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Old
02-18-2010, 07:36 PM
  #1
Rhodes 81
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A Matter of Perspective

i've been thinking about what waddell has done with the two most valuable assets this franchise has ever owned, danny heatley and ilya kovalchuk

-danny heatley-drafted 2nd overall 2000
-traded for marian hossa and greg de vries
-greg de vries walks as free agent
-marian hossa traded with pascal dupuis for colby armstrong, erik christensen, pittsburgh's first round pick, and angelo esposito.
-erik christensen traded for eric o'dell
-outside pieces traded:dupuis(acquired for alex bourret[16th overall pick] along with rangers 3rd round pick in 2007)
-3rd round pick traded to pittsburgh for chirs thorburn

-ilya kovalchuk drafted 1st overall in 2001
-traded along with anssi salmela and a 2010 2nd round draft pick for johnny oduya, nic bergfors, patrice cormier, new jersey's first and 2nd overall draft picks
-salmela was acquired for nicals havelid and miles stoesz
-stoesz was drafted 207th overall in 2005
-havelid was acquired for curtis foster
-foster was acquired along with jeff cowan for petr buzek
-cowan was traded for kip brennan
-brennan left as a free agent
-buzek was acquired through the expansion draft(originally 63rd overall in 1995)

When you break the final acquisitions down to the original pieces that got them there it looks like this

Thrashers traded
1st overall 2001(kovalchuk)
2nd overall 2000 (heatley)
16th overall 2005 (bourret)
37th overall pick 2010(currently)(2nd round pick 2010)
63rd overall 1995 (buzek)
207th overall 2005 (stoesz)

Thrashers received
20th overall 2007 (esposito)
21st overall 2001 (armstrong)
23rd overall 2005 (bergfors)
25th overall 2010 (currently)(1st round pick 2010)
29th overall 2008 (levielle)
39th overall 2008 (o'dell)
50th overall 2001 (thorburn)
54th overall 2008 (cormier)
55th overall 2010 (currently)(2nd round pick 2010)
221st overall 2001 (oduya)

so in essence we traded
3 first round picks
1 2nd round pick
1 3rd round pick
1 7th round pick

for
5 first round picks
4 2nd round picks
1 8th round pick

average position of assets traded-54th overall
average position of assets received-54th overall

i know quantity doesn't equal quality, but we've built half a team from 6 players. i'm not trying to make excuses for waddell, but when you look at exactly what we gave up for exactly what we have received it doesn't look as bad as what many of us have believed it has for so long.

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Old
02-18-2010, 08:04 PM
  #2
Peter Sidorkiewicz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhodes 10 View Post
-danny heatley-drafted 2nd overall 2000
-traded for marian hossa and greg de vries WIN lucky to get a superstar back for damaged goods
-greg de vries walks as free agent
-marian hossa traded with pascal dupuis for colby armstrong, erik christensen, pittsburgh's first round pick, and angelo esposito. LOSS, christiansen busts, esposito injured, Leuville doesn't look impressive in college
-erik christensen traded for eric o'dell WIN
-outside pieces traded:dupuis(acquired for alex bourret[16th overall pick] along with rangers 3rd round pick in 2007) LOSS, not the trade but drafting Bourret
-3rd round pick traded to pittsburgh for chirs thorburn LOSS, overpaid

-ilya kovalchuk drafted 1st overall in 2001
-traded along with anssi salmela and a 2010 2nd round draft pick for johnny oduya, nic bergfors, patrice cormier, new jersey's first and 2nd overall draft picks LOSS, DW should of built a competitive team by now to keep Ilya for life
-salmela was acquired for nicals havelid and miles stoesz WIN
-stoesz was drafted 207th overall in 2005
-havelid was acquired for curtis foster WIN, although Foster had an OK career
-foster was acquired along with jeff cowan for petr buzek WIN
-cowan was traded for kip brennan LOSS
-brennan left as a free agent
-buzek was acquired through the expansion draft(originally 63rd overall in 1995)
I count 5 wins and 5 losses out of those deals. I don't think 50% success rate is a good record for a GM plus DW has made plenty of other bonehead moves like Coburn for Zhinik, letting Brunette and Savard walk, signing Rucchi, Holik.

DW has got better in the past couple of seasons but a change needs to be made after 9 out of 10 years of fail. Dudley should be given 100% control.

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Old
02-18-2010, 08:46 PM
  #3
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Coburn for Zhitnik wasn't a bad deal at the time. Coburn had a good year in Philly, but all the philly fans seem to be trying to deal him now anyway. Don't forget he was a bit of a malcontent in Atlanta as well.

Letting Brunette and Savard walk were stupid.

Signing Holik and Ruccin didn't look like bad deals at the time.

3rd Rounder for Thorburn wasn't bad. Thor has become a solid 4th liner. Chances are a 3rd round pick would have never made it to the NHL.

Trading Ilya wasn't a bad move. It's starting to look like he's actually what was holding us back.

So many of these moves we look back on and think they were bad using knowledge we have now. You can't really do that. You have to take them for what they're worth at the time.

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Old
02-18-2010, 09:09 PM
  #4
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It is the absolute piss they have done with the majority of their other picks that has put the franchise in the position it has been over the previous two years.

If they had just gotten 2-3 NHL caliber forwards outside of the 1st round things could have been much different.

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Old
02-18-2010, 11:31 PM
  #5
Peter Sidorkiewicz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneel View Post
Coburn for Zhitnik wasn't a bad deal at the time. Coburn had a good year in Philly, but all the philly fans seem to be trying to deal him now anyway. Don't forget he was a bit of a malcontent in Atlanta as well..
Yes it was a bad deal and still is a bad deal. Zhitnik was waived earlier in the season and gave up on Coburn way too early.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneel View Post
Letting Brunette and Savard walk were stupid...
Agree, especially Bruno. Savard might of been an Ilya situation. He said he wanted to re-sign but may of signed with Boston any way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneel View Post
Signing Holik and Ruccin didn't look like bad deals at the time..
Rucchin was bad from the start as DW used the 'Savard funds' to sign Rucchin. Holik contract was also a no win. Unless DW expected him to become a 60 points 2nd line center which he hadn't been in several seasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneel View Post
3rd Rounder for Thorburn wasn't bad. Thor has become a solid 4th liner. Chances are a 3rd round pick would have never made it to the NHL.
Thorburn has been serviceable. But at the time of the trade he was an AHL player. You don't spend 3rd rounders on bottom 6 players or bottom pairing d-mans (Majesky for 2nd rounder)

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneel View Post
Trading Ilya wasn't a bad move. It's starting to look like he's actually what was holding us back.
Obviously it was necessary considering he wasn't going to re-sign anytime soon but it really shouldn't had got to that stage.

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Old
02-19-2010, 06:51 AM
  #6
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You can polish a turd all day long but in the end it's still a piece of ****.

Don Waddell's tenure as GM can't be seen as anything but a massive failure. He had six years to build a competitive team around two superstar forwards and failed.

A real GM would have tried to solve his goaltending problems with something other than a career backup and a not ready for prime time player.

A real Gm would have gone out and found a coach that can motivate and get the most out of his players.

A real GM that found himself still rebuilding after ten years would find soon himself in the un-employment line.

I'm sorry but all this sugar coating the last two weeks can't be good for anybody's glucose levels.

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Old
02-19-2010, 07:07 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
You can polish a turd all day long but in the end it's still a piece of ****.

Don Waddell's tenure as GM can't be seen as anything but a massive failure. He had six years to build a competitive team around two superstar forwards and failed.

A real GM would have tried to solve his goaltending problems with something other than a career backup and a not ready for prime time player.

A real Gm would have gone out and found a coach that can motivate and get the most out of his players.

A real GM that found himself still rebuilding after ten years would find soon himself in the un-employment line.

I'm sorry but all this sugar coating the last two weeks can't be good for anybody's glucose levels.
With the exception being the last sentence, I agree with this post.

You can dissect his deals all day long...but in the end:

10 years + 0 playoff wins + declining fan base = fail.

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Old
02-19-2010, 07:10 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaWhaler View Post
With the exception being the last sentence, I agree with this post.

You can dissect his deals all day long...but in the end:

10 years + 0 playoff wins + declining fan base = fail.
This is the truth!

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02-19-2010, 11:04 AM
  #9
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I agree with Bongo even though I'm a DW apologist.

He's always tried to build a team around a star instead of building a base. Not replacing Kari (at least temporarily) or Savard properly were just terrible non-moves. Re-signing Kozlov for the last deal was insane and I was hugely against it at the time.

Hartley (who had waaaaay to much power here) needed to be fired right at the time he was extended. !!!

Bringing in Anderson is okay...if first you purge the team of the old guard. Havelid, Kozlov, Kovalchuk, and guys like Perrin who were either Hartley suck-ups or guys that do things their own way killed Anderson. Now he's starting to look a bit more competent.

Thank goodness Dudley is now calling the shots.

DW used to say it didn't matter who played center when you've got wingers like Kovalchuk or Hossa. That was how bad it was. We had Slater centering Hossa and Metropolit (who I like) centering Kovalchuk!

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Old
02-19-2010, 11:58 AM
  #10
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There's plenty to complain about. I'm withholding judgement until I learn/see...

1 - How this team does in March/April will tell us a lot about the remaining pieces.

2 - How much does Ilya sign for wherever? It ain't going to be max, but it will be interesting to see. He's very much trying out for his new contract over the next six weeks and playoffs with the Devils.

3 - How much the team drops season ticket prices next year. (I assume it's a token drop, and face value will be unchanged.)

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Old
02-19-2010, 02:55 PM
  #11
Rhodes 81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
You can polish a turd all day long but in the end it's still a piece of ****.

Don Waddell's tenure as GM can't be seen as anything but a massive failure. He had six years to build a competitive team around two superstar forwards and failed.

A real GM would have tried to solve his goaltending problems with something other than a career backup and a not ready for prime time player.

A real Gm would have gone out and found a coach that can motivate and get the most out of his players.

A real GM that found himself still rebuilding after ten years would find soon himself in the un-employment line.

I'm sorry but all this sugar coating the last two weeks can't be good for anybody's glucose levels.
like i said, i'm not trying to make excuses. waddell is a bad gm that has made some bad decisions, however i dislike people who just gloss over the successes and focus only on the failures or just attribute any success to dudley. you people do realize he wasn't added to the mix until june 22nd right?

waddell is a bad gm, but the way a lot of you talk about him you'd think we had finished 30th every single year and had nothing but 4th round picks playing for us.

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Old
02-19-2010, 02:58 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by LetNoneIn View Post
1 - How this team does in March/April will tell us a lot about the remaining pieces.
this will be a starting point, but you have to remember most of the talent this franchise has built up over the last few years is still in juniors/ahl. i'd care to bet that 3 of our top 6 players in 4 years are still in the juniors right now.

it will be interesting to see where the team goes. we could make a serious playoff run, or we could be mediocre. it all depends on how we come back from the break. if we are firing on all cylinders like we were in the last few games before the break we should do well. if any of our guys isn't going at 100% we'll struggle.

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Old
02-19-2010, 03:25 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhodes 10 View Post
waddell is a bad gm, but the way a lot of you talk about him you'd think we had finished 30th every single year and had nothing but 4th round picks playing for us.
Another thing nobody considers is how Waddell's been hamstrung by management. it's an expansion team made up initially of castoffs starting with a weak overall draft and ownership issues directly out of the gate.

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Old
02-19-2010, 08:05 PM
  #14
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With Dudley now in charge of drafts and most likely player acquisitions, I believe the situation has already been rectified.

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Old
02-20-2010, 02:58 PM
  #15
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There are certain indisputable facts in the world. The Earth is round. Water is wet. Waddell is awful. It's relatively pointless to discuss the extent of his sucking, because he will probably never be fired... ever.

I also don't get why so many Thrashers fans consider Dudley their savior. He was a pretty crappy GM during his tenures.

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Old
02-20-2010, 04:07 PM
  #16
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A lot of folks like Dudley because he built the groundwork for the Lightning team that won the cup, and he's generally credited as being responsible for drafting the young talent in Chicago that everyone is in love with.

Even though he looks like a strange pimp, he's got a pretty impressive resume, and he's seen as being, at least symbolically, a change of direction.

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02-20-2010, 04:32 PM
  #17
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Time for Dudley to give Tore Vikingstad a call.

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Old
02-20-2010, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
There are certain indisputable facts in the world. The Earth is round. Water is wet. Waddell is awful. It's relatively pointless to discuss the extent of his sucking, because he will probably never be fired... ever.

I also don't get why so many Thrashers fans consider Dudley their savior. He was a pretty crappy GM during his tenures.
I don't know too many people around here who feel that way and all I said is that I think that he oversees the things I mentioned.

Dudley as a GM can leave a little to be desired, but as a talent evaluator/team architect and drafter he has a pretty impressive track record. Don't forget he was basically forced out in Chicago so Bowman's son could be GM. Besides if I remember correctly he has stated that he is much happier doing what he is doing eval'ing talent and helping the scouts than he was as a GM. What he is doing now is the GM stuff he likes to do, so I think he is just happy to continue being in the background. Or I could be completely off and he is sharpening the knife for DW's back.

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02-21-2010, 02:55 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shameus View Post
I don't know too many people around here who feel that way and all I said is that I think that he oversees the things I mentioned.

Dudley as a GM can leave a little to be desired, but as a talent evaluator/team architect and drafter he has a pretty impressive track record. Don't forget he was basically forced out in Chicago so Bowman's son could be GM. Besides if I remember correctly he has stated that he is much happier doing what he is doing eval'ing talent and helping the scouts than he was as a GM. What he is doing now is the GM stuff he likes to do, so I think he is just happy to continue being in the background. Or I could be completely off and he is sharpening the knife for DW's back.
As a talent evaluator I think he's pretty good- you can't argue with a track record of Kane-Toews-Versteeg-Ladd and the like. If he is jockeying to become a GM though... that'd might be even worse than DW. Guy has definitely mismanaged a couple of times (e.g. the contract situation in chicago)

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02-21-2010, 04:15 PM
  #20
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Time for Dudley to give Tore Vikingstad a call.
i'd rather have zuccarello aasen. dude's only 22 and has a great skill set. he's got an nhl job if he want's it after this tournament.

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Old
02-21-2010, 05:20 PM
  #21
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Bull ****!

The earth is flat!

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Old
02-21-2010, 05:27 PM
  #22
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Bull ****!

The earth is flat!
Earth is a quadrilateral and you know it. Stop that.

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Old
02-22-2010, 10:34 AM
  #23
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Quote:
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As a talent evaluator I think he's pretty good- you can't argue with a track record of Kane-Toews-Versteeg-Ladd and the like. If he is jockeying to become a GM though... that'd might be even worse than DW. Guy has definitely mismanaged a couple of times (e.g. the contract situation in chicago)
QFT. The tandem we have now seems to be working well. Our late picks are looking good, and our team now looks good. Get us a goalie, and we are good to go. Coburn who is the new philli scapegoat wasnt ready for the NHL. and we shipped him off for a piece to get us a taste of the playoffs. Tkchuk? The first didnt really blossom either way. I say we made out well considering.

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02-23-2010, 12:08 AM
  #24
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i'd rather have zuccarello aasen. dude's only 22 and has a great skill set. he's got an nhl job if he want's it after this tournament.
I'd take any of the Norwegian trio (Vikingstad, Zuccarello Aasen, Thoresen). I wouldn't be shocked to see all three in NHL camps this summer.

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Old
02-23-2010, 12:58 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhodes 10 View Post
like i said, i'm not trying to make excuses. waddell is a bad gm that has made some bad decisions, however i dislike people who just gloss over the successes and focus only on the failures or just attribute any success to dudley. you people do realize he wasn't added to the mix until june 22nd right?

waddell is a bad gm, but the way a lot of you talk about him you'd think we had finished 30th every single year and had nothing but 4th round picks playing for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneel View Post
Another thing nobody considers is how Waddell's been hamstrung by management. it's an expansion team made up initially of castoffs starting with a weak overall draft and ownership issues directly out of the gate.
First of all, Atlanta has not finished 30th every year but they have finished

99-00 - 39 pts - 28th (last)

00-01 - 60 pts - 28th

01-02 - 54 pts - 30th (last) (btw, the Penguins only had 69 points that year)

02-03 - 74 pts - 24th (btw, the Penguins only had 65 points that year, Nashville had 74, san Jose 73, carolina 61, buffalo 72. all teams with some success since)

03-04 - 78 pts - 21st (btw, the Penguins only had 58 points, chicago 59, Nashville 91, anaheim 76, carolina 76, buffalo 85. washington 59. all teams with some success since)

04-05 - 0 pts thankfully

05-06 - 90 pts - 17th (tie) (btw, the Penguins had 58 points, chicago 65, Nashville 106, anaheim 98, carolina 112, buffalo 110. washington 70)

06-07 - 97 pts - 12th (btw, the Penguins had 105 points, chicago 71, Nashville 110, anaheim 110, carolina 88, buffalo 113. washington 70 again. all teams with some success since)

07-08 - 76 pts - 28th (btw, the Penguins had 102 points, chicago 88, Nashville 91, anaheim 102, carolina 92, buffalo 90. washington 94 again.)

08-09 - 76 pts - 28th this is getting old.....

So, two season of 90 or more points and higher than 20th only twice but bottom three FIVE times

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