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Nodar Kumaritashvili

View Poll Results: Should TSN/SPORTSNET have televized his death?
yes 57 42.86%
no 76 57.14%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-14-2010, 12:09 AM
  #76
Valic
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Without the video 99% of the world would have forgotten it even happened a month from now, and that in my opinion would be a far worse scenario than people seeing something, however tragic and graphic, that actually happened, in real life, on the biggest stage in the world.

On a completely unrelated note, I just made a pact with my better half that if I ever die in some dramatic fashion or in some way that is newsworthy I demand it NOT be censored given the choice. Preventing a few images is going to do nothing to bring me back.

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02-14-2010, 12:23 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by CorpseFX View Post
i agree with this. the photos were "worse" to a degree and it could be for multiple reasons. coming face to face with still images of the known dead (and him at least looking dead in the photo) is probably one thing. the dead in a spectacular setting makes it more bizarre. when reality breaks through the overly-absorbed spectacle of escapism in sports, it shouldnt be hidden/ignored by the media

people who want it pushed out of view want their cake while eating it too.
"please give me escapism but when catastrophe shatters that illusion, please hide it for me, oh wise media masters"

you also didnt have to watch it when its aired. but here we have people seeking it out through some type of voyeurism to see if its "morally acceptable" then condemning it after. nice paradox. duh.


the real black eye is the design of the track and the event being moderately absurd in its possibilities for danger.
Don't you think that we should have a reasonable expectation of responsability from the media when sharing serious matters with us.

If Sportsnet/TSN or anyone who chose to show the footage did it to give people the sensational stories the they want to see, then they're no better than Fox News. I'd rather see them follow up with the story to bring some accountability, albeit late, to those who designed the track and where supposed to be responsible for ensuring there was no undo danger. (I'd say they failed at that with inadequate guards in place and a few too many fixed structures to run into at 140 km/hr) But refrain from showing the footage, not to shelter us, but out of respect for a man that died.

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Old
02-14-2010, 12:26 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Summary View Post
Don't you think that we should have a reasonable expectation of responsability from the media when sharing serious matters with us.

If Sportsnet/TSN or anyone who chose to show the footage did it to give people the sensational stories the they want to see, then they're no better than Fox News. I'd rather see them follow up with the story to bring some accountability, albeit late, to those who designed the track and where supposed to be responsible for ensuring there was no undo danger. (I'd say they failed at that with inadequate guards in place and a few too many fixed structures to run into at 140 km/hr) But refrain from showing the footage, not to shelter us, but out of respect for a man that died.
The track has already been declared safe and the accident declared human error.

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02-14-2010, 12:38 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Valic View Post
Without the video 99% of the world would have forgotten it even happened a month from now, and that in my opinion would be a far worse scenario than people seeing something, however tragic and graphic, that actually happened, in real life, on the biggest stage in the world.

On a completely unrelated note, I just made a pact with my better half that if I ever die in some dramatic fashion or in some way that is newsworthy I demand it NOT be censored given the choice. Preventing a few images is going to do nothing to bring me back.
You do have a point there, I surely won't forget it soon.

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Old
02-14-2010, 12:48 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Valic View Post
The track has already been declared safe and the accident declared human error.
Good point, To me that shows that the media outlets and general public shouldn't let the matter drop. This was a very preventable tragedy but in sports the concept of safety often goes brushed aside, I think it's because you can never remove the likelyhood of injury so most things get overlooked to provide a better presentation or give the spectators a better viewing angle. And then putting it all on the athletes to accept the risk since the alternative is to not compete.

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02-14-2010, 12:57 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Andy Martin View Post
We live in a world where we're bombarded with these images(death) all the time, be it through film, music, or every day life(the news). I guess I'm just desensitized to it all.
I wish you had stuck to being done posting on the subject before you shared such a dumb statement with us. Maybe someday you will realize the difference between fantasy and reality. Being desensitized is no excuse, especialy when accepting it as an excuse.

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02-14-2010, 01:09 AM
  #82
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I didn't vote because I don't think I necessarily fit into either category. I don't want to say that i think they should've shown in because it's not like I wanted to gawk over the footage but I'm not against the fact that they did show it. Either way, I don't have an issue with it.

However, having seen the accident, the reality of how dangerous these sports can be definitely hit home for me.

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Old
02-14-2010, 07:57 AM
  #83
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if ya go on facebook some tend to make fun of him dying i find it disgusting that ppl would do that on there

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02-14-2010, 08:43 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Smyth94 View Post
if ya go on facebook some tend to make fun of him dying i find it disgusting that ppl would do that on there
Utterly appalling. I would have a hard time maintaining the same level of respects or relationship with any of my friends if they legitimately acted or felt that way. Harsh, but people who would mock Nodar really are showing their true character. One I would not want to associate with.

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02-14-2010, 09:34 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by nullterm View Post
My fiancee has friends that complained that they saw it and really wish they hadn't. No warnings either.
I actually filed a complaint with the CRTC citing that if they were going to show this footage they should have said the images were graphic.

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02-14-2010, 10:54 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by poetryingasoline View Post
I actually filed a complaint with the CRTC citing that if they were going to show this footage they should have said the images were graphic.
They did.

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Old
02-14-2010, 11:31 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic View Post
The track has already been declared safe and the accident declared human error.
Still, human error should not lead to death. I am not sure how one can reconciliate "safe" with this tragic outcome. Yes, driver error was essential; yet all tracks have safety features to compensate for those driver errors. I think VANOC made the track faster and more difficult but they should have been more thoughtful about implementing additional safety features. No human error should result in the driver flying off the track.

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Old
02-14-2010, 07:53 PM
  #88
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Still, human error should not lead to death.
In any sport in which the competitors are hurtling close to 100mph theres always a possibility of serious injury and or death.

Luge is one of the more dangerous sports to begin with and downhill skiing certainly is as well.

Athletes that push the limit KNOW that death and or debilitating injury is a possibility of the participation at this level.

In fact when the "Crazy Canucks" came into prominence in the 80's one of the oft stated criticisms of their performances was that somebody would end up killing themselves. Never happened but the Canadian team faced great anger from euro competitors, skiing associations etc for how "irresponsible" they were alleged to be on the course.
From competitors that basically had less balls.

Athletes know the risks and accept the risks and that a mistake can easily be very serious.

Hell just 2 weeks ago on this very board I was having some conversations with some people entering into the "Redbull Skate race" that said yeah they know the risk but accepted it anyway. Even though they had to sign legal forms preventing any recourse in the event of death, paralysis, or serious injury to themselves or others. I even downloaded the form so they could look at it but they still wanted in. That event is way more dangerous than luge and not even close.

Quote:
I am not sure how one can reconciliate "safe" with this tragic outcome. Yes, driver error was essential; yet all tracks have safety features to compensate for those driver errors. I think VANOC made the track faster and more difficult but they should have been more thoughtful about implementing additional safety features. No human error should result in the driver flying off the track.
Here I tend to agree that in this instance the flying off the track was preventable. But Nodar hit one side of the corner almost perpendicular and at 140km before slamming across. Even if the wall was erect at that location at that time its likely that very serious injury would still have already occurred.

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02-14-2010, 10:29 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
In any sport in which the competitors are hurtling close to 100mph theres always a possibility of serious injury and or death.

Luge is one of the more dangerous sports to begin with and downhill skiing certainly is as well.

Athletes that push the limit KNOW that death and or debilitating injury is a possibility of the participation at this level.

In fact when the "Crazy Canucks" came into prominence in the 80's one of the oft stated criticisms of their performances was that somebody would end up killing themselves. Never happened but the Canadian team faced great anger from euro competitors, skiing associations etc for how "irresponsible" they were alleged to be on the course.
From competitors that basically had less balls.

Athletes know the risks and accept the risks and that a mistake can easily be very serious.

Hell just 2 weeks ago on this very board I was having some conversations with some people entering into the "Redbull Skate race" that said yeah they know the risk but accepted it anyway. Even though they had to sign legal forms preventing any recourse in the event of death, paralysis, or serious injury to themselves or others. I even downloaded the form so they could look at it but they still wanted in. That event is way more dangerous than luge and not even close.

Here I tend to agree that in this instance the flying off the track was preventable. But Nodar hit one side of the corner almost perpendicular and at 140km before slamming across. Even if the wall was erect at that location at that time its likely that very serious injury would still have already occurred.
If the wall was already there he probably would have been injured, and possibly very seriously, but I highly doubt that he would have been killed by the crash. The wall would have kept him in the track and he would have slid to a slow stop. His crash can be blames on driver error, but I blame his death on the design of the course.

As for the crashed ice competition being more dangerous than the luge, I don't agree with that at all. The crashed ice competition has a higher likely hood of causing an injury, but the likely hood of a serious injury or even death is higher in luge because of the speed.

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Old
02-14-2010, 10:32 PM
  #90
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02-14-2010, 10:56 PM
  #91
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Think of the man's family. Would you want your child's death on youtube? This should never be seen by anyone and those who wanted to watch a man die should take a step back and ask why.

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02-15-2010, 09:48 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
If the wall was already there he probably would have been injured, and possibly very seriously, but I highly doubt that he would have been killed by the crash. The wall would have kept him in the track and he would have slid to a slow stop. His crash can be blames on driver error, but I blame his death on the design of the course.

As for the crashed ice competition being more dangerous than the luge, I don't agree with that at all. The crashed ice competition has a higher likely hood of causing an injury, but the likely hood of a serious injury or even death is higher in luge because of the speed.
I completely agree with both parts of your post. I'm not gonna put words in Replacements mouth but you make it seem like serious injury is equivilent to death. If there was a chance this man could still be with us today I'm sure his friends and family would very much appreciate it.

As for the wall I agree it should have been there, it was kind of like the nets in hockey. A freak accident would lead to something serious but who knew that slapshots of increasing speeds could possibly pose a danger to someone? Kind of like have the steel support structures coming out of a turn where you are reaching speeds of 140 km/h.

After looking at the course over and over again I still question the "support" beams as they are there to just have a roof over the finish area eventhough the immense speeds wouldn't allow an athlete to stop in that area anyhow. So was that roof overtop of the track necessary there? What purpose does it serve?

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02-15-2010, 01:34 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
So you know that Nodar didn't mind you watching the last few seconds of his life for entertainment ? You haven't invaded the privacy of his family either ?
The difference of course is that Nodar choose to participate in an event that made parts of his life public, including his untimely death.

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02-15-2010, 01:38 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Summary View Post
Good point, To me that shows that the media outlets and general public shouldn't let the matter drop. This was a very preventable tragedy but in sports the concept of safety often goes brushed aside, I think it's because you can never remove the likelyhood of injury so most things get overlooked to provide a better presentation or give the spectators a better viewing angle. And then putting it all on the athletes to accept the risk since the alternative is to not compete.
You are never going to make something completely safe when a human being reaches speeds of over 100km/hour... nevermind when you put them on a sled to do it.

He didn't die because the wall wasn't high enough. He died because he was launched from his sled after he lost control. Whether he hit the metal beam or he hit a retaining wall of some sort wouldn't have changed much when he was going that fast.

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02-15-2010, 01:42 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Moose View Post
Still, human error should not lead to death. I am not sure how one can reconciliate "safe" with this tragic outcome. Yes, driver error was essential; yet all tracks have safety features to compensate for those driver errors. I think VANOC made the track faster and more difficult but they should have been more thoughtful about implementing additional safety features. No human error should result in the driver flying off the track.
Human Error leads to death every day (think of driving your car)... and that's despite the fact that there are numerous safety features built into nearly every vehicle on the road.

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02-15-2010, 01:46 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
If the wall was already there he probably would have been injured, and possibly very seriously, but I highly doubt that he would have been killed by the crash. The wall would have kept him in the track and he would have slid to a slow stop. His crash can be blames on driver error, but I blame his death on the design of the course.
The wall might have kept him in the track, but he still would have smashed into it at a very high speed. The problem was that he was launched from his sled and came into contact with the beam. A higher wall just changes the object he hits.

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02-15-2010, 03:03 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Human Error leads to death every day (think of driving your car)... and that's despite the fact that there are numerous safety features built into nearly every vehicle on the road.
Sure, and we could probably made cars that are as safe as tanks but would probably cost millions. Instead, given the exorbitant cost and the huge number of drivers, we chose affordable safety even though there is still risk. However the comparison with sports it is not a very good one. Making the track safer didn't involve a huge cost, just better planning. Someone making a big errors in that turn should have been one of the possible scenarios that organizers and track designers should have taken into consideration.

I think the wall would have helped. The vast majority of his momentum was forward not lateral. The post stopped his forward momentum, a wall would have deflected a good portion of that along the track. Instead of a sudden stop (loss of momentum) it would have been a gradual one tumbling down the track.

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02-15-2010, 03:16 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by The Moose View Post
Sure, and we could probably made cars that are as safe as tanks but would probably cost millions. Instead, given the exorbitant cost and the huge number of drivers, we chose affordable safety even though there is still risk. However the comparison with sports it is not a very good one. Making the track safer didn't involve a huge cost, just better planning. Someone making a big errors in that turn should have been one of the possible scenarios that organizers and track designers should have taken into consideration.

I think the wall would have helped. The vast majority of his momentum was forward not lateral. The post stopped his forward momentum, a wall would have deflected a good portion of that along the track. Instead of a sudden stop (loss of momentum) it would have been a gradual one tumbling down the track.
You are evaluating the course design in hindsight though. If they had known it was a possibility or a likelihood, than yes the design would have been fixed. That was the hard lesson learned from this.

But keep in mind that thousands of runs have taken place on this track, including 30 runs by Nodar himself.

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02-15-2010, 03:21 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Moose View Post
Sure, and we could probably made cars that are as safe as tanks but would probably cost millions. Instead, given the exorbitant cost and the huge number of drivers, we chose affordable safety even though there is still risk. However the comparison with sports it is not a very good one. Making the track safer didn't involve a huge cost, just better planning. Someone making a big errors in that turn should have been one of the possible scenarios that organizers and track designers should have taken into consideration.

I think the wall would have helped. The vast majority of his momentum was forward not lateral. The post stopped his forward momentum, a wall would have deflected a good portion of that along the track. Instead of a sudden stop (loss of momentum) it would have been a gradual one tumbling down the track.
Not necessarily the case as I stated earlier. He slammed right into one of the turns almost perpendicular and then went careening right across, perpendicular, to go off the track. Had there been the wall there he hits that and the earlier turn at full speed. Close to 100mph.

People that get thrown out of vehicles at this speed usually die. Add a fixed immovable object to the equation and its pretty much a given.

Primarily because all the G force would have been directed at the wall, not down.

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02-15-2010, 03:56 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Moose View Post
Sure, and we could probably made cars that are as safe as tanks but would probably cost millions. Instead, given the exorbitant cost and the huge number of drivers, we chose affordable safety even though there is still risk. However the comparison with sports it is not a very good one. Making the track safer didn't involve a huge cost, just better planning. Someone making a big errors in that turn should have been one of the possible scenarios that organizers and track designers should have taken into consideration.

I think the wall would have helped. The vast majority of his momentum was forward not lateral. The post stopped his forward momentum, a wall would have deflected a good portion of that along the track. Instead of a sudden stop (loss of momentum) it would have been a gradual one tumbling down the track.
It really doesn't matter what is there when you get launched into the air like that. It wasn't the collision that was the issue, it was him being throw through the air. Whether you had a higher wall at that poing or spikes, it wouldn't have mattered in that situation.

You can't make something that will ease the impact when the human body gets launched like that. If anything, the issue is the speed and the turn leading up to when he got launched... those are the safety issues in question.

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