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Habs trade 2nd rounder (2011) for Dominic Moore Part II

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Old
02-12-2010, 08:50 PM
  #76
TinordiandSubban
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I don't think so. Most fans screamed bloody murder when Latendresse was traded. They had no idea how good Pouliot is. They undervalue Metropolit. They didn't know how bad the Laraque signing was. They exaggerate SKost's potential. They were slow to realize that O'Byrne was gradually turning into a good player.
Yea but did you see that Subban kid?

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02-12-2010, 09:36 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I don't think so. Most fans screamed bloody murder when Latendresse was traded. They had no idea how good Pouliot is. They undervalue Metropolit. They didn't know how bad the Laraque signing was. They exaggerate SKost's potential. They were slow to realize that O'Byrne was gradually turning into a good player.
Not many fans complained when lats was traded, he was playing terribly, and the whole sleeping in late fiasco made him look even worse. People complained after he started tearing it up in minny. Then people calmed down after we realized that Pouliot is a somewhat distant relative to God.

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Old
02-12-2010, 11:41 PM
  #78
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You know, after having awhile to think about this...I still hate the trade.

I don't hate Moore, he's just simply not worth a 2nd round pick. Especially when you consider he'll be a UFA this summer.

Even in a crappy draft year, a 2nd is too much IMO.
A 2011 second round pick probably equal a 2010 third round pick. The draft is supposed to be that bad. I don't think it's that bad. And who knows, maybe we'll be able to trade some players for picks...

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02-12-2010, 11:56 PM
  #79
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The way I see it:

Domenic Moore: 1
2011 2nd Round Draft Pick: 0

At least Moore has a few years (or months) to build up a bit of a lead.

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Old
02-13-2010, 12:28 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Habs10Habs View Post
Don't be ridiculous, you know that's not what I meant.
I know that's not what you meant but I'm pushing your argument to it's logical conclusion.

You can't just sit there and say "well we don't know what the 2nd pick is going to be so it doesn't have value..." and that's kind of what you're trying to do here.
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Originally Posted by Habs10Habs View Post
So you're making an assumption based on things that happened in the past? Wouldn't it make more sense to at least give the trade sometime to see if it's a positive or a negative?
The best predictor of future performance is past performance. If 1st overall picks generate superstars on a consistent basis then the odds are that getting one is a good idea. No, it doesn't guarantee success but you can't just ignore those kinds of trends.

Based on how we've drafted with 2nd rounders, I'd say we've done very well and Moore isn't worth giving it up.

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Originally Posted by Habs10Habs View Post
I know you long for the day that the Habs perform a true rebuild. But what's done is done, let's at least see how it goes before ripping it apart.
I'm not going to bring up the rebuild here, I'm just saying that Moore isn't worth a 2nd rounder. Esp when our prospect pool is drying up, he's a UFA and we're looking like we're going to miss the playoffs anyway. And to top it all off, I don't see him as being what we need to sneak into 8th so even from that perspective I don't think it was a pick well spent.

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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
question, would you be taking the same line regardless of what we gave up?

for example, had it been a 1st round pick, would you still be saying "let's wait and see"?

and then I suppose the other question is "How long do you wait to see?"

if we wait long enough, we could see that the 2nd pick they end up with is a total bust and never plays a game in the NHL... would that make this a good trade in your eyes?

or conversely, the pick could turn into a Patrice Bergeron or Shea Weber... would that make it a bad trade?

I think both of those cases involves way too much hindsight to be fair, either way.

So really, with Draft picks, it is all about the value, right now.

Is/Was Dominic Moore, UFA to-be, struggling through one of his worst seasons as a pro, worth a 2nd round pick to a team that, with or without him, is a borderline playoff team?

you don't have to "wait and see" to find the answer to that one (especially since Buffalo, a team in a similar position as us a year ago - and arguably better in terms of having much more flexibility to re-sign Moore if he panned out well- gave up the same asset to get the same player, with the KEY difference being that said player was in the midst of a career year, vs in being in the midst of a career worst year).

philosophically, it makes more sense if one ascribes to the "make the playoffs no matter what" idea, but otherwise it's pretty clearly a bad deal.

and it is pretty clear that this board is more or less split between the idea that this franchise should just keep trucking along, business as usual, and those who feel that the way we've been doing things (and the results that have followed) aren't good enough.
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There's a huge difference between a 1st rounder and a 2nd.
Is Moore worth a 2nd??..Many don't seem to believe so.
a 3rd??..Maybe..etc..
Again, go look at what our average 2nd rounder looks like. Moore isn't worth it.

Now, if next year's draft is really that terrible then maybe that factored into the decision. Personally though, I still wouldn't value Moore that high.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
H10H isn't saying he's worth it or not. Just comes down to us adding some depth for the 3rd line. We needed some, and that's why we went after Moore. Now, individually, I don't think he's worth a 2nd round pick.
But if (far fetched) we end up making the POs, and go through to Conference Finals with Moore playing a very important checking role, would he have been worth that pick???..

What's done is done, let's hope Moore can play well here. Now, we have to wait to see how well/poor he'll perform in order to truly evaluate this trade.
We have no choice but to wait and see. But I'm not afraid to say that I don't like this move and I esp don't like the direction that it seems to signify that the team is going to be taking.
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Originally Posted by Natural Habs Fan View Post
The way I see it:

Domenic Moore: 1
2011 2nd Round Draft Pick: 0

At least Moore has a few years (or months) to build up a bit of a lead.
A few years back I heard the same things from Leaf fans with the Rask/Raycroft trade.

They kept saying that Raycroft had already accomplished something and 'who knows if Rask will ever even play?'

Fast forward a few years later and Rask is developing very nicely and Raycroft is the scrub that most of us knew he would be. So yes, miracles happen but you can't just sluff off a prospect or pick the way some folks have. As for the 'few years' that you're expecting from Moore, he's a UFA. He might only have a few weeks to build up that lead that you're talking about.


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Old
02-13-2010, 12:36 AM
  #81
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If Moore can help the Habs get into the 2010 playoffs I couldn't care less about Mr. Second Rounder in 2011. For all we know he could the the second coming of Corey Urquhart. Wanting to hoard every prospect and every draft pick bespeaks an anal retentive personality.

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Old
02-13-2010, 12:48 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Corey View Post
If Moore can help the Habs get into the 2010 playoffs I couldn't care less about Mr. Second Rounder in 2011. For all we know he could the the second coming of Corey Urquhart. Wanting to hoard every prospect and every draft pick bespeaks an anal retentive personality.
And giving no value to every prospect and every draft pick turns you into the Leafs.

As for us making the playoffs, it's not looking good right now. And I don't think Moore is really going to make any kind of difference either way.

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Old
02-13-2010, 12:57 AM
  #83
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Again, even if Moore scores 100 goals in 20 games that does not change the fact that we OVERPAID.

It's like saying, I spent 5,000 on a car that should of been bought at 2,500 dollar car, but it lasted me a long time, and was very reliable... !!!!

Who gives a ****?


You could of used the extra 2,500 to get a paint job, go on a trip, buy a new Macbook

IE: giving away our assets for no reasons, assets that have value, that can be used or SOLD (traded) for their true worth.

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Old
02-13-2010, 01:16 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Corey View Post
If Moore can help the Habs get into the 2010 playoffs I couldn't care less about Mr. Second Rounder in 2011. For all we know he could the the second coming of Corey Urquhart. Wanting to hoard every prospect and every draft pick bespeaks an anal retentive personality.
I think this is the biggest problem with posters and fans in general. They think that every pick we draft is supposed to one day don the CH. Its just not the case. Picks are, for the most part, selling pieces to make your team better, whether you keep them or trade them. It's just the nature of the game now. I have no doubt in my mind that we won't go out there eventually and regain draft picks over the next couple of years--things have a way of balancing themselves out. Unless you're trading away important picks, like early 1st rounders, you shouldn't get your panties in a twist over losing a pick. Especially when your farm team is doing such a great job of developing the picks we already have.

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Old
02-13-2010, 01:25 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Corey View Post
If Moore can help the Habs get into the 2010 playoffs I couldn't care less about Mr. Second Rounder in 2011. For all we know he could the the second coming of Corey Urquhart. Wanting to hoard every prospect and every draft pick bespeaks an anal retentive personality.
Drafting is about landing gems on occasion, you know?

I guess you don't.

Just look at are line-up, and delete the guys that were drafted by us in the 2nd round or higher

Plek - 3rd round GEM
Markov - 6th GEM
Lapierre - 2nd (Ya, 3rd, 4th liner... but would you put him on waivers? Don't think so.)
SKost - 7th Quasi GEM
Weber - 3rd round (unproven right - but would you give him away for free? Don't think so) Quasi Gem
Subban - 2nd round GEM

So, good scouting + some luck will always = Will result in useful players (and sometimes Gems).... of course, more picks you have, more chances of that happening.

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Old
02-13-2010, 01:31 AM
  #86
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We're becoming the bloody Leafs, clinging on some scraps to make the first round and make money while you gauge your fans. This is unacceptable.

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Old
02-13-2010, 02:13 AM
  #87
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Do we really know how good this team is? Have we ever been able to ice a completely healthy lineup for a string of 5 or more games?
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Old
02-13-2010, 02:21 AM
  #88
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Do we really know how good this team is? Have we ever been able to ice a completely healthy lineup for a string of 5 or more games?
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hard to say, exactly, but injuries are a part of the game, every team deals with them...

besides that, when it comes down to it, do you honestly think this team, fully healthy, could compete with Washington, Pittsburgh or New Jersey in a 7 game series?

I don't see it.

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02-13-2010, 03:17 AM
  #89
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hard to say, exactly, but injuries are a part of the game, every team deals with them...

besides that, when it comes down to it, do you honestly think this team, fully healthy, could compete with Washington, Pittsburgh or New Jersey in a 7 game series?

I don't see it.
BS

Teams do not deal with them equally and at the end of the year they can make or break a team and determiner wether its a playoff or lottery team. ''injuries are not an excuse'' is the kind of thing coaches say to motivate their teams, I wish people used common sense instead of buying into this.

Fact is this team, if healthy, can possibly upset one of the top teams. Its unlikely but its possible, we'd need a bit of luck (injuries can happen to other teams you know, lets say we face Washington... with Ovechkin injured) and a hot goalie (remember the Phillie series, we had twice as many shots as they had yet we lost due to Biron playing way over his head. all season long our goalies have accomplished similar feats and might accomplish it in the playoffs).

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Old
02-13-2010, 06:14 AM
  #90
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Why is it BS when you basicly say the same thing - "can possibly upset" and "we need a bit of luck".

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Old
02-13-2010, 06:34 AM
  #91
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Moore = PPG

Get another tonight Dom

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Old
02-13-2010, 07:52 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Again, even if Moore scores 100 goals in 20 games that does not change the fact that we OVERPAID.

It's like saying, I spent 5,000 on a car that should of been bought at 2,500 dollar car, but it lasted me a long time, and was very reliable... !!!!

Who gives a ****?


You could of used the extra 2,500 to get a paint job, go on a trip, buy a new Macbook

IE: giving away our assets for no reasons, assets that have value, that can be used or SOLD (traded) for their true worth.
WTF ..

I bet next year Gauthier will trade either spacek or Hamrlik and get a new second round pick, and all of the sudden, everyone will stop complaining ..

You guys are just pissed for nothing ..

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Old
02-13-2010, 08:50 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Do we really know how good this team is? Have we ever been able to ice a completely healthy lineup for a string of 5 or more games?
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This is my point, this is why pissing away assets now is a mistake. We haven't iced a full team for 5 games, heck for 2 games would be accurate. We're virtually in 9th place, this isn't the year to be spending assets to fight for 8th place.

If we had a solid grasp on 6th place and had a decent year, it would be OK, but as it stands now, its just a waste imo.

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Old
02-13-2010, 08:56 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And giving no value to every prospect and every draft pick turns you into the Leafs.

As for us making the playoffs, it's not looking good right now. And I don't think Moore is really going to make any kind of difference either way.
I mostly agree with you about this being an overpay, and an unnecessary one because centers ain't what we need, but I should say, since Moore has scored one goal already, even if he doesn't score another and just plays defensively for the rest of the season, he's had a positive impact. That pick had tons of potential, but if we're looking to make the playoffs now, we need to trade away some of our potential for goals and defense. (An OFD or maybe a solid winger or a veteran goalie would be much better, but WHATCHA GONNA DO?

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02-13-2010, 09:39 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Again, even if Moore scores 100 goals in 20 games that does not change the fact that we OVERPAID.

It's like saying, I spent 5,000 on a car that should of been bought at 2,500 dollar car, but it lasted me a long time, and was very reliable... !!!!

Who gives a ****?


You could of used the extra 2,500 to get a paint job, go on a trip, buy a new Macbook

IE: giving away our assets for no reasons, assets that have value, that can be used or SOLD (traded) for their true worth.
Except that a car and these things are not interchangeable. If you really need a car then a new Macbook is pretty useless. If the car provides better value than what you paid for it then it was a good buy regardless of what you think it was worth when you bought it.

Besides, no one buys a good car for only $2500 unless you're buying from friends or family who will give you a major discount.

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IE: giving away our assets for no reasons, assets that have value, that can be used or SOLD (traded) for their true worth.
We didn't give away an asset for no reason. We traded a future asset, a second round draft pick in 2011, for an asset that we can use today, right now.

One of our weakest areas this year has been a lack of depth in the bottom 6 forwards. Moore is better than anyone we have used to this date. He has 9 goals this year, not a lot at first glance, until you realize he is now only second to Metropolit (w 13 goals) among our bottom 6 players.

Moore is also one of the top face-off guys in the league, and face-offs are another one of our problems. Plus, he can help out with PK duty.

With Moen-Metropolit-Moore we may actually have a 3rd line that can pop a few goals while playing strong defensively. Something we have lacked all year.

It's hardly a terrible trade.

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02-13-2010, 09:54 AM
  #96
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A few years back I heard the same things from Leaf fans with the Rask/Raycroft trade.

They kept saying that Raycroft had already accomplished something and 'who knows if Rask will ever even play?'

Fast forward a few years later and Rask is developing very nicely and Raycroft is the scrub that most of us knew he would be. So yes, miracles happen but you can't just sluff off a prospect or pick the way some folks have. As for the 'few years' that you're expecting from Moore, he's a UFA. He might only have a few weeks to build up that lead that you're talking about.
Rask was already drafted when he was traded to the Bruins, he was part of the Leafs organization. He wasn't some future, unknown and unpicked 2nd round draft pick.

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02-13-2010, 09:59 AM
  #97
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Rask was already drafted when he was traded to the Bruins, he was part of the Leafs organization. He wasn't some future, unknown and unpicked 2nd round draft pick.
Bon point, 417. Bon point.

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02-13-2010, 10:06 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
BS

Teams do not deal with them equally and at the end of the year they can make or break a team and determiner wether its a playoff or lottery team. ''injuries are not an excuse'' is the kind of thing coaches say to motivate their teams, I wish people used common sense instead of buying into this.

Fact is this team, if healthy, can possibly upset one of the top teams. Its unlikely but its possible, we'd need a bit of luck (injuries can happen to other teams you know, lets say we face Washington... with Ovechkin injured) and a hot goalie (remember the Phillie series, we had twice as many shots as they had yet we lost due to Biron playing way over his head. all season long our goalies have accomplished similar feats and might accomplish it in the playoffs).
that says it all... (and if you actually read my post, your amazing common sense skills should have been able to see that i said EXACTLY THE SAME THING!)

injuries or not, this team isn't in the same league as the top teams in the conference, despite spending to the cap.

and if you think it's "BS" that injuries are a part of the game that every team deals with... well then I guess we have a different understanding of what common sense is.

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Old
02-13-2010, 11:28 AM
  #99
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We're becoming the bloody Leafs, clinging on some scraps to make the first round and make money while you gauge your fans. This is unacceptable.
Yup. Since this past summer we've taken a page out of their book. That's why this move scares me. It's early though, too soon to shoot Gauthier but I didn't like this move.
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Do we really know how good this team is? Have we ever been able to ice a completely healthy lineup for a string of 5 or more games?
Posted via Mobile Device
We were basically healthy for the month of January and got pulverized. Healthy or not we get outplayed every game and leave it up to the goalies and PP to save us.
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
BS

Teams do not deal with them equally and at the end of the year they can make or break a team and determiner wether its a playoff or lottery team. ''injuries are not an excuse'' is the kind of thing coaches say to motivate their teams, I wish people used common sense instead of buying into this.
And that's fine but even when we're healthy we're still a one dimensional, small soft team. Injuries or not, this is a bubble team at best and that's due mostly to our great goaltending and special teams.
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Fact is this team, if healthy, can possibly upset one of the top teams. Its unlikely but its possible, we'd need a bit of luck (injuries can happen to other teams you know, lets say we face Washington... with Ovechkin injured) and a hot goalie (remember the Phillie series, we had twice as many shots as they had yet we lost due to Biron playing way over his head. all season long our goalies have accomplished similar feats and might accomplish it in the playoffs).
Fact is that ANY team can upset a top team in a seven round series, it happens all the time. That's not an indication of us being good though. Getting an upset is one thing, winning a cup is another. We have no chance at a championship and probably won't even make the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by SlappyMcGee View Post
I mostly agree with you about this being an overpay, and an unnecessary one because centers ain't what we need, but I should say, since Moore has scored one goal already, even if he doesn't score another and just plays defensively for the rest of the season, he's had a positive impact. That pick had tons of potential, but if we're looking to make the playoffs now, we need to trade away some of our potential for goals and defense. (An OFD or maybe a solid winger or a veteran goalie would be much better, but WHATCHA GONNA DO?
Maybe Moore will be good. Maybe he'll give us the extra bump to get us into the playoffs. I just think that if you're going to give up a 2nd rounder and the playoffs is your goal, you should be going after somebody who's better than Dominic Moore.
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Rask was already drafted when he was traded to the Bruins, he was part of the Leafs organization. He wasn't some future, unknown and unpicked 2nd round draft pick.
The arguments were the exact same as what I've seen here.

"He hasn't played a game, who knows if he'll make the NHL, he's an unknown commodity, we have to wait and see, ect...." I told them that you don't need to stick your hand in water to know its wet. It doesn't matter if Rask never played an NHL game it's still a bad trade that shouldn't have been made. Ditto with the Gomez deal.

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Old
02-13-2010, 12:14 PM
  #100
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This is my point, this is why pissing away assets now is a mistake. We haven't iced a full team for 5 games, heck for 2 games would be accurate. We're virtually in 9th place, this isn't the year to be spending assets to fight for 8th place.

If we had a solid grasp on 6th place and had a decent year, it would be OK, but as it stands now, its just a waste imo.
I disagree. What's the difference between fighting to finish 8th this year and finishing 6th next year? Aside from some tweaking this is basically the team we are going to have for the next few years. My hope is that this team can get everyone back healthy and ready to go for the playoffs where it's a whole new ballgame.

We have 4 solid lines with the acquisition of Moore, a hot goalie and one of the best PP and PK in the league. What's not to like about our chances? Someone mentioned Pit, Was and NJ. I ABSOLUTEY like our chances against any of these teams in a best of seven. Washington has no defense. They live and die by their offense. That's why their best defenseman didn't even get a call to the olympics. Again I'd much rather face just about any team in the league including the ones mentioned instead of Boston or Phili.

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