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The Entitlement Issue: Andrew Cogliano

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Old
02-13-2010, 10:01 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
When I think of entitlement and the Oilers, Cogliano's name is way down the list. The guy has played with donkeys for two years now. No complaining as far as I know. The guy is young and putting in his time on the scrub lines while he waits for his chance at the top two lines.

Just because a reporter tries to stereotype him as a career plugger doesnt mean he should have to agree with a stupid assessment of him.
This^^^^ Well said IATL

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02-13-2010, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
When I think of entitlement and the Oilers, Cogliano's name is way down the list. The guy has played with donkeys for two years now. No complaining as far as I know. The guy is young and putting in his time on the scrub lines while he waits for his chance at the top two lines.

Just because a reporter tries to stereotype him as a career plugger doesnt mean he should have to agree with a stupid assessment of him.

Thanks for this post! He plays with perennial losers at the moment stuck on the fourth line with line mates that can't even come close to keeping up with him on the ice. He is being set up to fail when he is put in the situations that he is in.
Oh and anything from Matheson lately is a Joke.

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02-13-2010, 10:10 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Dont see the upside of getting rid of Cogliano. Unless we want to trade him and watch him take off ala Shremp. He is young, talented, and cheap. At best you trade him and hope for a return that somehow is equal to what you are giving up. Its just a really bad idea.
For sure I don't think anyone's saying trade him for the equivalent of Moreau or anything. However it sure seems like he hasn't recovered from almost being traded to Ottawa. Sour grapes on his part? Is he down because he doesn't feel wanted? Who really knows.

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02-13-2010, 10:17 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
For sure I don't think anyone's saying trade him for the equivalent of Moreau or anything. However it sure seems like he hasn't recovered from almost being traded to Ottawa. Sour grapes on his part? Is he down because he doesn't feel wanted? Who really knows.
The whole team sucks, but somehow his name gets pulled out of the hat? People think all our prospects are going to blow in here like a tornado next season when it will more likely be a stiff breeze. You of all people should understand the folly of giving up on a talented young player. I want to see players like Moreau, Pisani, Comrie and if there is a God and he cares about hockey in Edmonton, Horcoff gone. Not Cogliano.

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02-13-2010, 10:51 PM
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When I saw the title of this thread, i thought it was about Horcoff, Staois or Moreau. Shocked to think Cogliano is entitled to anything. I don't see any foolish expectations on his part. If you can't shoot for the moon and try to be the very best you can, why bother playing at this level. I see nothing wrong with him, never heard him complain once, at least in public, and always works his arse off. Maybe not getting the results he and all of us would like, but I like the way he competes and tries to improve.
You like the way he competes?

Don't confuse skating all over the place and looking busy with the slightest bit of efficacy.

Cogs is an offensive anchor right now and worse even than the linemates that are being maligned in his defense.

Want to kill a lines production? Throw cogs on it right now.

4.9% shooting percentage and the numbers aren't lying. Right now he's simply padding goalie stats and seldom is his shot dangerous. Plus he's taken over a hundred of them.

For all his speed he's going wide all the time and firing from angles he simply can't score from. He's really for some reason(you tell me) staying away from close in areas where he could actually score.

The scatterplot of Cogliano goals would be close in. Watching his offensive zone play you'd never know it. He rarely cuts in to the slot.

He's not paying the price. Not getting quality chances.

He's played a whole season that just isn't his game. Does he even realize it?

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02-13-2010, 10:56 PM
  #31
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Didn't Gagner start the season on a line with Stortini and Moreau and scored 2 goals. As a result, he's now on the first line. Doesn't that say something about Gagner being able to score despite his linemates and Cogs can't.

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02-13-2010, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Narnia View Post
Didn't Gagner start the season on a line with Stortini and Moreau and scored 2 goals. As a result, he's now on the first line. Doesn't that say something about Gagner being able to score despite his linemates and Cogs can't.
Eh? What the heck are you talking about. He scored 18 goals his 1st two years in the league playing on the 3rd line with scrubs and almost no pp time. The guy has proved he CAN score with low minutes and 3rd line mates. We have never seen him for any length of time getting pp time or being on the top 2 lines.

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02-13-2010, 11:01 PM
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Thanks for this post! He plays with perennial losers at the moment stuck on the fourth line with line mates that can't even come close to keeping up with him on the ice. He is being set up to fail when he is put in the situations that he is in.
Oh and anything from Matheson lately is a Joke.
Cogliano is failing all on his own.

A guy with his speed one would think would get the occasional scoring chances. His reads, decisions, hands, and propensity to go wide always is himself making himself ineffective.

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02-13-2010, 11:05 PM
  #34
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I am a believer that Eberle should start next season in OKC and that MPS should probably play one more year in the SEL. For those reasons Cogs can stay on this team and hopefully rekindle some of the scoring ability he showed in his first two seasons. THN still thought his ceiling was higher than Gagner's after their rookie years.

2 seasons from now though, when MPS, Eberle and Hall/Seguin are ready to contribute (Hall/Seguin could step in the top 6 next year). Cogliano will be pretty redundant.

Man, you just wish we could deal Horcoff. I really hope Horcoff can have some success in the final 20 games to try to get back some value. You never know. After free agency ends teams get desperate.

Ideally the top 6 forwards in 2011/2012 are:

MPS-Gagner-Hemsky
Eberle-Seguin/Hall-Penner

Horcoff and Brule are on the third line I suppose?

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02-13-2010, 11:05 PM
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I hate to pile on at this point, because I feel like Cogs is on the out and becoming a bit of a whipping boy.

But how can this kid not have even a bit of self-analysis?

Yes, he scored 18 goals in each of his last two seasons. He's also averaged a 19% shooting percentage over that time. So either he's the greatest sniper in the history of the game, better than Mario in his prime... or he's had an incredible run of sevens and elevens and his luck dried up this year.

Maybe kids who are 22 aren't the best at looking in the mirror. But the kid is an absolute space cadet if he doesn't realize that those 18 goals were a combination of skill and seriously good luck.

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02-13-2010, 11:19 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schitzo View Post
I hate to pile on at this point, because I feel like Cogs is on the out and becoming a bit of a whipping boy.

But how can this kid not have even a bit of self-analysis?

Yes, he scored 18 goals in each of his last two seasons. He's also averaged a 19% shooting percentage over that time. So either he's the greatest sniper in the history of the game, better than Mario in his prime... or he's had an incredible run of sevens and elevens and his luck dried up this year.

Maybe kids who are 22 aren't the best at looking in the mirror. But the kid is an absolute space cadet if he doesn't realize that those 18 goals were a combination of skill and seriously good luck.
Who was Cogs playing with when he got those 18 goals?

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02-13-2010, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Narnia View Post
Didn't Gagner start the season on a line with Stortini and Moreau and scored 2 goals. As a result, he's now on the first line. Doesn't that say something about Gagner being able to score despite his linemates and Cogs can't.
I am almost blown away that you actually used this as an example. You jumped up and down, ranted and raved in just about every thread going the whole time over and over. Saying how they were ruining Gagner, turning him into checker and you guaranteed he would be stuck there for the season.


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He may be a good player, but he's a career 2nd liner at best, I don't understand why people want to keep this kid around when he's clearly prime tradebait who can get the Oilers something else they need, whether its in a package for something bigger, or for a valuable component for their bottom 6, or even a defenseman.

With Eberle and MPS coming up through the ranks, and a guy like Brule already on the team, there is no point for Cogliano to be here long term. Truth.
I always find this a bit interesting though. A few seasons ago Cogs and Gags were the reason to get rid of this player and that player. We needed to make room for them as they are our young core up front. It is interesting because it changes in a hurry. Before them we needed to get rid of this guy and that to make room for young guns like Torres and Stoll. Just saying as there is certainly no guarantee, despite how much I like Eberle that he will end up as anything more than a 2nd liner as well (not that that is bad thing for either Cogs or Eberle - good second liners can be valuable too).

I am not saying you do not have a point. I would actually look at it more from the point that we have too many guys that are the same. Because they are small, skilled, soft like Nilsson, Gagner, Cogs, POS, Comrie. Not just because they have 2nd line potential. There are more than one that could be trade bait, not just Cogliano.


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Who was Cogs playing with when he got those 18 goals?
Which 18 goal season? The first one or the second one? Cogs spent an awful lot of time on a line with Ethan Moreau and when healthy Pisani. As well as a number of other line mates. He spent some time on the kid line too. I would guess he scored some in both situations without trying to look it up. But generally probably spent more time with Ethan Moreau and various other wingers.


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Old
02-13-2010, 11:25 PM
  #38
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Who was Cogs playing with when he got those 18 goals?
Does it matter? Nobody can sustain that kind of shooting.

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02-13-2010, 11:29 PM
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Very good point by the OP.

There is a reason why:
- Tambo is willing to include him in the deal for Heatley
- Pat Quinn would only play him on the 3rd & 4th line
- Pat Quinn didn't want to give him power play time

It is the naive, arrogance, immaturity in a player that slow his own development. If anyone here knows someone inside this room, you have heard stories about this player.

GM and coach could not give a "person"(not player) prominent role because it's bad example for other young players, and it is bad for Cogs himself. They are trying to mold him and shape his rough edges.

Gagner started the the year on the 4th line, he acted much more mature and willing to accept the role, scrapped & fought, played well with his 4th line linemates, improved and continued his development. For Cogs, you could tell, Quinn basically used the same 3rd 4th line guys that he used with Gagne, but Cogs was not willing.

Gagner submitted and played with his heart. Cogs thought he deserved better and fought Quinn.

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02-13-2010, 11:37 PM
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I am almost blown away that you actually used this as an example.
Im glad you threw in the "almost".

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02-13-2010, 11:40 PM
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Mact struggled to find Cogliano a spot in the top 6 as well, so its not like Cogliano's placement in the bottom 6 is because of Quinn. Two coaching regimes, and some slight additions/subtractions to the lineup and Cogliano still finds himself in the bottom 6. He has great speed, but doesn't know how to use it to put himself in prime scoring areas, nor does it seem like he is willing to battle for that ice anyways. He has only himself to blame for his demise this year.

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02-13-2010, 11:44 PM
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Very good point by the OP.

There is a reason why:
- Tambo is willing to include him in the deal for Heatley
- Pat Quinn would only play him on the 3rd & 4th line
- Pat Quinn didn't want to give him power play time

It is the naive, arrogance, immaturity in a player that slow his own development. If anyone here knows someone inside this room, you have heard stories about this player.

GM and coach could not give a "person"(not player) prominent role because it's bad example for other young players, and it is bad for Cogs himself. They are trying to mold him and shape his rough edges.

Gagner started the the year on the 4th line, he acted much more mature and willing to accept the role, scrapped & fought, played well with his 4th line linemates, improved and continued his development. For Cogs, you could tell, Quinn basically used the same 3rd 4th line guys that he used with Gagne, but Cogs was not willing.

Gagner submitted and played with his heart. Cogs thought he deserved better and fought Quinn.
What are you talking about? You talk like you have some in the locker room information to go on. Otherwise you have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. I am not sure why you are talking like you do. You know that Cogs fought with Quinn? You could say he did not seize the opportunity but unwilling? Not sure I get where you got that from.

You also make it sound like this just started. You do recall Cogs played on the 3rd line a lot under MacT as well right? Maybe Quinn seen that and thought he should continue down that type of path and try to be more of a checker? Also you do recall at the start of the year Quinn deciding to put a muscle / crusty player on each line. So there were only so many top six spots for Cogs, Gags, POS, Comrie, Nilsson, Brule, Hemsky, Penner, Horc to slide into. Especially when Stone and Jacques were also worked into that top six mix.


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Im glad you threw in the "almost".
Well Narnia comes out with some interesting theories sometimes. I am used to her posts for a long time so only so much surprise can be had. So yeah almost blown away but not quite.

Actually you are right that does sound kinda goofy.

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02-13-2010, 11:47 PM
  #43
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You like the way he competes?

Don't confuse skating all over the place and looking busy with the slightest bit of efficacy.

Cogs is an offensive anchor right now and worse even than the linemates that are being maligned in his defense.

Want to kill a lines production? Throw cogs on it right now.

4.9% shooting percentage and the numbers aren't lying. Right now he's simply padding goalie stats and seldom is his shot dangerous. Plus he's taken over a hundred of them.

For all his speed he's going wide all the time and firing from angles he simply can't score from. He's really for some reason(you tell me) staying away from close in areas where he could actually score.

The scatterplot of Cogliano goals would be close in. Watching his offensive zone play you'd never know it. He rarely cuts in to the slot.

He's not paying the price. Not getting quality chances.

He's played a whole season that just isn't his game. Does he even realize it?
Exactly.

He's got world class speed but he shows it through the neutral zone only. As soon as Cogliano gets the zone he is either drop passing or allowing himself to be angled away for a cupcake shot from the wing.

For his speed to ever be used in a way that makes him a scoring threat...he's got to drive to the net with & without the puck.

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02-13-2010, 11:49 PM
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Funny how a guy playing with Moreau and another plug (Pisani for part of the year) for much of the season would struggle. I mean, hell, who the hell couldn't thrive on a line with Moreau?! Absolutely shocking.

I love how a year ago this kid was untouchable, and now after getting stuck in the bottom six almost the whole season (he did have a brief stint in the top six) and thrown into a new role, its a huge surprise to people that his offensive production has dropped.

I actually don't blame Cogliano if he'd rather take on an offensive role. That's his skill set. Also, O'Sullivan has been getting the better linemates all season and has done nothing with it, yet he gets the free pass somehow. I think Cogliano gets the bum rap here simply just because we have too many small skill guys on the team already.

It's disappointing to me though that he's going to continue to be misused here.

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02-13-2010, 11:55 PM
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Exactly.

He's got world class speed but he shows it through the neutral zone only. As soon as Cogliano gets the zone he is either drop passing or allowing himself to be angled away for a cupcake shot from the wing.

For his speed to ever be used in a way that makes him a scoring threat...he's got to drive to the net with & without the puck.
Afraid to go to the tough areas, perimeter player, sounds just like another young player we gave up on this year. I wonder how many times you can do that and expect to be successful? Especially when you have such a poor record of developing draft picks, but whatever, lets get rid of him for someone else's problem.


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02-13-2010, 11:59 PM
  #46
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What are you talking about? You talk like you have some in the locker room information to go on. Otherwise you have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. I am not sure why you are talking like you do. You know that Cogs fought with Quinn? You could say he did not seize the opportunity but unwilling? Not sure I get where you got that from.

You also make it sound like this just started. You do recall Cogs played on the 3rd line a lot under MacT as well right? Maybe Quinn seen that and thought he should continue down that type of path and try to be more of a checker? Also you do recall at the start of the year Quinn deciding to put a muscle / crusty player on each line. So there were only so many top six spots for Cogs, Gags, POS, Comrie, Nilsson, Brule, Hemsky, Penner, Horc to slide into. Especially when Stone and Jacques were also worked into that top six mix.
Yes, MacT also had trouble finding top 6 fwd time for Cogs. It didn't start with Quinn, and it didn't take him long to put Cogs in the bottom 6 and he has been trying to get him to come around.

Sorry for not being very clear, i meant to say Cogs fought Quinn's method of making him work his way up from the 4th line. Gagne and Cgos were in the same boat with Quinn at the start of the season. Gagne worked and proved himself and Cogs still struggling.

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02-14-2010, 12:04 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Afraid to go to the tough areas, perimeter player, sounds just like another young player we gave up on this year. I wonder how many times you can do that and expect to be successful? Especially when you have such a poor record of developing draft picks, but whatever, lets get rid of him for some one else's problem.
I still like a lot of what I see in Cog's game. Definatley don't think he should be on the trading block but we need some veteran players who can provide proper tutorial for Cogliano to see HOW to do the things he needs to do in order to be a top 6 forward.

He's got not only tremendous top end speed...but he can break loose in one push as well.

I believe he needs to slow down through the neutral zone & save some throttle for his net drive. Speed players need to control their throttle so they have that extra burst to blow gaps against defenders.

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02-14-2010, 12:11 AM
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I still like a lot of what I see in Cog's game. Definatley don't think he should be on the trading block but we need some veteran players who can provide proper tutorial for Cogliano to see HOW to do the things he needs to do in order to be a top 6 forward.

He's got not only tremendous top end speed...but he can break loose in one push as well.

I believe he needs to slow down through the neutral zone & save some throttle for his net drive. Speed players need to control their throttle so they have that extra burst to blow gaps against defenders.
That's good stuff. I just cant understand how Cogliano gets saddled with the entitlement label from that article. Mindblowing really. There are so many problems with this team. Goaltending, Defense, "entitled" vets who are so entrenched in their bad contracts that we can do little but put up with them until they run their course. And people are griping about Cogliano. Sometimes I dont know what's more frustrating, the team or their fans.

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02-14-2010, 12:28 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Afraid to go to the tough areas, perimeter player, sounds just like another young player we gave up on this year. I wonder how many times you can do that and expect to be successful? Especially when you have such a poor record of developing draft picks, but whatever, lets get rid of him for someone else's problem.
Agreed, now that Schremp has a coach that believes in him he is much less of a perimeter player and is much more willing to fight for pucks. Again I wouldn't deal Cogs for nothing, but if we could get a guy with size like Berglund for him I most certainly would. Just because of the current roster makeup.

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02-14-2010, 12:30 AM
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False sense of entitlement? Thinking you can be good enough to play on the top lines is different is different than thinking you deserve to.
Thinking you can play on the top two lines without a lick of defense and not worrying about it? That's Cogs hockey! I mean, top players knowing about defense as well as offence? Reeediculous.

But the Todd Marchant reference is just sheer stupidity. That no-talent hack only got 19 goals and 38 points in his 22 year old season after averaging .6 points per game in his 21 year old season. The Cogs scored 18 goals and 38 points in his 21 year old season and is averaging .2 points per game in his 22 year old season. There's clearly no comparison. Marchant even talks such madness like trying like hell to just fulfill the role the team needs him to fulfill instead of assuming the proper team-first attitude of calling his own assignment.

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