HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Re-build: New Goalie or status-quo?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-14-2010, 02:27 PM
  #26
Rafters
Registered User
 
Rafters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Medicine Hat
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,145
vCash: 500
JDD, DD and Roy all have a chance to be NHL goalies.....not likely to be franchise goalies though.......If the Oilers brass were able to but a better team in front of them it might help...

although I would not be extremely surprised if the Oilers traded Souray or Vish and got back another young high end goalie(Bernier from LA, maybe Scneider from VAN)

Rafters is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 02:35 PM
  #27
Eirhead*
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,992
vCash: 500
I think with goalies, you're better off scouting prospects and young backups. Trying to get a good goalie through draft is such a lottery. Do it through trade. There are always a few teams with 2 goalies who should be starters that they need to move. Just be patient, scout well, and try to pull a Luongo or Kipper-like trade.

Eirhead* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 02:44 PM
  #28
Seedling
Fan level 7?
 
Seedling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,895
vCash: 50
Good question. I would guess it all depends on how Khabbi does now that he has had his surgery. If he can be back to "normal" I'd say we carry on with him and groom the future goalie or look for one while he's still healthy.

Having said that, it's clear that Price/Halak and some other guys may be available this summer, but I'd think they want to take care of the salary issues first and go from there.

I think it's a thing that is dynamic and we really won't know until July 1st what the true intentions are from the Oilers brass.

Seedling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 02:45 PM
  #29
Soli
Moderator
Supervision Required
 
Soli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,341
vCash: 500
I could see a deal like JDD + EDM 2nd 2010 for Halak at the draft. I'd be okay with that.

Soli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 02:48 PM
  #30
Seedling
Fan level 7?
 
Seedling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,895
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli View Post
I could see a deal like JDD + EDM 2nd 2010 for Halak at the draft. I'd be okay with that.
I would be elated!!

Seedling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 03:00 PM
  #31
hossy316
Registered User
 
hossy316's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Kensington, PEI
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,225
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to hossy316
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcoldwell View Post
So you are saying the Jack Campbell who is a franchise goalie is garbage along with the other prospects/young players I mentioned. I am glad you know your hockey.

As for scouting goaltending Kipper isn't available as Calgary has him signed for another 4 years at $5.8M per season. I don't think Edmonton would take that kind of salary on with Khabibulin signed at $3.75M/yr.

I wouldn't call Rinne, Ellis a franchise goalie either. Oh and Carey Price, is overrated and his starting job is being taken over by Halak. So that says something there.

If the Oilers are truly rebuilding, then do it right and don't sign or trade for old goaltenders. Draft and build within. Having Campbell as our future franchise goalie along with another added young top 6 or top pairing defenseman would help tremendously.
1. Compared to a Hall or Seguin, yes those guys are garbage.
2. I said if you scout properly, you can go and get a goalie ala what Calgary did to get Kipper! Traded a draft pick to the Sharks for him as they saw his potential.
3. Price is still very young and down the road will be a very solid goaltender, maybe not franchise, but a legit NHL starter capable of 60 games.
4. And again, you don't pass up a chance to draft a potential superstar to get a goaltender, who may or may not be good. Nobody knows with goaltenders. Dipietro come to mind??

So easy there Milbury. Thanks for your insight though since I don't know my hockey.

hossy316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 03:12 PM
  #32
s7ark
Moderator
TheWorstEver
 
s7ark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcoldwell View Post
What does everyone think of Jack Campbell. He is a top 5 pick in the draft and a franchise goalie in the future. I was thinking that maybe Edmonton trades down to the 3rd/4th spot in the draft to take him. Here are a couple of scenarios that could work and benefit Edmonton.

At the draft Edmonton trades the 1st overall pick for the 4th overall pick.

If the top 4 teams are

Edmonton
Boston (via Toronto)
NY Islanders
Florida Panthers or Carolina

Would it be worth while if Edmonton gets New York's 1st (3rd overall) and select Jack Campbell and also receives Travis Hamonic in return for Edmonton's 1st (Tyler Seguin)

Or trade it to Florida for again Jack Campbell and Dmitri Kulikov or Michael Frolik

Or Carolina for Jack Campbell and Brandon Sutter

I will also add Columbus in on the top 4 and have Jack Campbell and John Moore or Nikita Filatov coming back to Edmonton.

My reason being would be that Edmonton is already set up front with forwards for the future with Gagner, Cogliano, Eberle, MPS, Lander, Rajala, and others. But the Oilers are lacking the big name in future goaltending. I believe Campbell would take care of that problem and the Oilers would also have another piece to add to the prospects depth chart in either of Hamonic, Sutter, Kulikov, Frolik, Moore or Filatov.

I do realize that Hall or Seguin would be 1st overall, but if we get Campbell and another significant piece the Oilers would be better off in the future than with just Hall or Seguin.
Honestly I know you put a lot of time into that, but I hate everything about this idea. We need a franchise forward. Absolutely need one. And they aren't coming via trade or UFA so that leaves the draft. Hall/Seguin is who we have to take.

Goalies are hit and mis, even highly ranked ones. Montoya was the top goalie of his draft year in all the polls and played well in the WJC too. You NEVER take a goalie in the 1st afaic. Not ever. Elite goalies(top 5) come on the trade/UFA market maybe once every 4/5 years, top 10-5 Gs every 2/3 years and top 20-10 guys yearly. Goalies are easy to add via trade and all those previous timeframes are shorter then the average time for a 1st round picked goalie that does reach his potential, to become a true number 1 guy(see Price). Let other teams take the risky top pick goalies and trade for the ones that work out. And in terms of our drafting of Gs(for our system), we are just as likely to find a superstar goalie in the 3-5 as in the 1st, so I say we trade for extra late picks and use those ones on goalies(see Roy).

We should always be using our 1st on skaters. Esp this year with that possible franchise forward within our grasp. Hall/Seguin is the future of this team and I am praying will be my next jersey name. This is an opportunity we just can't pass up and I think the Oilers know that. Either of those kids can be something we can sell the team around both in the city and to prospective free agents. It makes far too much sense for us to just take the big name kid.

s7ark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 03:15 PM
  #33
PKSpecialist
Registered User
 
PKSpecialist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK Dandyman View Post
Interesting observation on Price. I have been trying to figure out what his potential is. With your goalie background, what other established goalie would you compare Price's style to?

Price kind of remind me to Tom Barraso and Darren Puppa type, big, when they on the buttefly they still sit up pretty tall cover the top of the net, but may be kind of slow sometimes to go down (as what you pointed out, may be he doesn't battle. Since by going down quicker and then you have to get up & down more often or move lateral pushing from post to post while down on the butterfly?). Thanks for the insight in advance.
The best comparison I can think of is a left handed Roman Turek. I big guy who struggles with rebounds, doesn't battle and lets in bad goals. He can have good games, but then have really, really bad games. He also seems to struggle in big games(at least in the NHL). Now, Roman Turek actually put up some good stats in his career, but he was never an upper echelon goalie, and probably would be considered a lower end starter or a good backup. Considering the "pedigree" or "resume" that everyone keeps talking about with Price, his asking price will be much higher than where I think he actually will end up.

In a perfect world, if Price was more of a battler, I could see him ending up to be more of an Ed Belfour, but I just don't see that from him.

PKSpecialist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 03:19 PM
  #34
PKSpecialist
Registered User
 
PKSpecialist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hossy316 View Post
1. Compared to a Hall or Seguin, yes those guys are garbage.
2. I said if you scout properly, you can go and get a goalie ala what Calgary did to get Kipper! Traded a draft pick to the Sharks for him as they saw his potential.
3. Price is still very young and down the road will be a very solid goaltender, maybe not franchise, but a legit NHL starter capable of 60 games.
4. And again, you don't pass up a chance to draft a potential superstar to get a goaltender, who may or may not be good. Nobody knows with goaltenders. Dipietro come to mind??

So easy there Milbury. Thanks for your insight though since I don't know my hockey.
Dipietro is a poor comparison, although I get what you are trying to say. Al Montoya would be a better one as another poster mentioned. DiPietro is a fairly good goaltender, just that since he was drafted the injury bug has killed him, and the game changes(trapezoid) have hurt his game some. If he was healthy I would take him on my team any day.

PKSpecialist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 03:30 PM
  #35
s7ark
Moderator
TheWorstEver
 
s7ark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,196
vCash: 500
As for what we should do. It all depends on Khabby's back. If the surgery fixes it and he can play, then great. He was good before he went down and JDD is a very adequate backup who can give you 30 good games. But if the surgery results are iffy, we should nullify the contract before next season while we still can, and chase a UFA goalie(maybe offer Turco a year?) or make a deal for an available guy(Price/Halak)

s7ark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 03:39 PM
  #36
Copperhead
Registered User
 
Copperhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,713
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Honestly I know you put a lot of time into that, but I hate everything about this idea. We need a franchise forward. Absolutely need one. And they aren't coming via trade or UFA so that leaves the draft. Hall/Seguin is who we have to take.

Goalies are hit and mis, even highly ranked ones. Montoya was the top goalie of his draft year in all the polls and played well in the WJC too. You NEVER take a goalie in the 1st afaic. Not ever. Elite goalies(top 5) come on the trade/UFA market maybe once every 4/5 years, top 10-5 Gs every 2/3 years and top 20-10 guys yearly. Goalies are easy to add via trade and all those previous timeframes are shorter then the average time for a 1st round picked goalie that does reach his potential, to become a true number 1 guy(see Price). Let other teams take the risky top pick goalies and trade for the ones that work out. And in terms of our drafting of Gs(for our system), we are just as likely to find a superstar goalie in the 3-5 as in the 1st, so I say we trade for extra late picks and use those ones on goalies(see Roy).
EXACTLY! Even at #1 goalies are much more of a risky draft pick than skaters. They usually take a few years to develop before they make it to the league.

Personally I would much rather develop the Detroit model. They have used average goalies pretty much exclusively over the past 15 years and look how that has worked out. Look how Chicago is doing in front of Niemi and Huet. I don't think anyone here would suggest either of those goalies is a superstar.

If we build a decent team up front and on the backend, all we need is a decent goalie.

Copperhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 03:43 PM
  #37
Copperhead
Registered User
 
Copperhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,713
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
As for what we should do. It all depends on Khabby's back. If the surgery fixes it and he can play, then great. He was good before he went down and JDD is a very adequate backup who can give you 30 good games. But if the surgery results are iffy, we should nullify the contract before next season while we still can, and chase a UFA goalie(maybe offer Turco a year?) or make a deal for an available guy(Price/Halak)
While we still can? How do you figure we can nullify the contract? As far as I am aware a buyout is the only option.

Copperhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 03:46 PM
  #38
Soli
Moderator
Supervision Required
 
Soli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 13,341
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Copperhead View Post
While we still can? How do you figure we can nullify the contract? As far as I am aware a buyout is the only option.
It's not clear, but supposedly there's a Buyer's Remorse clause in the CBA that will allow us to cutbait with Khabby's contract in the 1st year or something like that.

Soli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 03:56 PM
  #39
Perfect_Drug
Registered User
 
Perfect_Drug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,195
vCash: 500
Thread Fail.

Why is the OP giving Burke getting any credit for building from the net out during his time in Vancouver?

He was adamant they kept Dan Cloutier in net. And refused to trade him, despite being absolutely atrocious.

McGillis brought in Luongo for Bertuzzi.



And Edmonton has had 5-All World goalies.
Andy Moog won us a couple of Stanley Cups.
Grant Fuhr is deservedly in the Hall.
Bill Ranford won us a Stanley Cup BY HIMSELF (Well deserved Conn Smyth)
Curtis Joseph, and Tommy Salo were both top 5 goalies in the league, when they played for the Oil.

Carey Price sucks. Another poster mentioned his lack of battle, which is true. You can't teach that.

Perfect_Drug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 04:04 PM
  #40
Loweball
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,932
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
Thread Fail.

Why is the OP giving Burke getting any credit for building from the net out during his time in Vancouver?

He was adamant they kept Dan Cloutier in net. And refused to trade him, despite being absolutely atrocious.

McGillis brought in Luongo for Bertuzzi.



And Edmonton has had 5-All World goalies.
Andy Moog won us a couple of Stanley Cups.
Grant Fuhr is deservedly in the Hall.
Bill Ranford won us a Stanley Cup BY HIMSELF (Well deserved Conn Smyth)
Curtis Joseph, and Tommy Salo were both top 5 goalies in the league, when they played for the Oil.

Carey Price sucks. Another poster mentioned his lack of battle, which is true. You can't teach that.
The OP must be a very very young man. No franchise goalie? Hall of famer Grant Fuhr?
Cujo? Ranford? Geesh. They don't get better than that!

Loweball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 04:07 PM
  #41
dixs35
Registered User
 
dixs35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: E-town
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,458
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli View Post
It's not clear, but supposedly there's a Buyer's Remorse clause in the CBA that will allow us to cutbait with Khabby's contract in the 1st year or something like that.
only if he retires after his first year, because of his age we have to pay him regardless now unless he retires this summer. other than that the oil or on the hook for the full amount, and lets be honest he's not leaving 11million on the table

dixs35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 04:11 PM
  #42
s7ark
Moderator
TheWorstEver
 
s7ark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli View Post
It's not clear, but supposedly there's a Buyer's Remorse clause in the CBA that will allow us to cutbait with Khabby's contract in the 1st year or something like that.
I believe it has something to do with contracts signed for players with pre-existing injuries. During the 1st year of the deal it can be nullified. I don't remember which thread I read this in here(maybe the Khabby done for the year one?) but some intrepid poster linked to the CBA provision that clearly showed we could negate the contract and cap hit during the first year

s7ark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 04:18 PM
  #43
Aaaaaron
Registered User
 
Aaaaaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 979
vCash: 500
Trading Vish+ for Price or Halak would be nice and solve their disappointment with Spacek. It's just too bad MTL has Gomez's contract on the books, hopefully they can get their cap space under control this off-season.

Aaaaaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 04:18 PM
  #44
CupofOil
Visually, we suck.
 
CupofOil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Rock Bottom
Country: United States
Posts: 14,347
vCash: 500
Been saying this for a while.... trade for Halak in the offseason although i think that JDD is better than people give him credit for but if the Habs are indeed still looking to trade Halak (not a definite considering how he has severely outplayed Price) the Oilers have to make a play for him and for people think that we should give up Visnovsky for him, that's too much, he could be had for less than that.... O'Sullivan or Cogliano and a 2011 2nd rounder?

CupofOil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 04:29 PM
  #45
Copperhead
Registered User
 
Copperhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,713
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli View Post
It's not clear, but supposedly there's a Buyer's Remorse clause in the CBA that will allow us to cutbait with Khabby's contract in the 1st year or something like that.
Does that mean we can do something with Horcoff's contract too? Cause that would be legen...wait for it....DARY!

Interesting about the pre-existing injury clause though. I'd hate for someone's career to end before they want to but I won't lie that would save us cap-wise.

Copperhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 04:53 PM
  #46
nexttothemoon
The Drive for Nine
 
nexttothemoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,588
vCash: 500
Just to take some misdirected heat off the OP... I'm the one who said that the Oilers have arguably never had a franchise goaler... not the OP. I'm probably wrong in retrospect... it's not only guys like Roy/Brodeur/Hasek that are franchise level goalies... Moog/Fuhr/Ranford/Cujo/Salo/Roloson were arguably close to that level as well.

I agree though that getting a young potentially "great" goaler through a trade of one of the Oilers vets would be preferable to drafting one.

nexttothemoon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 05:20 PM
  #47
nvan97
Registered User
 
nvan97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,515
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
First off... that's a common way of referring to the team when you're a fan of a team... "we could use a better goalie"... "we played crap in January" etc.

Do you play for the Oilers and do they need you? Didn't think so bud. We are in the same boat dude and we can both spout crap and opinions all we want on a forum... I think that's what these are for... or are they your personal domain where you can pick apart people's grammar? Maybe you should go to Uni and teach English if you want to do that.

I said arguably we have never had a young franchise goaltender. Yes Fuhr was probably a franchise type goaler. I said arguably... so if some say he was then that's their opinion. Of course any goalie in the days of Gretzky,Kurri and the rest of that 5.5 goals per game bunch could let in 5 goals a game and still pile up the wins with that offense in front of them.

Cujo I would say was a good goaler but we didn't exactly get him when he was young and we generally are talking in this thread about young prospect franchise goalers... not already established 30+ year olds.
Just because something is common doesn't mean it's right. Irregardless, and orientate are perfect examples of our culture's bastardization of the English language. There is no "we" when referencing a team that you do not play for. I've never claimed I play for the Oilers nor do they need me to succeed which is exactly why I would never reference them as "we."

Curtis Joseph played for the Oilers when he was 28 years old which is often the peak age for a goaltender.

nvan97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 05:45 PM
  #48
Asher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli View Post
I could see a deal like JDD + EDM 2nd 2010 for Halak at the draft. I'd be okay with that.
And my prediction is nothing + nothing for nothing.

I'll be shocked if Kabby isn't the starter next year. The best we can hope for IMO is they sign a cheapy backup for 1M like did with Garon and he plays surprisingly well or that JDD takes a big step forward next year. Otherwise, I expect more of what we're seeing now next year.

There are teams that identify goaltending as a problem and trade for a Halak and there are teams that identify goaltending as a problem and then sign a 36 year old, injury prone goalie to a 4 year, bloated contract. Guess which kind the Oilers are.

Asher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 05:47 PM
  #49
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,859
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcoldwell View Post
What does everyone think of Jack Campbell. He is a top 5 pick in the draft and a franchise goalie in the future. I was thinking that maybe Edmonton trades down to the 3rd/4th spot in the draft to take him. Here are a couple of scenarios that could work and benefit Edmonton.

At the draft Edmonton trades the 1st overall pick for the 4th overall pick.

If the top 4 teams are

Edmonton
Boston (via Toronto)
NY Islanders
Florida Panthers or Carolina

Would it be worth while if Edmonton gets New York's 1st (3rd overall) and select Jack Campbell and also receives Travis Hamonic in return for Edmonton's 1st (Tyler Seguin)

Or trade it to Florida for again Jack Campbell and Dmitri Kulikov or Michael Frolik

Or Carolina for Jack Campbell and Brandon Sutter

I will also add Columbus in on the top 4 and have Jack Campbell and John Moore or Nikita Filatov coming back to Edmonton.

My reason being would be that Edmonton is already set up front with forwards for the future with Gagner, Cogliano, Eberle, MPS, Lander, Rajala, and others. But the Oilers are lacking the big name in future goaltending. I believe Campbell would take care of that problem and the Oilers would also have another piece to add to the prospects depth chart in either of Hamonic, Sutter, Kulikov, Frolik, Moore or Filatov.

I do realize that Hall or Seguin would be 1st overall, but if we get Campbell and another significant piece the Oilers would be better off in the future than with just Hall or Seguin.
There is no chance I would trade out of the top three this year to draft a goalie. Guys like Seguin and Hall are nearly sure things. They may not be franchise type players but the chances they will be impact players is very high. Goalies on the other hand are notoriously difficult to judge.

Fourier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2010, 05:49 PM
  #50
Asher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli View Post
It's not clear, but supposedly there's a Buyer's Remorse clause in the CBA that will allow us to cutbait with Khabby's contract in the 1st year or something like that.
The only loop hole I've heard of (from Gregor) says that if the player decides to retire after the first year of his contract then the team is off the hook. I don't know of any clause that allows the team, itself, to get themselves off the hook.

Asher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:17 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.