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Habs Get Booed Off Ice, into Olympics

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Old
02-13-2010, 11:53 PM
  #126
googlymoogly
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
People should realize that our rants aren't heard in heaven and our polls mean nothing. We can't trade anyone or promote anyone or draft anyone or give ice time to anyone. The team we're seeing now is the best the Habs have to offer, considering the injuries. The Habs are only an average team (in the East, but not even that if they were playing in the West). With fewer injuries they'd have a better chance of making the playoffs, but that's it. There are better teams out there. We saw one in Philadelphia and again in the Bell Centre. I'd be interested in learning how the Habs could defeat the Flyers in a best of seven series.
It depends if top Habs are still injured not a good chance if they are healthy they could beat them. Take away Richards, Carter, Pronger, Giroux and see how they do.

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02-13-2010, 11:59 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post


You would seriously want Souray, Komisarek, and Beauchemin at their salaries?!

That is hilarious.

Go look up the statistic called "Games Played" and get back to me. We already have enough guys making $5 million per season or more on this team. We don't need any more - especially when they play less than 50% of the season...........

Teams like Detroit, Chicago, and Pittsburgh have built through their draft. Detroit always seemed to know when to get rid of a veteran contract at the right time, and getting a nice blend of picks and prospects in the mix (plus good drafting).

Will Markov remaining a Hab over the next four years get us a Cup? Who knows. What I do know is that he can make 6-7 million a season from now on...........
We already have Gomez...

No such thing as a re-build in Montreal - just desperation to MAKE the playoffs. The years of Les Glorieux are long over my friend.
What I was pointing out is what we lost in D man over the last decade. Trade Markov and who do you have to teach younger D? We've had issues with D since we traded Chelios and Markov is the closest we've gotten to a high caliber D man since Chelios.

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02-14-2010, 12:06 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
PLAYMAKER09

I'm not talking about winning for 2010.

I want to be winning in 2011,2012,2013,2014...........etc etc.

Markov:
a) on the bad side of 30 years
b) will want to break the bank when his contract is up
c) bad luck injuries or not, the guy is not in the lineup enough
d) seems indifferent to the potential of being identified as a team leader / captain candidate


YOU TRADE HIM WHILE HIS VALUE IS THE HIGHEST. I guarantee you his best hockey is behind him - as a Hab that is.

I'm not stupid. I realize Markov makes the rest of our D-core look horrendous when he is absent. It speaks to the lack of depth this organization has, and scouting/coaching/management takes a large share of the blame for this. But they need to realize the potential of the great return they can get for Markov NOW.

This year is a write-off. Desperate ploys and trades JUSt to make the playoffs will set this team back another several years.

SELL, SELL, SELL.

Markov will become more of a burden the longer he is with the Habs........

*And at least Gionta appears like he gives a ****....... unlike some other Habs I know.........
Just my 2 cents on your points:

a. on the bad side of 30 years

Markov just turned 31 in December. So according to you, there is no good side of 30. He's still in his prime. His point totals have increased every year except for 2003-04

b. will want to break the bank when his contract is up

There is no evidence of this. He chose to sign a discounted contract with the Habs when he could have signed anywhere else for 2-3mil more.

c. bad luck injuries or not, the guy is not in the lineup enough

Markov is not Gaborik. In his 9 years on the Habs, Markov has played 63, 56, 79, 69, 67, 77, 82 and 78 games. This year has been brutal because of the injury but he made a miraculous recovery and came back 1 month early.

d. seems indifferent to the potential of being identified as a team leader / captain candidate

Again, no evidence of this. The C is a huge weight to carry on this team. He's already got the pressure of being the #1 D, he doesn't need the added pressure. However I would give him an A.

I realize Markov makes the rest of our D-core look horrendous when he is absent

No. The D core is exposed when he isn't there, he makes the D core better when he's in the lineup.

Markov isn't a God, but he's also not the problem with this team. He is a late round gem which we've developed into a top 10 D league wide.

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02-14-2010, 12:15 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Odelein24 View Post
Just my 2 cents on your points:

a. on the bad side of 30 years

Markov just turned 31 in December. So according to you, there is no good side of 30. He's still in his prime. His point totals have increased every year except for 2003-04

b. will want to break the bank when his contract is up

There is no evidence of this. He chose to sign a discounted contract with the Habs when he could have signed anywhere else for 2-3mil more.

c. bad luck injuries or not, the guy is not in the lineup enough

Markov is not Gaborik. In his 9 years on the Habs, Markov has played 63, 56, 79, 69, 67, 77, 82 and 78 games. This year has been brutal because of the injury but he made a miraculous recovery and came back 1 month early.

d. seems indifferent to the potential of being identified as a team leader / captain candidate

Again, no evidence of this. The C is a huge weight to carry on this team. He's already got the pressure of being the #1 D, he doesn't need the added pressure. However I would give him an A.

I realize Markov makes the rest of our D-core look horrendous when he is absent

No. The D core is exposed when he isn't there, he makes the D core better when he's in the lineup.

Markov isn't a God, but he's also not the problem with this team. He is a late round gem which we've developed into a top 10 D league wide.
I respect your arguments and respect the username. Lyle Odelein is perhaps my favourite all-time Hab (maybe slightly behind Larry Robinson).

Here's my rebuttal:
a) May be in his prime, but in the long haul do we expect better numbers or worse? I'm guessing worse.
b) I think the discount thing was/is overblown. He and his agent(s) will know they can hold the Habs hostage if they want
c) Look at playoff games played as well.......
d) I want someone who WANTS that honour
e) I agree with you, I think you misinterpreted my statement. It is so obvious when Markov is not in the lineup. We rely on him TOO much.

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Old
02-14-2010, 12:19 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Odelein24 View Post
Just my 2 cents on your points:

a. on the bad side of 30 years

Markov just turned 31 in December. So according to you, there is no good side of 30. He's still in his prime. His point totals have increased every year except for 2003-04

I realize Markov makes the rest of our D-core look horrendous when he is absent

No. The D core is exposed when he isn't there, he makes the D core better when he's in the lineup.

Markov isn't a God, but he's also not the problem with this team. He is a late round gem which we've developed into a top 10 D league wide.
The bad side of thirty means the older side basically. So 29 is on the good side. Just thought I'd clear that up.

Trading Markov is basically saying we don't want to make the playoffs for at least 3 years, probably more. I'd still keep him around though, if just to pair with our young kids so they can learn from him.

Having a vet is a huge thing for a young team (As one going through a rebuild will be).

That being said, if we could get mid prospects or picks for half of the team I'd be all for it. Looking for a 5th round for Hammer right now

And I would have played Price from the beginning. I'm a Halakian (if anything) and there was no reason to bench Price after last game.

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Old
02-14-2010, 12:20 AM
  #131
Odelein24
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
I respect your arguments and respect the username. Lyle Odelein is perhaps my favourite all-time Hab (maybe slightly behind Larry Robinson).

Here's my rebuttal:
a) May be in his prime, but in the long haul do we expect better numbers or worse? I'm guessing worse.
b) I think the discount thing was/is overblown. He and his agent(s) will know they can hold the Habs hostage if they want
c) Look at playoff games played as well.......
d) I want someone who WANTS that honour
e) I agree with you, I think you misinterpreted my statement. It is so obvious when Markov is not in the lineup. We rely on him TOO much.
It was so awesome to see Lyle at the 100th anniversary

a. We don't know how his numbers are going to be. Should we also be trading any other player who's over 30?

b. I agree they could, but why didn't they last time?

c. I agree that he has been a disappointment in the playoffs, but without him do we even make the playoffs?

d. There are other players who want that honour. You mentioned Gionta and Cammalleri, those are 2 of my candidates as well.

e. I apologize for the misinterpretation.

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02-14-2010, 12:25 AM
  #132
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Scott Neidermayer, ahem, Canada's captain and one of the league's (and world's) best is 36 years old. Given me a break about Markov getting too old. The guy is pure talent. I hope he returns to 100% soon, but even then, his skill and vision is like nothing we've had in two decades. Even our last cup, maybe only Desjardins would be comparable. Let's not even talk about Malakhov (headcase) and not as cerebral.

he has embraced he organization and taken pay cuts. **** happens. For Markov in the past two seasons, a lot of ****. He doesn't look happy about it. I can't believe I even have to defend this. If we want a cup any time in the next period of time before we all kill ourselves, it will be with Markov!

I want to tear my hair out watching our season being ravaged by injuries, completely altering the topography of our season.

We are going to need zero mistakes when we are fully healthy AND some losses from our competition. It's getting worrisome and I'm feeling pretty depressed cuz we have a good team IMO (while people want to tear down the entire bell center) but one that is never on the ice. If we make the playoffs, healthy, I will not be too worried about getting bounced in the first round.

Arghhh, and I was also hoping for Heil to get that Gold. Now I can't watch Colbert. You just know he's going to rub it in.

Well, at least we beat the slovaks 18-0. Halak

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02-14-2010, 12:33 AM
  #133
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Playoffs are still very much possible

As much as tonight was a kick in the teeth, it's important to take a step back and realize things are not as bad as some make it sound.

- Since Cammalleri was injured Jan 30 against Ottawa - when many around here were throwing in the towel - we went 4-3 against some pretty tough teams, including wins over Pittsburgh and Washington.

- Even with these two losses, we are still alone in 8th place. Sure, there are three teams right behind us by less than 3 points (Tampa, Atlanta & Rangers) each with 2 or 3 games in hand, but they need to win those games first, and frankly they have been struggling pretty bad as well. Notably, Atlanta has weakened quite a bit since trading Kovalchuk and the Rangers have been pretty bad all year. Tampa is the biggest threat, IMO. There is also a good chance Boston may fall into a slump again, as they have proven they are not the world-beaters they were last year.

- As well documented, injuries have been significant recently, yet we still pulled out a winning record against stiff competition. Should be getting a number of these bodies back after the olympics. As a matter of fact, it is actually quite remarkable that given the number of injuries and to *key* players, that they are even holding down a playoff position right now! Had they won tonight (or yesterday), they would have been 6th right now. It's that close.

- Returning from the olympic break, there is a tough 4-game road trip, but the team does seem to play best against the best, so I wouldn't be too quick to chalk up those losses yet! If they are able to pull out at least 2 wins on this trip (particularly the Boston game), then everyone will be positive again.

- After that road trip, the rest of the season seems relatively mild with a few games against their key competitors, so there is no reason to believe they can't make it. After all, unless the pace drastically changes from here to the end of the season, it looks like 2 or 3 games over .500 will get the last spot in the playoffs. They are now 1 game over .500.

- Not sure why this team has been so snakebitten with regards to injuries to key players, but we really haven't had a chance to see what they can really do. Besides, weren't fans saying before the season that given the overhaul and new coach that there would be an adjustment period and that nobody expected them to contend this year anyway?

Anyway, my point of this long post (sorry!) is that once the bitterness of this loss is digested and you look at the facts in a logical manner, things are really not so bad. So cheer up.

Go Habs!

Too bad we have to wait 16 days for the next game now...

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Old
02-14-2010, 01:02 AM
  #134
Lafleurs Guy
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I don't think we're a bunch of panzies.
Who's a panzie??..Gionta??..Cammy??..Gorges that got a puck in the back of the head and played the next game??..Plek who's having a career year??..
Did you not watch as Pleks was thrown to the ice tonight and nobody... NOBODY... even looked at Carcillo the wrong way? He just stood there and said 'what are you going to do about it?'

That kind of stuff happens every night, it's pathetic.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You're the first one to say this team isn't talented enough. Don't confuse lack of talent with lack of heart.

You can maybe make a case that 1-2 players don't give their all, but most of them do.

I think we just lack the talent.
It's talent, heart, size and grit. That's why I argue that we need to start over, there are just too many problems with our core for us to legitimately think that we can win.
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Originally Posted by Playmaker09 View Post
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH

So let me get this straight. We can't win when Markov is out of the lineup... so we trade him away and start winning?
It won't happen immediately but yes, trading Markov makes sense as long as we do it for long term gain. Top picks and prospects are what we should be looking at.
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Originally Posted by Playmaker09 View Post
Apparently you're the one who expects him to be a God. He's somehow supposed to be able to carry our sorry excuse for a team while battling through injuries?

There's this thing that most good teams have, it's called depth. When our defense without Markov looks like a bunch of pylons, I hope you can tell we don't have any. Trading Markov away would only expose our defensive flaws even more. Then we have Hamrlik and Spacek who will likely leave after their contracts are done so we'll be left with the Hamilton Bulldogs on D.

And really? Two guys who've been injured for lengthy periods of time already, in this, their first year as Habs (Maybe this will continue and form a pattern) for captain? Someone likes to contradict himself.
Winning teams have depth, but they also have superstars. We have neither.
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Originally Posted by JackZap View Post
I get what u are saying. You could trade Markov for another elite player but on the other hand, Markov could play for another 7 years for this team. Even at 37, he will be in our top 3.
Or we could trade him for a high pick or prospect and that player will be in his mid 20s 7 years from now. That makes a lot more sense for us because maybe by then we'd actually have a chance at winning something.
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Originally Posted by SMoneyMonkey View Post
The bad side of thirty means the older side basically. So 29 is on the good side. Just thought I'd clear that up.

Trading Markov is basically saying we don't want to make the playoffs for at least 3 years, probably more. I'd still keep him around though, if just to pair with our young kids so they can learn from him.

Having a vet is a huge thing for a young team (As one going through a rebuild will be).

That being said, if we could get mid prospects or picks for half of the team I'd be all for it. Looking for a 5th round for Hammer right now

And I would have played Price from the beginning. I'm a Halakian (if anything) and there was no reason to bench Price after last game.
Having a mentor only means something if you have elite prospects to take advantage of it. We'd be better off dealing Markov for that kind of talent and then getting an over the hill guy who's been around to be the mentor for a year or two. Brendan Shanahan type guys are always available for one last year if you're wiling to give them the money.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-14-2010 at 01:09 AM.
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Old
02-14-2010, 03:40 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Having a mentor only means something if you have elite prospects to take advantage of it. We'd be better off dealing Markov for that kind of talent and then getting an over the hill guy who's been around to be the mentor for a year or two. Brendan Shanahan type guys are always available for one last year if you're wiling to give them the money.
Couldn't really argue with the deleted portion of your post, but this last section is, well, horse crap. Having one of the best defenders in the league, and a leader on possibly the best international team in hockey right now, benefits any young player you bring into the organization; regardless of their talent level. Markov probably has 5 more solid years (at least?) ahead of him. If his play is so bad (and getting worse, as some would try to suggest), wouldn't that mean he'd be just as cheap (or cheaper) next time FA rolls around?

Also, "Shanahan type guys" play forward, take up only 1 of 12 forward positions, and don't hurt the team as much if they find themselves in the press box from time to time (or recovering from the odd old guy injury). Which veteran d-man is going to provide that level of example/mentorship at significantly less money (like you said, you gotta "show those guys the money") while also playing well enough to improve the strength of the d-corps rather than finding themselves in the press box or infirmary more often than we'd like?

Not saying it's impossible. It's just one of the furthest considerations/gambles (yes, it would be classified as a HUGE gamble) from the mind of any team that has Markov right now, next year, or even a few years after that, whether they go the complete rebuild route or are gunning for a Cup. I understand what you're saying about "cashing in on his value", but there's no way anyone else is coming in over the next 3-5 years that is even going to rival Markov in overall ability (*anticipates the playing of the PK Subban card), so I think you're better off keeping him and trying to improve the other 5 spots as best you can. You can follow your plan and still have Markov playing valuable minutes outside of the top pairing in his "twilight" mid-30s... possibly for less of a cap hit than some might think.

Furthermore, given the number of radical changes that have been made to this team's core recently (with mixed success so far), I don't think I could defend trading away one of the team's most long-standing members, especially given that he has been the team's best player pretty much the whole time, unless there was a drastic/remarkably negative development. Hamrlik, Spacek, Gill, Mara, Bergeron, etc (even O'Byrne, really), however, hold no particularly special place in my heart as a long-time Habs fan, and occupy enough cap and roster space to play around with if we only had a magic eraser right now.

I mean, this team would be in pretty good shape with Markov on a second pairing (even at his current $5M), and two more deserving guys ahead of him on the 1st. Certainly better than paying $9(+?) million for the services being rendered by the current 2nd pairing (read: Hamrlik and Spacek).

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Old
02-14-2010, 04:31 AM
  #136
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Fire Martin make Guy Boucher head coach and Patrick Roy assiatan coach / goalie coach

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02-14-2010, 04:31 AM
  #137
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LMAO, you guys aren't serious are you ? You bunch of frustated bandwaggoner blithering *****. The Habs were without ( Markov,Cammy,Pouls,Kosty ( that right there is a first line in the NHL),Mara,). What did you expect, the Flyers are one of the lucky teams that injuries are sparing them. Carter is there, Richards, Danielle Briere, Gagne missed a few, but NOTHING like the Habs. The Flyers with that lineup should be better than the Sabres.


After this game to think that ColdPlay gave me **** for predicting a 4-1 Flyers win !

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02-14-2010, 05:26 AM
  #138
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Not too much to cheer about in that game:

PK. WOW. Whole new attitude he brings to the team. I hope it is infectious. Worked his way into drawing penalties. Love his game

Gomez has been our most consistent player lately. Folks should get off the contract kick and be happy we have him

Price came into a situation where it would be easy to just go through the motions. I liked his focus and desire. What gives with the boneheads that boo him during the pregame intros???

Downside:
Halak did not have a good game at all but I do not blame him for the loss. Those rebounds were not good at all, but the D could have covered for them better

Not too many guys stood out for their efforts.

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02-14-2010, 07:24 AM
  #139
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Just so I get it.. everyone think this team is sh** cause we lost to the Flyers again ?


well, good news, this team IS ****... just like any other team who has to play without their #1D, their best goal scorer, 2/3 of their first line, their new winger who was red hot (11G in 20 games), etc... and with two D (Gorges and Spacek) who are still banged up...

Desharnais, D'agostini, Darche, Pyatt... replacing guys like Cam, A.K., Pouliot...

pretty easy to me, with the current line up, our D has to be perfect or our goalie have to steal the game for us to win...

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02-14-2010, 07:46 AM
  #140
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One of the worst games all year for the defence. Multiple problems especially in front of the net. If you're not taking the man or clearing the rebound, you're watching the puck go in the net. Gotta believe injuries played a part.

The break may be just what the doctor ordered for the team(no pun intended).

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02-14-2010, 08:11 AM
  #141
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Didn't see the game, lucky for me...was Halak bad, or was it the guys in front of him? 5 goals on 17 shots? So much for the team plays better for Jaro???

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02-14-2010, 08:13 AM
  #142
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LMAO, you guys aren't serious are you ? You bunch of frustated bandwaggoner blithering *****. The Habs were without ( Markov,Cammy,Pouls,Kosty ( that right there is a first line in the NHL),Mara,). What did you expect, the Flyers are one of the lucky teams that injuries are sparing them. Carter is there, Richards, Danielle Briere, Gagne missed a few, but NOTHING like the Habs. The Flyers with that lineup should be better than the Sabres.


After this game to think that ColdPlay gave me **** for predicting a 4-1 Flyers win !
any idea how many man games to injury we have lost....??? It's gotta be brutal, and especially where it's been Markov,Cammy,Akost,Gionta etc...

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02-14-2010, 08:21 AM
  #143
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One of the worst games all year for the defence. Multiple problems especially in front of the net. If you're not taking the man or clearing the rebound, you're watching the puck go in the net. Gotta believe injuries played a part.

The break may be just what the doctor ordered for the team(no pun intended).
In that game I'd give the D and Halak half the blame each. Some of those rebounds back into the slot or on the doorstep are Halak's fault too. Before this hot streak I thought it was his worst habit

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02-14-2010, 08:27 AM
  #144
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Rejoice people!! 2 weeks of quality hockey coming up!
The 2 weeks will also be the longest time this season that we don't lose a game or someone gets injured. (Smart ass yes, but it is true)

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02-14-2010, 08:40 AM
  #145
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Didn't see the game, lucky for me...was Halak bad, or was it the guys in front of him? 5 goals on 17 shots? So much for the team plays better for Jaro???
Jaro was bad
The D as a whole were very bad... A couple of Ds were awful.

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02-14-2010, 08:46 AM
  #146
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Injuries starting to take a major toll on this team....nothing surprising about this bad streak. Just have to bare it out until we get healthier.

Only shocking and disappointing thing is our lack of muscle. Although he was much maligned, we still could had used BGL in games like the last 2.

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02-14-2010, 08:48 AM
  #147
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To Odelein24: the problem going forward isn't Markov, it's Gomez's contract.

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02-14-2010, 09:42 AM
  #148
Chili
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
In that game I'd give the D and Halak half the blame each. Some of those rebounds back into the slot or on the doorstep are Halak's fault too. Before this hot streak I thought it was his worst habit
The Flyers were owning the front of the net. The Habs normally do a decent job there but not last night. I doubt Jacques Plante would have fared alot better last night. Leighton at the other end had very few Habs to deal with in front of his crease. It makes all the difference because that's where the majority of goals are scored from.

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Old
02-14-2010, 09:44 AM
  #149
RE-HABS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S1C1L1AN78 View Post
Fire Martin make Guy Boucher head coach and Patrick Roy assiatan coach / goalie coach
Because Martin and the our Assistant Coaches are beating the players and injuring them???

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Old
02-14-2010, 10:32 AM
  #150
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Did you not watch as Pleks was thrown to the ice tonight and nobody... NOBODY... even looked at Carcillo the wrong way? He just stood there and said 'what are you going to do about it?'

That kind of stuff happens every night, it's pathetic.

It's talent, heart, size and grit. That's why I argue that we need to start over, there are just too many problems with our core for us to legitimately think that we can win.
Yes, I did see Plek get pushed from behind by Carcillo who's a known pest. Who should have jumped him...S.Kost??..Moore??..so they can get creamed like O'By??..
Didn't Moen invite Carcillo to fight but he declined??..Wasn't on the same shift.

I also saw O'Byrne get completely KOd. Did you want someone else to fight Laperriere for revenge??..Who should it have been??..Lappy?..Gill??...Why exactly??..to lose yet another fight and give them more momentum??


I agree, we lack size, grit and talent on bottom 6 and our D. But I disagree with heart. You say you see a Habs team get intimidated and pushed around every game but I don't. I see players stick up for each other even if they're small. What's frustrating is that we don't have big aggressive guys. It's not because our players don't drop their gloves or jump any player every time there's a ''dirty'' hit that they lack heart.

Calling them heartless is an exaggeration.

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