Should we not have traded Ralph Backstrom for the pick that turned into Guy Lafleur? That pick didn't contribute right away did it? Losing Backstrom hurt in the short term but overall it was a smart move.
I'm not expecting us to be able to pull off something like this again but if we follow your line of thinking, the Lafleur trade was a bad move.
OK, a couple of historical corrections are BADLY needed here.
First, Backstrom was NOT traded for the pick that turned into Guy Lafleur.
1970-Jun-10 Ernie Hicke Traded from Montreal Canadiens with round 1 pick in the 1970 draft (Chris Oddleifson) to Oakland Seals for Francois Lacombe, round 1 pick in the 1971 draft and cash .
Pollock, knowing Oakland did not have the first pick in 1970, was shooting for them having the first pick in 1971 and thus getting Laleur.
However, midway through the 1971 season, the Kings were below the Oakland Seals so Pollock sent Backstrom to Los Angeles to boost their chances and it worked. Oakland ended up finishing last, and Los Angeles second to last (LA picked Marcel Dionne).
But.....not so fast. I want to point out that Pollock did not EXCLUSIVELY play his rebuilding cards. Believe it or not, during the very same year 70-71, he did THIS:
1971Jan-13 Mickey Redmond, Guy Charron and Bill Collins Traded from Montreal Canadiens to Detroit Red Wings for Frank Mahovlich.
Pollock made this move at a time when the Habs were coming off their first non-playoff year in over 20 seasons, during a season when the Boston Bruins were racking up the highest point total in NHL history to date and sported a young stud named Bobby Orr who was in the midst of his BEST season, with a +124.
The day the Habs made this trade, their record was 19-13-8, middle of the pack in the East and slumping. Their most talented defenceman, Serge Savard, had just broken his leg for the second straight year and was out till October of the next year.
Absolutely NO ONE gave the Habs any chance of beating ANY of the three best teams in the league, Boston, Chicago and New York. Fans and media were calling for Sam Pollock's head and many were demanding the team be blown up and rebuilt. Montreal was also in the midst of a goalie controversy, with Rogie Vachon and Phil Myre alternating as #1 almost every two weeks. The Habs top two centremen were 39 and 35 years old. JEan Beliveau was coming off one of his worst seasons ever in 69-70 scoring only 19 goals and 49 points. Henri Richard was also in the twilight, in his fourth straight season of less than 20 goals.
In the midst of ALL these negative signs, Pollock made the boldest trade of his career, and Frank Mahovlich scored 27 points in 20 playoff games to finish 2nd in the Conn Smythe voting to Ken Dryden (Vachon, Myre? Who cares!!). Mahovlich posted 23 points in 17 games in 72-73 to again help lead the team to a Cup (runner up for the Smythe trophy AGAIN!).
My point in all of this is to show that Sam Pollock, perhaps the greatest GM of all time, neither blew up and rebuilt NOR desperately traded for aging vets all of the time. He shrewdly tweaked his team with different kinds of moves, for a long time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy
And why does trading a 2nd rounder for another marginal NHLer who is a UFA make sense? Why make these kinds of short term moves that are designed for nothing other than an 8th place finish and 1st round exit? Don't you want us to win another cup someday? How do you propose we do this? Short term moves aren't going to work with the core we have.
What makes you think we were (and are) playoff bound?
Well, there IS a pretty good chance the club could make the playoffs. And there is some talent on the team at the moment. I would have had no problem with making a bold move toward REAL short-term strength and giving up some assets to do so. But I was and am still against trading a 2nd round pick for Dominic Moore. Vast overpayment for a 3rd line player at best. Poor asset management.
Well, we can also do like the Hawks o Caps, win nothing for about 40 years and build trough the draft...
doesnt matter if it takes 40 years rght ? as long as you arent paying for any tickets...
It's taken the Caps about five years since their rebuild started. Ditto with the Hawks. They're much further ahead of us now and we've been treading water for 15 years so if you want 40 years of futiilty we can just stick with what we're doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach
OK, a couple of historical corrections are BADLY needed here.
First, Backstrom was NOT traded for the pick that turned into Guy Lafleur.
Whoops, you're correct. My mistake, thanks for correcting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach
Well, there IS a pretty good chance the club could make the playoffs. And there is some talent on the team at the moment. I would have had no problem with making a bold move toward REAL short-term strength and giving up some assets to do so. But I was and am still against trading a 2nd round pick for Dominic Moore. Vast overpayment for a 3rd line player at best. Poor asset management.
I think there's a better chance that we won't make the playoffs but yeah, we're still on the bubble.
We don't have any cap space because of bums like Hamrlik and Spacek.
At least Gomez is a proven winner an playoff performer. At least Gionta brings stability and work ethic. What do Hamrlik and Spacek bring to the table?
Hamrlik does alot on the ice you should watch a game once in a while insteed of sportsdesk.Spacek on the other hand has had a terrible season for him...he is usually good for 40 plus points.To his defence though he is playing on the wrong side and has had some injury time this year.
Last edited by HABSINCE76: 02-16-2010 at 01:10 PM.
Reason: sp
Cammy, Markov and Pouliot were not missing. All where there and accounted for and we still got smoked. You are dodging what I've asked you and I'm not surprised.
You're the one who avoided every point I brought up.
What about the Habs being over ,650 in over 26 games with Markov in the lineup when he's not even 100%, when we did have injured players.
When I talked about Cammy, Pouliot, AK and Markov, I was referring to the two games against Philly, they weren't there.
AK wasn't there in January. Pouliot missed a couple of games in January, and Cammy missed a part of January too.
Yet we beat Jersey? Pittsburg? Vancouver? New York? the Caps???
Seems to me that you are the one avoiding reality.
If they can get ,650 with Markov in the lineup while still having injuries, if the team is healthy, their threshold is very high, instead of not using any logic and wanting to use the easy solution, the one that doesn't command ypur brain to work a bit, like when people were calling for Pollack's head, asking for a rebuild, the thing to do is to calm down and realize we're very close to getting where we want to go.
But if you live in a world of premature conclusions, ignorance/avoidance of facts, twisting of reality and simplistic absolutisms, well then yeah, we need a rebuild.
Get over yourself for once. You don't have much left to ramble on, as they will soon prove what I'm saying, as Markov did too.
You're the one who avoided every point I brought up.
What about the Habs being over ,650 in over 26 games with Markov in the lineup when he's not even 100%, when we did have injured players.
For the third time.
We faced the worst teams in the league. We won six out of seven with our only loss coming against a decent team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
When I talked about Cammy, Pouliot, AK and Markov, I was referring to the two games against Philly, they weren't there.
AK wasn't there in January. Pouliot missed a couple of games in January, and Cammy missed a part of January too.
Every team has injuries. Losing a .5 point per game player wouldn't have changed anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Yet we beat Jersey? Pittsburg? Vancouver? New York? the Caps???
Seems to me that you are the one avoiding reality.
The reality is that we got killed in January with a healthy squad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
If they can get ,650 with Markov in the lineup while still having injuries, if the team is healthy, their threshold is very high, instead of not using any logic and wanting to use the easy solution, the one that doesn't command ypur brain to work a bit, like when people were calling for Pollack's head, asking for a rebuild, the thing to do is to calm down and realize we're very close to getting where we want to go.
But if you live in a world of premature conclusions, ignorance/avoidance of facts, twisting of reality and simplistic absolutisms, well then yeah, we need a rebuild.
Get over yourself for once. You don't have much left to ramble on, as they will soon prove what I'm saying, as Markov did too.
We're only close to "where we want to go" if 9th place is what you're looking for.
# Name Height Weight Date Of Birth Age Birth Place
13 Michael Cammalleri ** 5' 9" 182 8 Jun 1982 27 Richmond Hill, ON, CAN - keep
36 Matt D'Agostini 6' 0" 198 23 Oct 1986 23 Sault Ste. Marie, ON, CAN - keep
52 Mathieu Darche 6' 1" 215 26 Nov 1976 33 Montreal, QC, CAN - keep
58 David Desharnais 5' 7" 177 14 Sep 1986 23 Quebec City, QC, CAN - gone
21 Brian Gionta "A" 5' 7" 173 18 Jan 1979 31 Rochester, NY, USA - gone
91 Scott Gomez 5' 11" 202 23 Dec 1979 30 Anchorage, AK, USA - gone
46 Andrei Kostitsyn ** 6' 0" 214 3 Feb 1985 25 Novopolotsk, BLR - gone
74 Sergei Kostitsyn 6' 0" 210 20 Mar 1987 22 Novopolotsk, BLR - gone
40 Maxim Lapierre 6' 2" 207 29 Mar 1985 24 Saint-Léonard, QC, CAN - gone
15 Glen Metropolit 5' 10" 196 25 Jun 1974 35 Toronto, ON, CAN - gone
32 Travis Moen 6' 2" 215 6 Apr 1982 27 Swift Current, SK, CAN - keep
42 Dominic Moore 6' 0" 196 3 Aug 1980 29 Thornhill, ON, CAN - keep
14 Tomas Plekanec 5' 11" 198 31 Oct 1982 27 Kladno, CZE - gone
57 Benoit Pouliot ** 6' 3" 199 29 Sep 1986 23 Alfred, ON, CAN - keep
94 Tom Pyatt 5' 11" 187 14 Feb 1987 23 Thunder Bay, ON, CAN - gone
Defencemen# Name Height Weight Date Of Birth Age Birth Place
47 Marc-Andre Bergeron 5' 9" 198 13 Oct 1980 29 Trois-Rivières, QC, CAN - gone
75 Hal Gill "A" 6' 7" 241 6 Apr 1975 34 Concord, MA, USA - keep
26 Josh Gorges 6' 1" 200 14 Aug 1984 25 Kelowna, BC, CAN - keep
44 Roman Hamrlik 6' 2" 207 12 Apr 1974 35 Zlin, CZE - gone
22 Paul Mara 6' 4" 207 7 Sep 1979 30 Ridgewood, NJ, USA - gone
79 Andrei Markov "A" 6' 0" 207 20 Dec 1978 31 Voskresensk, RUS - keep
20 Ryan O'Byrne 6' 5" 234 19 Jul 1984 25 Victoria, BC, CAN - keep
6 Jaroslav Spacek 6' 0" 210 11 Feb 1974 36 Rokycany, CZE - gone
76 PK Subban 6' 0" 206 13 May 1989 20 Toronto, ON, CAN - keep
Goalies# Name Height Weight Date Of Birth Age Birth Place
41 Jaroslav Halak 5' 11" 179 13 May 1985 24 Bratislava, SVK - gone
31 Carey Price 6' 3" 219 16 Aug 1987 22 Anahim Lake, BC, CAN - keep
clean house keep the few, trade the rest for either picks or superstars.
i'm sure people will not agree, but i don't really care. it's time for a clean slate.
I'm not saying I'd do that deal as proposed but I certainly agree Berglund is worth looking at.
Good size and potential, not much production his sophomore year. I'd sure test the Blues with an offer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playmaker09
Cammalleri, Price/Halak (whoever they want), Pacioretty, Spacek
for
Backes, Berglund, Pietrangelo
Get an elite prospect, a big winger and a big centre. Basically all our needs. Losing Cammalleri hurts but Backes scored 30+ goals last year and plays physical. Not sure if STL wants to give up on that much youth though. And we still get to keep our first round pick, while saving tons of cap space.
lets be honest a core of Gomez , Gionta , and Cammaleri ain't gonna take you to the promise land . to much money wrapped up against those three even if u take spacek and hammer out . Gainey had a clean slate to change this team around to get bigger stronger . and now were in cap troubles and on route to 5 years of Houle era all over again!
lets be honest a core of Gomez , Gionta , and Cammaleri ain't gonna take you to the promise land . to much money wrapped up against those three even if u take spacek and hammer out . Gainey had a clean slate to change this team around to get bigger stronger . and now were in cap troubles and on route to 5 years of Houle era all over again!
Maybe if that core includes Markov, Price(in his prime playing up to potential) plus maybe Pouliot and AK as 30 goal scoers could.
Exactly what options did Gainey have to get bigger and stronger through UFA? He tried to add Lecavalier instead of Gomez but that fell through due to the TB owenship cluster****. There were no Ovechkins, Malkins or Staals on the UFA market.
Maybe if that core includes Markov, Price(in his prime playing up to potential) plus maybe Pouliot and AK as 30 goal scoers could.
Exactly what options did Gainey have to get bigger and stronger through UFA? He tried to add Lecavalier instead of Gomez but that fell through due to the TB owenship cluster****. There were no Ovechkins, Malkins or Staals on the UFA market.
If the options to build the team you want to build aren't there what do you do :
1) Throw money at whatever is available anyway just because the money is there and available
2) Patiently wait until the right players are available and not waste your cap space long term on players that won't cut it
If the options to build the team you want to build aren't there what do you do :
1) Throw money at whatever is available anyway just because the money is there and available
2) Patiently wait until the right players are available and not waste your cap space long term on players that won't cut it
I know what I'd pick.
He kept cap space for Vinnie but he just signed an extension a year before. The year before he even traded for Sundin's rights with no luck. Option 2 is not as easy as you make it sound. The group of UFA's he brought in are a lot better than the ones he let go.
The team is not perfect, but it would look a whole lot better if we had a normal amount of injuries and had 6-10 more points in the standings. Except for Washington, the rest of the east would be within 3-5 points of us if we had 6-7 more points in the standings.
He kept cap space for Vinnie but he just signed an extension a year before. The year before he even traded for Sundin's rights with no luck. Option 2 is not as easy as you make it sound. The group of UFA's he brought in are a lot better than the ones he let go.
The team is not perfect, but it would look a whole lot better if we had a normal amount of injuries and had 6-10 more points in the standings. Except for Washington, the rest of the east would be within 3-5 points of us if we had 6-7 more points in the standings.
Will have to disagree here. THE UFA's he brought in are marginally better at best, aside from Cammy, every other move was bad.
The Gomez deal one of the dumbest moves in recent memory, by any team. Spacek, bad move. Gio way over paid. I actually don't mind Gill, but all in all he made moves for the sake of making moves and moved the team sideways. We are strapped financially and haven't really improved anything.
I do think the the Pouliot trade may make up for some of those poor decisions made last offseason.
If the options to build the team you want to build aren't there what do you do :
1) Throw money at whatever is available anyway just because the money is there and available
2) Patiently wait until the right players are available and not waste your cap space long term on players that won't cut it
I know what I'd pick.
totally agree with you
if the players ain't there why settle for guys you really dont want anyway.
Will have to disagree here. THE UFA's he brought in are marginally better at best, aside from Cammy, every other move was bad.
The Gomez deal one of the dumbest moves in recent memory, by any team. Spacek, bad move. Gio way over paid. I actually don't mind Gill, but all in all he made moves for the sake of making moves and moved the team sideways. We are strapped financially and haven't really improved anything.
I do think the the Pouliot trade may make up for some of those poor decisions made last offseason.
If you don't think Gomez Cammy Gionta Spacek Gill Moen are more than a sideays move to Komisarek Koivu Kovalev Tanguay Bouillon Dandenault etc I don't think you are living in reality.
The Lats-Pouliot trade is hurting Gainey's track record a lot more than helping.
If you don't think Gomez Cammy Gionta Spacek Gill Moen are more than a sideays move to Komisarek Koivu Kovalev Tanguay Bouillon Dandenault etc I don't think you are living in reality.
The Lats-Pouliot trade is hurting Gainey's track record a lot more than helping.
i never said koivu, kovalev are much better am glad they left honestly i rather have nobody and build from the draft because the players we have now lets be honest were not going to win a stanley cup
i never said koivu, kovalev are much better am glad they left honestly i rather have nobody and build from the draft because the players we have now lets be honest were not going to win a stanley cup
UFA's don't prevent you from "building from the draft". At least they help you NOT rush your best prospects. I'd rather sign a few UFA's than rush players like what they did to Pacioretty and Price(not rush him to the NHL, but gave him the #1 job).
# Name Height Weight Date Of Birth Age Birth Place
13 Michael Cammalleri ** 5' 9" 182 8 Jun 1982 27 Richmond Hill, ON, CAN - keep
36 Matt D'Agostini 6' 0" 198 23 Oct 1986 23 Sault Ste. Marie, ON, CAN - keep
52 Mathieu Darche 6' 1" 215 26 Nov 1976 33 Montreal, QC, CAN - keep
58 David Desharnais 5' 7" 177 14 Sep 1986 23 Quebec City, QC, CAN - gone
21 Brian Gionta "A" 5' 7" 173 18 Jan 1979 31 Rochester, NY, USA - gone
91 Scott Gomez 5' 11" 202 23 Dec 1979 30 Anchorage, AK, USA - gone
46 Andrei Kostitsyn ** 6' 0" 214 3 Feb 1985 25 Novopolotsk, BLR - gone
74 Sergei Kostitsyn 6' 0" 210 20 Mar 1987 22 Novopolotsk, BLR - gone
40 Maxim Lapierre 6' 2" 207 29 Mar 1985 24 Saint-Léonard, QC, CAN - gone
15 Glen Metropolit 5' 10" 196 25 Jun 1974 35 Toronto, ON, CAN - gone
32 Travis Moen 6' 2" 215 6 Apr 1982 27 Swift Current, SK, CAN - keep
42 Dominic Moore 6' 0" 196 3 Aug 1980 29 Thornhill, ON, CAN - keep
14 Tomas Plekanec 5' 11" 198 31 Oct 1982 27 Kladno, CZE - gone
57 Benoit Pouliot ** 6' 3" 199 29 Sep 1986 23 Alfred, ON, CAN - keep
94 Tom Pyatt 5' 11" 187 14 Feb 1987 23 Thunder Bay, ON, CAN - gone
Defencemen# Name Height Weight Date Of Birth Age Birth Place
47 Marc-Andre Bergeron 5' 9" 198 13 Oct 1980 29 Trois-Rivières, QC, CAN - gone
75 Hal Gill "A" 6' 7" 241 6 Apr 1975 34 Concord, MA, USA - keep
26 Josh Gorges 6' 1" 200 14 Aug 1984 25 Kelowna, BC, CAN - keep
44 Roman Hamrlik 6' 2" 207 12 Apr 1974 35 Zlin, CZE - gone
22 Paul Mara 6' 4" 207 7 Sep 1979 30 Ridgewood, NJ, USA - gone
79 Andrei Markov "A" 6' 0" 207 20 Dec 1978 31 Voskresensk, RUS - keep
20 Ryan O'Byrne 6' 5" 234 19 Jul 1984 25 Victoria, BC, CAN - keep
6 Jaroslav Spacek 6' 0" 210 11 Feb 1974 36 Rokycany, CZE - gone
76 PK Subban 6' 0" 206 13 May 1989 20 Toronto, ON, CAN - keep
Goalies# Name Height Weight Date Of Birth Age Birth Place
41 Jaroslav Halak 5' 11" 179 13 May 1985 24 Bratislava, SVK - gone
31 Carey Price 6' 3" 219 16 Aug 1987 22 Anahim Lake, BC, CAN - keep
clean house keep the few, trade the rest for either picks or superstars.
i'm sure people will not agree, but i don't really care. it's time for a clean slate.
Cool, we'll end up with 20 3rd round picks, no superstars and half our AHL roster on the team.
UFA's don't prevent you from "building from the draft". At least they help you NOT rush your best prospects. I'd rather sign a few UFA's than rush players like what they did to Pacioretty and Price(not rush him to the NHL, but gave him the #1 job).
we "rushed" price by trading away Huet for a 2nd round pick... since Gainey was so confident that the team DIDN'T need a veteran around to help alleviate the pressure.
and Pacioretty wasn't exactly spared being rushed into the NHL by UFA's signings or adding vets... in the last 2 offseasons, we added Tanguay/Lang/Laraque/Metropolit one year, and then Gomez/Cammalleri/Gionta/Moen the next...
obviously signing UFA's or trading for vets doesn't really help you "not rush your best prospects", does it...?
Trade Carey Price, I really like Carey but I dont think he does well under the Canadiens atmosphere and will prosper somewhere else. Jaroslav Halak has repeadidly shown he deserves the #1 spot and Montreal can benefit more if they trade Price (value wise)
Defence
Trade away all the big slow and old defence. Get rid of all the older guys and make this a young mans team and build an identity on it
Forwards
Again, trade away all the older guys for PICKS .... build from the draft and young guys. Keep guys like Cammelleri though. Build it around Cammelleri and Subban and Halak.
Price need to be moved and will prosper somewhere else.
Please!!!
So... we should trade everything for picks and start over but keep a 24 year old and a 28 year old? Thats your plan?
If you don't think Gomez Cammy Gionta Spacek Gill Moen are more than a sideays move to Komisarek Koivu Kovalev Tanguay Bouillon Dandenault etc I don't think you are living in reality.
The Lats-Pouliot trade is hurting Gainey's track record a lot more than helping.
the "reality" is that up front, it's a marginal upgrade that cost 7.5M$ more against the cap, and defensively it's AT BEST sideways, but factoring in how soft the team is right now, especially on the back end, it's more realistically a downgrade.
and as they say, the results speak for themselves... last year, with a team that was also ravaged by injuries, we squeaked into 8th place... this year that's looking like the best we can "hope" for, but the "reality" is that we are more likely to miss the playoffs...
sideways... no, the roster decisions from last summer were a step in the the wrong direction.
we "rushed" price by trading away Huet for a 2nd round pick... since Gainey was so confident that the team DIDN'T need a veteran around to help alleviate the pressure.
and Pacioretty wasn't exactly spared being rushed into the NHL by UFA's signings or adding vets... in the last 2 offseasons, we added Tanguay/Lang/Laraque/Metropolit one year, and then Gomez/Cammalleri/Gionta/Moen the next...
obviously signing UFA's or trading for vets doesn't really help you "not rush your best prospects", does it...?
Trading Huet was one of Gainey's worst moves.
My point on Pacioretty is that I'd rather they spend 1 mil on a guy close to the end(Lang) or reclamation project than rushing Pacioretty.
all over again! 
