Price dressed as backup, entire building booed him.
They hate him in Montreal.
First mistake by Gauthier for sure. Moore is a guy you sign for nothing in the summer.
Why wasnt a search done for a GM ?
The biggest issue facing us is drafting 5-10 overall and then the Price or Halak trade
before the deadline. I had every confidence Gainey would screw that up like the
disastrous Gomez deal. I am wondering now about Gauthier.
This GM likely just gave up 35-40 overall pick in 2011 for an add-on cut of the Maple Leafs. Leafs GM acquires a horse like Phaneuf while we get their cuts for 2nd rounders. Cripes !
As an aside, was at the game on Saturday against Pittsburgh. Halak started, big cheers. They announced Price dressed as backup, entire building booed him.
They hate him in Montreal.
This isn't the summer so you can't go out and sign Moore, he belonged to Florida...and he wasn't fixing our need for a 3rd line center on their team.
For all the negative talk on here about the Gomez deal, he's been a very good player for us this year. We are stronger at center than last year with Gomez and a rejuvenated Pleks, adding Moore could allow those 2 to play more exclusively in offensive situations.
Phaneuf does play like a horse, the only problem is hockey is played by humans and horses have very poor decision making on ice
Fair enough, but what makes this 2nd round pick so valuable? I know it's been brought up that Subban, Kristo, Latendresse etc...have been drafted by 2nd round picks. Who's to say that those type(s) of players will be available when the time comes to use that pick?
It looks like Gauthier is prepping the team for a shot at the playoffs. To help accomplish this, we needed to strengthen our bottom 6. Now Moore probably wouldn't have been my first choice. But the bottom line is, our bottom 6 is stronger after this trade, than it was before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price
No doubt 2nd round picks are valuable. I don't disagree that this was somewhat of an overpayment, however he fills a big need. Right now we have no real checking line, stick Moore with Moen and Lapierre/SK and you have a quality NHL checking line. He acn kill penalities and get a lot of taht off Plekanec's plate, freeing him up for a more offensive role. Same for key faceoffs, he can take some stress off Gomez and Pleks there also. Metro is not big enough or good enough defensively to play that role.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le depisteur
He's maybe a bust, but he was also the 4th D in a very good Ottawa team...
Ottawa 2010 2nd round + Picard is 2 times better than our 2011 2nd round...
Moore >>> Maxwell => our bottom 6 is better.
In one day Gauthier improved two areas that most posters in here consider as our main woes in 2009-10:
(1) A lack of puck moving D – bonus: he is right handed! PK Subban up... though it's probably just a precautionary (Markov and Gorges) measure.
(2) Poor contribution of our lines 3 and 4. Moore is a great FO man and he will be able to shoulder the workload on PK: we don't want to overuse Plekanec – almost 5 minutes of PK duties against WAS and one of the busiest (8th) forwards in the league in terms of PK TOI:
NHL GMs simply do not value 2nd round picks as highly as a lot of people on these boards do, and these two most recent NHL trades pretty much proves it. Now, you can say that the NHL GMs are all crazy for thinking that way about 2nd round picks, but signaling out Gauthier is silly to me. He's not approaching 2nd round picks much differently than other NHL GMs are.
Overpriced but talented quality players are more tradeable than many people think they are (i.e. Gomez, Blake, Kotalik, Oduya, etc...).
And picks after the 1st round simply aren't as valued as highly as they are by most people here.
THIS
I think it comes down to psychological issues for a lot of fans.
Since a lot of the more moronic and pathetic fans tend to be losers who live vicariously through the team, they want the team to reflect their desperate fantasies. I'm sure a lot of these people are also 6/49 players, and to them the draft parallels their lottery playing, where every draft pick represents a chance to escape their miserable situation, pick the next Zetterberg in the 7th round. This completely in willful ignorance of the actual odds of finding decent NHLers, let alone allstars deep in the draft (even past the 1st round). NHL GMs know the actual value of draft picks, fans (especially HF internet fanatics) add a large emotional premium to this value.
Hopefully the guys who went all jihad yesterday have the humility to cram it for a while. I doubt it tho, they'll probably just head to the nearest halak vs price thread.
Fair enough, but what makes this 2nd round pick so valuable? I know it's been brought up that Subban, Kristo, Latendresse etc...have been drafted by 2nd round picks. Who's to say that those type(s) of players will be available when the time comes to use that pick?
I don't believe in cherry picking great players from the 2nd round as I don't think its an accurate portrayal of what you'll get. So let's take a look at Montreal's 2nd rounders from 2007-2000
07- Subban (too soon to say)
06- Maxwell, Carle (too soon to say)
05- Latendresse (good player)
04 - none (Yemelin in 3rd round)
03- Lapierre, Urquhart (1 good player, 1 bust)
02- Linhart (bust)
01- Milroy (bust)
00- none
Our drafting is much better than most teams. Most of the guys up there are good players or are prospects who could be good. I don't think a few months (or a few years for that matter) of Dominic Moore is worth this kind of player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs10Habs
It looks like Gauthier is prepping the team for a shot at the playoffs. To help accomplish this, we needed to strengthen our bottom 6. Now Moore probably wouldn't have been my first choice. But the bottom line is, our bottom 6 is stronger after this trade, than it was before.
I don't think it's much stronger, if at all. Moore is a marginal player who's been on waivers once already in his career. And he's 29, its not like there's some kind of unfulfilled promise here.
And if our plan is to try for short term gains via a rental player, why not go after somebody better. There's got to be a better rental player available for a 2nd round pick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price
No doubt 2nd round picks are valuable. I don't disagree that this was somewhat of an overpayment, however he fills a big need. Right now we have no real checking line, stick Moore with Moen and Lapierre/SK and you have a quality NHL checking line. He acn kill penalities and get a lot of taht off Plekanec's plate, freeing him up for a more offensive role. Same for key faceoffs, he can take some stress off Gomez and Pleks there also. Metro is not big enough or good enough defensively to play that role.
Moore isn't really great defensively either. He's a hardworking scrub. He's not Carbo or Skrudland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldthorpe
You understand that the majority of second round picks never amount to anything? That listing a big list of successful 2nd round picks is completely bankrupt as an argument? Please tell me you understand that.
Go look at the list that I provided that shows what our typical 2nd round picks look like. We are well above average in this area and when we trade away picks we mitigate the one area of strength that we do have over other teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs10Habs
He does have a point, and I'm not telling him or anyone else that they have to like this deal. I'm not even sure if 100% like this deal myself. I just feel it's way too early to be jumping to conclusions.
We don't have to wait until that 2nd round player is drafted and retires to make a value judgement on this.
Based on what we know about Moore and the value that we've gotten out of 2nd round picks in the past, this is a bad trade.
No, it's not the end of the world if it's just an isolated move. My worry is that it's the start of a trend because really... this move didn't make a whole lot of sense for us.
Go look at the list that I provided that shows what our typical 2nd round picks look like. We are well above average in this area and when we trade away picks we mitigate the one area of strength that we do have over other teams.
2011 is supposed to be a crappy draft. Maybe Gauthier doesn't believe it will be like a typical year.
- Excellent on faceoffs, winning 55.8%
- Can play both center and wing
- Lots of energy
- Excellent skater
- very decent defensively
- can contribute some secondary scoring
- only 7 giveaways and 27 takeaways this year
- can be used to kill penalties
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy
Maybe. I hadn't heard that it was crappy though. Are we looking at another 1996?
There have a number of reports stating that it's a very weak draft. Look for a post in the original Moore thread... Someone put some quotes in there.
You're not giving up said players, but you're giving up a possibility of getting such players.
If you enter the draft with less picks, you're less likely to get good players out of that draft. That's pretty simple. If we're giving up a few more picks without getting any back until the 2011 draft, we could very well have nothing more than some fringe NHLers out of those 2 drafts. Not what's good for long-term success.
I have a feeling we'll get some picks back at the deadline. I think either Metropolit or Lapierre will be traded.
I hope the second rounders are as bad as the 1999 draft(the worst in a while).
29. Michal Sivek - Washington Capitals
30. Luke Sellars - Atlanta Thrashers
31. Charlie Stephens - Washington Capitals
32. Michael Ryan - Dallas Stars
33. Jonas Andersson - Nashville Predators
34. Ross Lupaschuk - Washington Capitals
35. Milan Bartovic - Buffalo Sabres
36. Alexei Semenov - Edmonton Oilers
37. Nolan Yonkman - Washington Capitals
38. Dan Cavanaugh - Calgary Flames
39. Alexander Buturlin - Montreal Canadiens
40. Alex Auld - Florida Panthers
41. Tony Salmelainen - Edmonton Oilers
42. Mike Commodore - New Jersey Devils
43. Andrei Shefer - Los Angeles Kings
44. Jordan Leopold - Mighty Ducks of Anaheim
45. Martin Grenier - Colorado Avalanche
46. Dmitri Levinski - Chicago Blackhawks
47. Sheldon Keefe - Tampa Bay Lightning
48. Simon Lajeunesse - Ottawa Senators
49. Brett Lysak - Carolina Hurricanes
50. Brett Clouthier - New Jersey Devils
51. Matt Murley - Pittsburgh Penguins
52. Adam Hall - Nashville Predators
53. Brad Ralph - Phoenix Coyotes
54. Andrew Hutchinson - Nashville Predators
55. Doug Janik - Buffalo Sabres
56. Matt Zultek - Boston Bruins
57. Jeremy Van Hoof - Pittsburgh Penguins
58. Matt Carkner - Montreal Canadiens
59. David Inman - New York Rangers
60. Peter Reynolds - Toronto Maple Leafs
61. Ed Hill - Nashville Predators
62. Teemu Sainomaa - Ottawa Senators
63. Stepan Mokhov - Chicago Blackhawks
64. Michael Zigomanis - Buffalo Sabres
65. Jan Lasak - Nashville Predators
66. Dan Jancevski - Dallas Stars
I'm going to change into my Stepan Mokvov jersey now, that or my Jeremy Van Hoof jersey. I can't decide.
I hate this trade. Even though we are technically in 6th place, we really are in 9th place and we shouldn't be giving up assets at this point imo. To me, the trade screams I want to put my stamp on the team and make a push for the playoffs so I don't look like a failure in my first year.
However this year has been a write off largely due to injuries. It was also a bonding / chemistry year imo. We have a new core and I don't expect them to do miracles in year 1, but I love how this team has persevered through the injuries and find a way to stay in the hunt.
I hate giving up assets for a bottom 6 player when all year long, we complained about needing a top 6 player. And for just a little more than the 2nd round pic that we gave up, we could have had a top 6 player in Ponikarovsky.
