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Was acquiring Shelley a good move?

View Poll Results: Was acquiring Shelley a good move?
Yes 95 62.50%
No 26 17.11%
I don't know 31 20.39%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-13-2010, 03:27 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
Is he wearing skates? No, didn't think so.

Who gives a crap about the stupid photo. If it is Jody Shelley, then it means he is in great shape.

If it is not Jody Shelley, then why post some wrestler?
He isn't a wwe wrestler, he is a 46 year old mixed martial artist that routinely hammers guys in their 20s that are at the top of the sport. The point is saying a guy can't fight in his mid 30s is dumb. Some of the best fighters in the world are in their mid to late 30s.

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02-13-2010, 03:28 PM
  #77
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Whats funny was that 100 percent of all Rangers fans were outraged at what Carcillo did to Gaborik, then the press assaults the team for being too soft. Sather then gos out and gets two of the toughest guys in the league, and people are complaining about a 6th round pick.

I hope Carcillo is excited about the next time we play them. I can guarantee you -- arning ro no warning from the league -- that both Shelley and Prust will be in the lineup that day.

Shelley absolutely destroyed Colton Orr. He'll destroy anybody.

I personally want this team to tank and sell, but that doesnt mean i want to see them get pushed around.

I like the move. We havent had this much Goonery since Domi, King and Mallette

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02-13-2010, 03:28 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Yeah, I also think its better to sell high on guys like Prospal and acquire some youth/picks going forward.
Yeah, I almost feel like Vinny could net a low first rounder. A second for sure...but he really could help a contender big time.

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02-13-2010, 03:29 PM
  #79
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some of u people confuse the sh#t out of me? begining of the season u all said we don't have toughness now we have it and u all complain? make up ur minds? yeah we need scoring and hopefully that will happen in the near future but for now we can go with the best of them in the fighting aspect of the game and no one will push us around.
I think you don't agree with me what toughness even means. Toughness, to me, is your players who can contribute offensively being tough. Not that they can dance and throw a punch.

Toughness is players like Gillies, Dustin Brown, Lucic, etc. They are valuable and they terrify the other team. Guys like Shelley will fight the other goons and accomplish nothing. No one fears Shelley. No one fears Orr, unless they are an inferior goon, and even then, they probably don't.

It doesn't help the young guys even a tiny bit. Do you think Anisimov is now going to drop the gloves and run guys because he watches Shelley? Don't you understand that by the time a player gets to NHL, his game is already formed?

If a guy is tough before he gets to the NHL, he will continue to be tough, if he is big enough, but no player who grew up non-tough will become tough unless his body totally changes and his personality totally changes. I'm sure that must have happened but I bet not often.

Toughness is being the first player in the corner, not dancing at center ice in front of drunken fans.

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02-13-2010, 03:30 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Scipio Africanus View Post
Whats funny was that 100 percent of all Rangers fans were outraged at what Carcillo did to Gaborik, then the press assaults the team for being too soft. Sather then gos out and gets two of the toughest guys in the league, and people are complaining about a 6th round pick.

I hope Carcillo is excited about the next time we play them. I can guarantee you -- arning ro no warning from the league -- that both Shelley and Prust will be in the lineup that day.

Shelley absolutely destroyed Colton Orr. He'll destroy anybody.

I personally want this team to tank and sell, but that doesnt mean i want to see them get pushed around.

I like the move. We havent had this much Goonery since Domi, King and Mallette
I don't think you can say 100%. Personally I still believe that Gabby instigated the fight. That said, I have no problem with us dealing a 6th rounder in a crappy draft class for a guy that will drop the gloves to stand up for his teammates.

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02-13-2010, 03:37 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
I don't think you can say 100%. Personally I still believe that Gabby instigated the fight. That said, I have no problem with us dealing a 6th rounder in a crappy draft class for a guy that will drop the gloves to stand up for his teammates.
Lets be honest here though - do you think an NHL fighter who plays 5-7 minutes a game is scaring other teams goons and keeping them from hitting our best players the hardest they can? A guy like Carcillo will totally forget the game he plays now that Shelley is on the bench ?

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02-13-2010, 03:38 PM
  #82
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it entirely depends on what Sather has planned for later. With Prust, although not a heavy weight like Shelley, he's redundant. Unless he has some sort of development spurt like we saw in Colton Orr when he first arrived, his usefulness is extremely limited. If Sather is using Prust as trade bait (remember Pascal Dupuis?), then it makes perfect sense.

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02-13-2010, 03:40 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Lets be honest here though - do you think an NHL fighter who plays 5-7 minutes a game is scaring other teams goons and keeping them from hitting our best players the hardest they can? A guy like Carcillo will totally forget the game he plays now that Shelley is on the bench ?
No, I don't think that guy is scaring the other teams goons. But certainly if and when they hit our guys we'll have someone who can go after their top guys, hopefully with clean, punishing hits.

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02-13-2010, 03:42 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
I don't think you can say 100%. Personally I still believe that Gabby instigated the fight. That said, I have no problem with us dealing a 6th rounder in a crappy draft class for a guy that will drop the gloves to stand up for his teammates.
I think what I meant was the reaction to Gabby fighting.

But I agree. The 6th round pick is something we can get back if sather chooses to do so. I agree with an earlier post that at least he's trying to address serious deficiencies.

Getting Prust, Shelley and Jokinen for peanuts and money off the books is a sign of good things, from either a organization standpoint or a financial one or both

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02-13-2010, 03:43 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
No, I don't think that guy is scaring the other teams goons. But certainly if and when they hit our guys we'll have someone who can go after their top guys, hopefully with clean, punishing hits.
If he could keep up with and punish other teams top guys he wouldnt be available, much less for a 6th rounder

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02-13-2010, 03:44 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
If he could keep up with and punish other teams top guys he wouldnt be available, much less for a 6th rounder
lol, true. but at least our opponents will have to be mindful of who's on the ice lest they get their bells rung.

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02-13-2010, 03:49 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Scipio Africanus View Post
I think what I meant was the reaction to Gabby fighting.

But I agree. The 6th round pick is something we can get back if sather chooses to do so. I agree with an earlier post that at least he's trying to address serious deficiencies.
Address deficiencies that he created. We had a fighter last year, Sather traded him in for a more expensive, older goon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scipio Africanus View Post
Getting Prust, Shelley and Jokinen for peanuts and money off the books is a sign of good things, from either a organization standpoint or a financial one or both
Ha, he took money off that he HAD JUST ADDED THIS SUMMER !

Sather makes mistakes, then cover them up.

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02-13-2010, 04:05 PM
  #88
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These arguments pro/con for fighters has been a source of debate since the day I joined here.

I am pro-enforcer. My team would have a pest, a middleweight and a mean, nasty ,in your face D-man. My "enforcer" would dress against teams that dress theirs.

Thats the team that I would have.

Though I respect and understand the posters who may disagree, not one opinion has changed my mind.

What I do find humerous is that the same "anti-goon" posters come on for the last 5 years I've been here and say the same stuff. "they don't intimidate, they can't play"..,blah,blah,blah.

I honestly don't believe they have changed one posters mind who like that side of the game.

Also, in the same breath, most of the pro fighter, pro "goon" or whatever you want to call it do the same. We preach the importance of toughness and how they do have an impact on creating open ice, making other players play bigger,... blah, blah ,blah.

And again, I don't believe we (especially I) have changed one posters mind about it.

The poll is up. Thats the boards opinion, and debating is fine. But.. if you are trying to make people "see the light" (your opinion) then this is a topic, that I believe, shows feelings/opinions that are just not going to change. Ever.

We like what we like.

Trying to tell other people that they are wrong for the type of hockey they should like is just wrong imo. Remember how Sam (anti-fighting) and JD (pro-fighting ) used to actually literally have screaming matches over this topic. Its a waste of time.

Sorry for the rant.


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02-13-2010, 04:16 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Address deficiencies that he created. We had a fighter last year, Sather traded him in for a more expensive, older goon.



Ha, he took money off that he HAD JUST ADDED THIS SUMMER !

Sather makes mistakes, then cover them up.

So by your rationale everything in sports operations is perfect and every free agent signing and acquisition works out towards team success.

I'm not defending Sather overall, I just agree with his course of action the last two weeks. Im just glad he realized some of the mistakes he made and he corrected them. Anybody who has followed this franchise long enough knows that certain players arent designed to mentally and emotionally handle working and living in NYC.

Sather identified the weak links and has moved forward. In a perfect world, he'd have short arms after July 1, but as long as the team he runs occupies real estate in midtown Manhattan, he'll always be a buyer come summertime.

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02-13-2010, 04:23 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by HAPPY HOUR View Post
These arguments pro/con for fighters has been a source of debate since the day I joined here.

I am pro-enforcer. My team would have a pest, a middleweight and a mean, nasty ,in your face D-man. My "enforcer" would dress against teams that dress theirs.

Thats the team that I would have.

Though I respect and understand the posters who may disagree, not one opinion has changed my mind.

What I do find humerous is that the same "anti-goon" posters come on for the last 5 years I've been here and say the same stuff. "they don't intimidate, they can't play"..,blah,blah,blah.

I honestly don't believe they have changed one posters mind who like that side of the game.

Also, in the same breath, most of the pro fighter, pro "goon" or whatever you want to call it do the same. We preach the importance of toughness and how they do have an impact on creating open ice, making other players play bigger,... blah, blah ,blah.

And again, I don't believe we (especially I) have changed one posters mind about it.

The poll is up. Thats the boards opinion, and debating is fine. But.. if you are trying to make people "see the light" (your opinion) this is a topic that I believe shows feelings/opinions that are just not going to change. Ever. We like what we like.

Trying to tell other people that they are wrong for the type of hockey they should like is just wrong imo. Remember how Sam (anti-fighting) and JD (pro-fighting ) used to actually literally have screaming matches over this topic. Its a waste of time.

Sorry for the rant.
You're right, but I have one minor quibble:

I like fighting. I like watching it. I just don't think it helps the team and I believe that it's better to have a roster spot for a guy who can fight and play.

An outstanding example of what I like is Steve Downie. He used to be pure thug but he's evolving into a very, very good hockey player. It's funny, because his coach, Tocchet, had the same career path.

What I want is to have a young tough whose game can evolve into more. I can't remember the last Ranger who fit that description.

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02-13-2010, 04:29 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Scipio Africanus View Post
So by your rationale everything in sports operations is perfect and every free agent signing and acquisition works out towards team success.

I'm not defending Sather overall, I just agree with his course of action the last two weeks. Im just glad he realized some of the mistakes he made and he corrected them. Anybody who has followed this franchise long enough knows that certain players arent designed to mentally and emotionally handle working and living in NYC.

Sather identified the weak links and has moved forward. In a perfect world, he'd have short arms after July 1, but as long as the team he runs occupies real estate in midtown Manhattan, he'll always be a buyer come summertime.
Its happened WAY too often these last few years. And these FA's have been exposed less than a year into their contracts. He's a buyer, no doubt, but you telling me he's signed the best FA's the market had to offer? I understand the 'this is NY' rationale where we're always supposed to be players, but his record speaks for itself.

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02-13-2010, 04:30 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You're right, but I have one minor quibble:

I like fighting. I like watching it. I just don't think it helps the team and I believe that it's better to have a roster spot for a guy who can fight and play.

An outstanding example of what I like is Steve Downie. He used to be pure thug but he's evolving into a very, very good hockey player. It's funny, because his coach, Tocchet, had the same career path.

What I want is to have a young tough whose game can evolve into more. I can't remember the last Ranger who fit that description.
Great example chosen. Love how Downie has evolved. Rick Tocchet deserves all the credit in the world for that one. Alex Burrows is another one.

I think the Rangers have tried that route with Brodie Dupont and Dane Byers, but so far it hasn't worked out.

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02-13-2010, 04:39 PM
  #93
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Either side of the fence, does anybody actually like the instigator rule? Have yet to see /hear a player or fan say that they like it.

But then again almost all of the fans that I hang out with still watch hockey fight tapes from the 80's (myself included) ...lol.

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02-13-2010, 04:42 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You're right, but I have one minor quibble:

I like fighting. I like watching it. I just don't think it helps the team and I believe that it's better to have a roster spot for a guy who can fight and play.

An outstanding example of what I like is Steve Downie. He used to be pure thug but he's evolving into a very, very good hockey player. It's funny, because his coach, Tocchet, had the same career path.

What I want is to have a young tough whose game can evolve into more. I can't remember the last Ranger who fit that description.
Same way I see it. I like it, i'll watch it, but its one of the least parts the game that needs attention. From the draft to the hall of fame.

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02-13-2010, 05:00 PM
  #95
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Its happened WAY too often these last few years. And these FA's have been exposed less than a year into their contracts. He's a buyer, no doubt, but you telling me he's signed the best FA's the market had to offer? I understand the 'this is NY' rationale where we're always supposed to be players, but his record speaks for itself.
No, but I understood the reasoning behind the Kotalik, Higgins and Brashear signings. One to help the PP, one to add scoring depth, and one to add a little tougness.

I didnt agree with the length and follars but understood why the player was coming here. Well except Brashear. That just didnt seem like a good fit.

Sather has a very spotty UFA record but for some reason I think he is plugging holes with mediocrity just to bide time for all the great recent draft picks he's made to carry the torch.

But I agree. If he didnt make these ridiculous signings in the 1st place we would never come to having to trade guys he just signed.

It's a weird dynamic but I guess its the way he does business nowadays

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02-13-2010, 06:41 PM
  #96
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Prust is actually a very good 4th liner, having shelley does not make him pointless.

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02-13-2010, 06:50 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Toughness = Fighting?

No.

Toughness = Top players getting most of the minutes are tough to play against.

Yes.
Exactly. Toughness is the ability to take a hit, go through high traffic areas, not be afraid to go for the net and crease, the ability to intimidate D-men and other players with heavy hits and the knowledge that you know your teammates will stick up for you and back you up 100%, whatever happens. Toughness is to at least 80% a mental aspect, to never give up, be fearless, always give 100% and always want to win each and every game, while knowing what it takes to win.

Toughness is not a 3 min TOI goon that will occassionally have a staged, meaningless fight with another goon. Those who he wants to fight, but who don't want to fight him, just declines, rendering him useless. The instigator spells doom for goons.

This team doesn't become tougher with or without some goon named Shelley. It's up to all the players to make the team tougher. Detroit is a good example of this I guess. They don't fight, but they don't back down when intimidated, they take the hits and repay them. Their "goon" is someone like Kirk Maltby, who is heaps and heads a better hockey player than any goon.

If I was to create a franchise team, I would absolutely not have any one dimensional goon on the team, but I would absolutely have players that have feistyness. All of them should be good skaters, all of them should be good two-way players. All of them should know how to handle the puck. All of them will stand up for themselves and eachother. All of them will hate to lose.


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02-13-2010, 07:04 PM
  #98
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IMO it was a move that needed to be made, regardless of where this season is going. I don't know that he'll actually be a deterrent to people messing with our stars, but I think Voros' days are numbered OR they actually want a tough bottom six and want Avery-Prust, Voros-Shelley as the bottom 6 pairings, with Boyle in that mix as well.

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02-13-2010, 07:06 PM
  #99
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Don Cherry loved this move.

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02-13-2010, 09:35 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Its happened WAY too often these last few years. And these FA's have been exposed less than a year into their contracts. He's a buyer, no doubt, but you telling me he's signed the best FA's the market had to offer? I understand the 'this is NY' rationale where we're always supposed to be players, but his record speaks for itself.
Yeah, signing both Gomez AND Drury at the same time was questionable. But signing Redden to the same kind of deal, considering his declining performance the previous couple of years was nothing short of unconscionable. Fortunately he got bailed out by Gainey so he was able to at least exchange Gomez for Gabby...but he is still stuck with the worst 2 of these 3 mega signings. Not the work of a winning franchise.

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