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Habs trade 2nd rounder (2011) for Dominic Moore Part II

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Old
02-13-2010, 12:31 PM
  #101
Andrighetto Fabolous
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Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
We're becoming the bloody Leafs, clinging on some scraps to make the first round and make money while you gauge your fans. This is unacceptable.
1) The Leafs don't make the playoffs
2) If the owners cared so much about the money they wouldn't allow management to spend to the cap since the team would probably still sell out if they had a $45 million payroll

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02-13-2010, 01:04 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Pernell Karl View Post
1) The Leafs don't make the playoffs
2) If the owners cared so much about the money they wouldn't allow management to spend to the cap since the team would probably still sell out if they had a $45 million payroll
They have to share their regular season profit with the rest of the league, so spending to the cap actually help them pay less revenue sharing. It also give some hope to the fans.

The Molsons are in for the money and that's why they went with the cheapest GM on the market instead of giving up a few millions to lure a great hockey mind in Montreal.

Id love the Molson to prove me wrong but the last years of the Molson(company) reign were just sad.

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02-13-2010, 02:03 PM
  #103
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Rask was already drafted when he was traded to the Bruins, he was part of the Leafs organization. He wasn't some future, unknown and unpicked 2nd round draft pick.
Well if it's the future that bothers you, it means that you prefer adding now than waiting for the future 'cause the now plays, the future doesn't. But adding now HAS to be a factor in your team becoming better, not just adding a piece to add one. We'll see how Moore does in that department.

Then, the unpick, well he will be pick. It's not like the draft will not happen, so that's out of the question.

The real question is the unknown. In his example, yes, Rask was already, for some, known as possibly a better Price. And they knew his value a little more than a 2nd round pick in 2011 which we can't know how good it will be so it might not be so good of an example.

Still, when you have faith in your drafting team, let's go back again in one of the worst if not the worst draft (1999) and see that even in the worst draft ever, you are able to get a Ryan Miller, Havelid, Zetterberg, Vrbata, Kostopoulos, Erat, Malone, Comrie, Franz Kaberle, Kelly, Hagman, Hall, Leopold, Commodore and a few others with a 2nd round pick and higher rounds. Yes, CLEARLY it shows why it was an awful year. STILL, there are some interesting names out there as awful as it was. Why wouldn't we be able to find a gem there? Also, why not try for a bigger fish and trade our 2nd AND 3rd of that year if they are not important picks? I mean, if our 2nd wasn't going to be a fine player....what's the point in picking after?

That's all I'm saying. That and the fact that while it should and might be seen as a weak one, it's much too soon to tell. Besides, if it's THAT weak, maybe you could start as soon as the 2nd round to go with a 1-year overager that wasn't pick the draft before but exploded the year after.

Another thing. What's scares me if what Martin McGuire said on the radio for the reason Gauthier went for him. McGuire said that Gauthier said that the prices were extremely high at this time ( admitting that he did pay a high price). But he did say that the Habs management believed that if they were not going to take him now, he'd be gone at the next trade deadline AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE THAT CHANCE. Geez, you are really under the impression that they're talking about an irreplacable player here. IMHO, he's a patching job. In their opinion, he seemed to be a keystone to better and bigger things. Don't have the same opinion hence why I disagree. I may be wrong, don't worry, happened to me a lot. Just explaining why I disagree and that it's not solely based on "the management does a thing, I disagree".

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02-13-2010, 02:09 PM
  #104
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The Laffs picked up Jamie Lundmark off waivers from Calgary:

Career stats...

Lundmark 280 gp 96 pts
Moore 354 gp 118 pts

Seems pretty similar to me... not sure what the point was of giving a second rounder for this type player.

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02-13-2010, 02:22 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

The arguments were the exact same as what I've seen here.

"He hasn't played a game, who knows if he'll make the NHL, he's an unknown commodity, we have to wait and see, ect...." I told them that you don't need to stick your hand in water to know its wet. It doesn't matter if Rask never played an NHL game it's still a bad trade that shouldn't have been made. Ditto with the Gomez deal.
You're missing the point...Rask WAS ALREADY DRAFTED, he was not an unknown commodity. The pick the Habs gave up, IS.

They gave up a future asset, for a player they think can help them now. Would I have made that trade? Probably not, but obviously they like Moore and think he can help. There's PLENTY of time between today and the 2011 NHL entry draft to recoup that pick and Gauthier has even gone on record stating so. So again, while in theory I agree with you, to start complaining about this right now makes little sense. Unless you know something about this 2nd round pick that I don't know...

You may end up being right in the end, but no one will know until 3 or 4 years from now, at best.

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Old
02-13-2010, 02:22 PM
  #106
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"AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE THAT CHANCE." To try to get better.

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02-13-2010, 02:26 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
"AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE THAT CHANCE." To try to get better.
That's not what Gauthier said from McGuire. Not that they didn't want to take that chance at becoming better, it's that they didn't want to take that chance at LOSING HIM.

So if Moore, then nobody? Anybody here called Dominic Moore a keystone at becoming better? What did Moore proved this year to explain how much better we'd be with him?

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02-13-2010, 02:26 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well if it's the future that bothers you, it means that you prefer adding now than waiting for the future 'cause the now plays, the future doesn't. But adding now HAS to be a factor in your team becoming better, not just adding a piece to add one. We'll see how Moore does in that department.

Then, the unpick, well he will be pick. It's not like the draft will not happen, so that's out of the question.

The real question is the unknown. In his example, yes, Rask was already, for some, known as possibly a better Price. And they knew his value a little more than a 2nd round pick in 2011 which we can't know how good it will be so it might not be so good of an example.

Still, when you have faith in your drafting team, let's go back again in one of the worst if not the worst draft (1999) and see that even in the worst draft ever, you are able to get a Ryan Miller, Havelid, Zetterberg, Vrbata, Kostopoulos, Erat, Malone, Comrie, Franz Kaberle, Kelly, Hagman, Hall, Leopold, Commodore and a few others with a 2nd round pick and higher rounds. Yes, CLEARLY it shows why it was an awful year. STILL, there are some interesting names out there as awful as it was. Why wouldn't we be able to find a gem there? Also, why not try for a bigger fish and trade our 2nd AND 3rd of that year if they are not important picks? I mean, if our 2nd wasn't going to be a fine player....what's the point in picking after?

That's all I'm saying. That and the fact that while it should and might be seen as a weak one, it's much too soon to tell. Besides, if it's THAT weak, maybe you could start as soon as the 2nd round to go with a 1-year overager that wasn't pick the draft before but exploded the year after.

Another thing. What's scares me if what Martin McGuire said on the radio for the reason Gauthier went for him. McGuire said that Gauthier said that the prices were extremely high at this time ( admitting that he did pay a high price). But he did say that the Habs management believed that if they were not going to take him now, he'd be gone at the next trade deadline AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE THAT CHANCE. Geez, you are really under the impression that they're talking about an irreplacable player here. IMHO, he's a patching job. In their opinion, he seemed to be a keystone to better and bigger things. Don't have the same opinion hence why I disagree. I may be wrong, don't worry, happened to me a lot. Just explaining why I disagree and that it's not solely based on "the management does a thing, I disagree".
Again...I agree in theory, I just don't know why we have to worry about the 2011 draft when we haven't even gotten to the 2010 draft?

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Old
02-13-2010, 02:33 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Again...I agree in theory, I just don't know why we have to worry about the 2011 draft when we haven't even gotten to the 2010 draft?
'Cause I love those drafts, and I just believe that the draft IS the way to build a team in a salarial cap era. A lot of talent, at the cheapest price possible before having to trade them away is the way to go. That means great drafts, great drafts means usually more picks at the right time. Yes, 2010 is by far killing 2011 right now. And we'll see the Bruins future with how they'll select in the upcoming draft. But I just don't beleive in throwing picks away for fillers no matter what year it's for. Mind you, throwing picks away for important pieces, I won't be against no matter what some people will say that in this board or HF picks are more important than players which isn't obviously true.

Remember that in 2010, we don't have a 3rd round pick due to the Schneider trade. No 6th and maybe no 7th. As of now, 4 picks only. Though we still have our 1st and 2nd. Then, we lost 1 2nd rounder in 2011, but gained one in the 4th for the Chipchura trade. Though, if losing a 2nd isn't that big of a deal, I can't believe gaining a 4th is either. So it's just a question of seeing a gap in the drafts to be able to continuously help our team out.

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02-13-2010, 02:39 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
'Cause I love those drafts, and I just believe that the draft IS the way to build a team in a salarial cap era. A lot of talent, at the cheapest price possible before having to trade them away is the way to go. That means great drafts, great drafts means usually more picks at the right time. Yes, 2010 is by far killing 2011 right now. And we'll see the Bruins future with how they'll select in the upcoming draft. But I just don't beleive in throwing picks away for fillers no matter what year it's for. Mind you, throwing picks away for important pieces, I won't be against no matter what some people will say that in this board or HF picks are more important than players which isn't obviously true.

Remember that in 2010, we don't have a 3rd round pick due to the Schneider trade. No 6th and maybe no 7th. As of now, 4 picks only. Though we still have our 1st and 2nd. Then, we lost 1 2nd rounder in 2011, but gained one in the 4th for the Chipchura trade. Though, if losing a 2nd isn't that big of a deal, I can't believe gaining a 4th is either. So it's just a question of seeing a gap in the drafts to be able to continuously help our team out.
But that's the thing, the pick is in NEXT year's draft. NOT this year's...there's alot of time between now and then to recoup that pick don't you think? Do you really think it's unreasonable to think Gauthier might be able to get that pick back someway/somehow before June 2011?

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02-13-2010, 02:56 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
But that's the thing, the pick is in NEXT year's draft. NOT this year's...there's alot of time between now and then to recoup that pick don't you think? Do you really think it's unreasonable to think Gauthier might be able to get that pick back someway/somehow before June 2011?
No it's not and OBVIOUSLY my reaction has everything to do with if we can't gain it back or can't gain any pick hoping 2010 included. I see our lineup and don't see who can fetch such a pick but we'll see about it I guess.

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02-13-2010, 03:02 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
No it's not and OBVIOUSLY my reaction has everything to do with if we can't gain it back or can't gain any pick hoping 2010 included. I see our lineup and don't see who can fetch such a pick but we'll see about it I guess.
I have the same concerns over this trade as you do, but I think the reactions are premature. I'm not going to worry about it right now, i'm still in season/playoffs mode

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02-13-2010, 03:23 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Habstastic View Post
The Laffs picked up Jamie Lundmark off waivers from Calgary:

Career stats...

Lundmark 280 gp 96 pts
Moore 354 gp 118 pts

Seems pretty similar to me... not sure what the point was of giving a second rounder for this type player.
Well, Moore wasn't brought in to score goals, first of all...

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Old
02-13-2010, 03:43 PM
  #114
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I have the same concerns over this trade as you do, but I think the reactions are premature. I'm not going to worry about it right now, i'm still in season/playoffs mode
Good enough. I maybe too much always in draft mode....

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02-13-2010, 03:57 PM
  #115
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You're missing the point...Rask WAS ALREADY DRAFTED, he was not an unknown commodity. The pick the Habs gave up, IS.
It doesn't matter. The arguments are exactly the same as the ones being made here.

I agree that Rask will likely be better than the 2nd round pick and I wouldn't dispute this. What I'm saying is the whole "we have to wait and see" argument was exactly the same there.

We don't have to 'wait and see' to know that this was a bad move.

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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
They gave up a future asset, for a player they think can help them now. Would I have made that trade? Probably not, but obviously they like Moore and think he can help. There's PLENTY of time between today and the 2011 NHL entry draft to recoup that pick and Gauthier has even gone on record stating so. So again, while in theory I agree with you, to start complaining about this right now makes little sense. Unless you know something about this 2nd round pick that I don't know...

You may end up being right in the end, but no one will know until 3 or 4 years from now, at best.
Whether the pick pans out or not is irrelevant. First of all, we'll NEVER know because we won't be the ones drafting that pick, Florida will and their scouting isn't as good as ours is. Secondly, we have an idea of what kind of value a 2nd pick has when we look at our drafting history. No, we won't know for sure how it would've panned out but that doesn't mean that we didn't give up any value or that we have to wait four years to find out.

Personally, I don't think it was a good trade. Sure, Moore could suddenly become the next Carbonneau but it's not likely and based on what we know now, this move doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Again...I agree in theory, I just don't know why we have to worry about the 2011 draft when we haven't even gotten to the 2010 draft?
It's a future pick that would've helped us build this team with. It doesn't matter that it's two years out or one. Esp when Moore is a UFA.
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
But that's the thing, the pick is in NEXT year's draft. NOT this year's...there's alot of time between now and then to recoup that pick don't you think? Do you really think it's unreasonable to think Gauthier might be able to get that pick back someway/somehow before June 2011?
Even if we can 'recoup' it, we'd have to give something up to 'recoup' the pick. It's backwards thinking.

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02-13-2010, 04:10 PM
  #116
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We don't have to 'wait and see' to know that this was a bad move.

It's a future pick that would've helped us build this team with. It doesn't matter that it's two years out or one. Esp when Moore is a UFA.

Even if we can 'recoup' it, we'd have to give something up to 'recoup' the pick. It's backwards thinking.
I agree with LG here. Even if Moore was desirable, it seems to me that we are undervaluing 2nd round picks by giving one up here. Moore is worth a lower pick, in my opinion, even if being in the market for him were appropriate.

I am willing to allow for the slight chance I am wrong, but it would take a great performance by Moore AND evidence that a third ior lower round pick would not have been accepted to convince me.

As for recouping this pick, I challenge PG to do it on March 3rd: get a 2nd round pick for Mara, whom we don't need. Then at least he can say he shuffled two players around in order to keep the one more in need.

One more thing: I would always try to get a low pick when giving a higher pick. For example, if we are giving a 2nd round pick, take back a 4th or 5th AUTOMATICALLY every time. At least get SOME chance to draft a player who might make the NHL. The trading partner will be hard-pressed to say NO.

Conversely, if RECEIVING a pick, if the other team asks for a pick back, try hard to give a low-ranked prospect instead, in order to retain the chance that the pick could strike gold. If push comes to shove, I would rather trade Mike Busto, for example, than a 5th round pick.

Even if this philosophical approach only works 80% of the time, over the long run we should benefit from it.


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02-13-2010, 04:14 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Habstastic View Post
The Laffs picked up Jamie Lundmark off waivers from Calgary:

Career stats...

Lundmark 280 gp 96 pts
Moore 354 gp 118 pts

Seems pretty similar to me... not sure what the point was of giving a second rounder for this type player.
That's like comparing Dagostini's stats to Moen's.

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02-13-2010, 04:22 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Habstastic View Post
The Laffs picked up Jamie Lundmark off waivers from Calgary:

Career stats...

Lundmark 280 gp 96 pts
Moore 354 gp 118 pts

Seems pretty similar to me... not sure what the point was of giving a second rounder for this type player.
Buddy you need

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02-13-2010, 05:20 PM
  #119
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That's like comparing Dagostini's stats to Moen's.
What? Can you explain what you mean... they both seem pretty comparable ( Lundmark vs Moore ) in both stat, age, experiance, size etc. except one didn't cost a second rounder.

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02-13-2010, 05:32 PM
  #120
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What? Can you explain what you mean... they both seem pretty comparable ( Lundmark vs Moore ) in both stat, age, experiance, size etc. except one didn't cost a second rounder.
They mean more about the style of play. Lundmark might not be tagged as much as a 2-way player than Moore does. They got Moore for his ability to do a little bit of everything. If Lundmark doesn't put points on the board, you might not see what other use he could have.

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02-13-2010, 06:10 PM
  #121
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The thing some people here don't understand is that Gauthier had his hand tied ..

We needed a body for the 2 game this weekend, Moore was the guy with the lesser cap hit and a good faceoff guy that can play on the PK.

Who would have taken Moore spot if we didn't had him? the 2nd rounder? D'agostini?

I prefer having Moore than D'ago in the 3rd line ..

You guys have to see further than the pick itself .. I'm sure Gauthier will get that pick back, just relax, and let the flow go ..

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02-13-2010, 07:07 PM
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The thing some people here don't understand is that Gauthier had his hand tied ..

We needed a body for the 2 game this weekend, Moore was the guy with the lesser cap hit and a good faceoff guy that can play on the PK.

Who would have taken Moore spot if we didn't had him? the 2nd rounder? D'agostini?

I prefer having Moore than D'ago in the 3rd line ..

You guys have to see further than the pick itself .. I'm sure Gauthier will get that pick back, just relax, and let the flow go ..
trotter and white did just fine as call ups... keeping either one of them up instead of throwing away a 2nd round pick would have made much more sense.

"his hands were tied" is a weak excuse and I'd be shocked if that was his reasoning.

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02-13-2010, 07:25 PM
  #123
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The thing some people here don't understand is that Gauthier had his hand tied ..

We needed a body for the 2 game this weekend, Moore was the guy with the lesser cap hit and a good faceoff guy that can play on the PK.

Who would have taken Moore spot if we didn't had him? the 2nd rounder? D'agostini?

I prefer having Moore than D'ago in the 3rd line ..

You guys have to see further than the pick itself .. I'm sure Gauthier will get that pick back, just relax, and let the flow go ..
This is the funniest thing I've ever heard. Paying a 2nd round pick because you need a body for 2 games.

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02-13-2010, 07:39 PM
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This is the funniest thing I've ever heard. Paying a 2nd round pick because you need a body for 2 games.
Well you obviously don't know anything about hockey then.

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02-13-2010, 07:43 PM
  #125
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trotter and white did just fine as call ups... keeping either one of them up instead of throwing away a 2nd round pick would have made much more sense.

"his hands were tied" is a weak excuse and I'd be shocked if that was his reasoning.
Problem with Brock Trotter or Ryan White is not that they don't have talent .. the problem is, can they perform playing on a 3rd-4th line.

You guys are stuck to our 2nd round pick like if we are gonna draft another PK Subban on the 2011 draft .. I mean come on, it's in 2 draft. We have all the time in the world to get back that 2nd rounder (or better..).

Moore is way more helpful than our 2nd round pick right now, face it ..

But I know i'm arguing in a board where people think that prospects and Picks are going to make it to the NHL everytime ..

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