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Re-build: New Goalie or status-quo?

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Old
02-14-2010, 06:04 PM
  #51
TkachevYak2Slepy
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No it wouldnt because hed be picked up off waivers
becoming UFA not RFA ; and not waivers

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02-14-2010, 06:18 PM
  #52
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The best comparison I can think of is a left handed Roman Turek. I big guy who struggles with rebounds, doesn't battle and lets in bad goals. He can have good games, but then have really, really bad games. He also seems to struggle in big games(at least in the NHL). Now, Roman Turek actually put up some good stats in his career, but he was never an upper echelon goalie, and probably would be considered a lower end starter or a good backup. Considering the "pedigree" or "resume" that everyone keeps talking about with Price, his asking price will be much higher than where I think he actually will end up.

In a perfect world, if Price was more of a battler, I could see him ending up to be more of an Ed Belfour, but I just don't see that from him.
The Habs certainly hope Price is not Roman Turek.

I also remember watching Turek and agreed with you his inconsistency. Some games, he just looked so awkward when he went down on his knees, his timing would be all off and rebounds are everywhere around the front of his goal and in the slot.

I do think Price is smoother, another guy came to mind in comparison of Price's playing style for me is Jim Carey. Which they both seems to be smooth and in good position but just seems to miss the save by an inch.

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02-14-2010, 06:19 PM
  #53
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That's if nobody picks him off waivers.
You will have to explain this one as ELLIS is soon becoming UFA

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02-14-2010, 07:03 PM
  #54
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Just because something is common doesn't mean it's right. Irregardless, and orientate are perfect examples of our culture's bastardization of the English language. There is no "we" when referencing a team that you do not play for. I've never claimed I play for the Oilers nor do they need me to succeed which is exactly why I would never reference them as "we."
Well I think you are looking at something to complain about (maybe you are bored... haven't gotten any lately etc ) and picked my post out of literally hundreds of threads where people use... "we need a goalie"... "I wouldn't have traded our best prospect for an oft injured 35 year old" etc. Again you might want to get a job as an educator or newspaper editor if you really love picking on grammar and word usage of others. That would pay much better than correcting the forum posts of dumb ***** like me that will never learn and won't ever change their ways to suit forum grammar nazis.

I hope we do better next year and I hope we draft Hall/Seguin and I hope the team I help pay the wages for will get back to the playoffs in the next few years.

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02-14-2010, 07:07 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by PKSpecialist View Post
By watching hockey. Price doesn't battle. The best goalies do. You have to fight to see through traffic, you have to make the second effort, the third effort and the fourth effort. I grew up playing goal, and still do. I watch goalies all the time. Carey Price doesn't have the intangibles needed to succeed as a great starting goaltender. Neither does JDD. They will both be OK in the NHL, but there is no point in trading for Price when we have the equivalent here now.
weak answer. don't expect to get very far past high school with that kind of reasoning.

It makes no sense to me to say that JDD is, or will be, as good as a goaltender who has put up superior numbers at every level, and won the WJC MVP, the Calder Cup, Calder Cup MVP, CHL goaltender of the year - despite his supposed lack of 'intangibles'.

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Old
02-14-2010, 07:16 PM
  #56
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Dubnyk for Mike Smith, Take 3 goalies into pre-season. Play Deslauriers and Mike Smith. See whos better. Waive the lesser goaltender at the end of camp. Go in with Khabibulin as the starter.

That's about all I've got.
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Originally Posted by PKSpecialist View Post
By watching hockey. Price doesn't battle. The best goalies do. You have to fight to see through traffic, you have to make the second effort, the third effort and the fourth effort. I grew up playing goal, and still do. I watch goalies all the time. Carey Price doesn't have the intangibles needed to succeed as a great starting goaltender. Neither does JDD. They will both be OK in the NHL, but there is no point in trading for Price when we have the equivalent here now.
I 100% agree with this but I don't know how you can say JDD doesn't battle. That's all the kid does. Are you sure you don't mean DD? I just can't agree with that. I love Deslauriers battle level.

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Old
02-14-2010, 08:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by PKSpecialist View Post
I really worry about people who want Carey Price here. They obviously don't know goaltending. JDD is going to be as good as Price and right now he has the same problem that Price has had throughout his NHL career. He lets in really bad goals at really inopportune times. I am definitely not sold on Devan Dubnyk, but I like what JDD brings to the table. Hopefully Khabibulin can come in next year and bring his game back to the same level, but if not, we will get another high pick next year, and then we can hope that Olivier Roy or some other free agent goalie can come in and be a top goaltender. I don't see Khabibulin playing anymore than one more year in the NHL. He probably retires from hockey altogether or ends up in the KHL(this is pure speculation on my part)
Do I have to bring up, again, how Price has never, even once in his entire career, put up worse than a .900 save percentage? Or how he's never, even once, had a GAA over 3.00? JDD has fallen short on both counts multiple times.

You can believe what you want about Price being a franchise goalie. But there's no way JDD has the potential Price has. JDD could become a better goalie, sure, but to say he has more potential is foolish. Price has consistently put up better numbers than JDD over their entire careers, and he's 3 years younger. Price has also been the starting goaltender for the Canadiens in the playoffs for 2 years in a row. He's proven he can play in pressure situations.

Price has more potential than JDD at this moment in time, plain and simple.

-JH.

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02-14-2010, 09:19 PM
  #58
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becoming UFA not RFA ; and not waivers
Doesnt matter, hes still waiver eligible

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Old
02-14-2010, 09:31 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
Thread Fail.

Why is the OP giving Burke getting any credit for building from the net out during his time in Vancouver?

He was adamant they kept Dan Cloutier in net. And refused to trade him, despite being absolutely atrocious.

McGillis brought in Luongo for Bertuzzi.


The Canucks have never had a "McGillis". It was Dave Nonis who traded for Luongo. Mike Gillis, who you probably meant, is the current GM.

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Old
02-15-2010, 02:48 AM
  #60
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I 100% agree with this but I don't know how you can say JDD doesn't battle. That's all the kid does. Are you sure you don't mean DD? I just can't agree with that. I love Deslauriers battle level.

Now that I reread that post, you are absolutely right. I should rephrase it. Deslauriers doesn't have the skill to be an upper echelon starter, he tops out where Price does IMO, but yes, Deslauriers does battle. (Dubnyk on the other hand needs a lot of work in that area which is why this poster for one is about as high on him as he is on Carey Price)

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02-15-2010, 03:01 AM
  #61
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Do I have to bring up, again, how Price has never, even once in his entire career, put up worse than a .900 save percentage? Or how he's never, even once, had a GAA over 3.00? JDD has fallen short on both counts multiple times.

You can believe what you want about Price being a franchise goalie. But there's no way JDD has the potential Price has. JDD could become a better goalie, sure, but to say he has more potential is foolish. Price has consistently put up better numbers than JDD over their entire careers, and he's 3 years younger. Price has also been the starting goaltender for the Canadiens in the playoffs for 2 years in a row. He's proven he can play in pressure situations.

Price has more potential than JDD at this moment in time, plain and simple.

-JH.
WOW! You must be a baseball fan first, then a hockey fan to start quoting stats to me. First and foremost if you had read my post you would notice that I didn't say that Carey Price didn't have potential, just that I think he tops out as Roman Turek. If he was a battler he'd be an Ed Belfour.(but he's not). I watch the games, and not just Oiler games, and not just NHL games. I watch all kinds of hockey. Grant Fuhr had two NHL season with a save percentage over .900 and he is a hall of famer. Stats mean s*** to me. I watch the games and then form my opinion.

I agree, Price has more potential than JDD, but without the battle, he will never reach that potential, and will top out in the same viscinity as JDD. You want a good young goalie in the NHL? Try Josh Harding. You may not find a guy with the pedigree and battle that he has. Guy was lights out with the Regina Pats, and has taken his game to the next level with the Wild.

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Old
02-15-2010, 03:06 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by PKSpecialist View Post
Now that I reread that post, you are absolutely right. I should rephrase it. Deslauriers doesn't have the skill to be an upper echelon starter, he tops out where Price does IMO, but yes, Deslauriers does battle. (Dubnyk on the other hand needs a lot of work in that area which is why this poster for one is about as high on him as he is on Carey Price)
How many games have we seen Dubnyk play, 9? Is it really fair to judge him yet? I mean, as far as I'm concerned, JDD only started battling something like 10 games ago. Until that point, it looked to me like JDD was simply an average goalie with below average positioning who gave up a rebound on 90% of the shots he managed to save. But, in this last stretch here, he's turned his game around completely.

Dubnyk doesn't deserve that same chance? Why were people willing to wait until JDD was 26 years old to judge him, but Dubnyk is already a bust at 22?

-JH.

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Old
02-15-2010, 03:28 AM
  #63
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How many games have we seen Dubnyk play, 9? Is it really fair to judge him yet? I mean, as far as I'm concerned, JDD only started battling something like 10 games ago. Until that point, it looked to me like JDD was simply an average goalie with below average positioning who gave up a rebound on 90% of the shots he managed to save. But, in this last stretch here, he's turned his game around completely.

Dubnyk doesn't deserve that same chance? Why were people willing to wait until JDD was 26 years old to judge him, but Dubnyk is already a bust at 22?

-JH.
Agreed. I really like what JDD has shown of late, and I think that he is demonstrating that he can compete at this level, but I also think that in the near future DD proves the same ability and eventually becomes the better goaltender of the two.

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Old
02-15-2010, 03:33 AM
  #64
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If Price is available at the draft/July 1st sure I would obviously inquire about it. I would be willing to maybe go as far as Penner + Cogs for Price, but not much higher than that, and to be honest, I don't believe they will get an offer much better than that if they do put him on the market. People overestimate every deal on this board (Heatley, Kovalchuk, Phaneuf, etc. never could have been dealt for the packages they actually got in HFB land).

But we may just have to hope Khabby has 45-50 games in the tank for next year and one of Dubi or JDD can develop underneath him as a no.2.

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02-15-2010, 03:58 AM
  #65
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Why don't we keep Khabby, and let him get injurred by Game 20, so we can roll with JDD/DD again.

Another #1 overall wouldn't hurt this rebuild one bit.


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Old
02-15-2010, 09:38 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by John Hancock View Post
How many games have we seen Dubnyk play, 9? Is it really fair to judge him yet? I mean, as far as I'm concerned, JDD only started battling something like 10 games ago. Until that point, it looked to me like JDD was simply an average goalie with below average positioning who gave up a rebound on 90% of the shots he managed to save. But, in this last stretch here, he's turned his game around completely.

Dubnyk doesn't deserve that same chance? Why were people willing to wait until JDD was 26 years old to judge him, but Dubnyk is already a bust at 22?

-JH.
I guess with Dubnyk its a little different for me because I got to see him a lot in junior. Wasn't a real big fan of him then either. He battled consistency even back then. From what I have seen of him with the Oil, he hasn't changed his game at all. Still the same old JS-Giguere type goalie who blocks shots rather than saving them, and who seems very stiff in his movements.

(Thanks to whomever started this thread. I love talking goaltending)

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Old
02-15-2010, 10:14 AM
  #67
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We're stuck with Khabibulin for the next 3 years, so he's a part of this rebuild whether we like it or not. We can't replace him unless the replacement not only comes cheap, but stays cheap for the next 3 years.

You can usually get a goalie in free agency or via trade, so there's really no reason to be wasting a 1st round pick on one. Especially not at the expense of Hall or Seguin (in regard to the trade back suggestion made earlier). Plus, it's hard to argue what Ken Holland has said on the topic in the past that unless you're getting one of the top 5 guys, there's no reason to pay top dollar because the difference in performance between the 8th-9th goalie and the 15th-16th isn't much, but the difference in cost is.

In general, I don't believe in building from the net out. I'd go from the defense out, and when you've already got a good team you should be able to get a capable goalie to play behind them.

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02-15-2010, 10:25 AM
  #68
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Don't know if any of you got to go to any of the World Junior games, but Benjamin Conz was lights out at those games and is already playing against men in Switzerland. In chatting with Pierre McGuire at the games he basically said that Conz is pretty solid in his own league, and he showed that he could be brilliant with his play in the WJC's. I have seen him rated all over the place, even as low as fifth European goalie, but I would use a third round pick on this guy in a heartbeat. He is likely only a couple of years away from the NHL.

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02-15-2010, 11:44 AM
  #69
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We're stuck with Khabibulin for the next 3 years, so he's a part of this rebuild whether we like it or not. We can't replace him unless the replacement not only comes cheap, but stays cheap for the next 3 years.

You can usually get a goalie in free agency or via trade, so there's really no reason to be wasting a 1st round pick on one. Especially not at the expense of Hall or Seguin (in regard to the trade back suggestion made earlier). Plus, it's hard to argue what Ken Holland has said on the topic in the past that unless you're getting one of the top 5 guys, there's no reason to pay top dollar because the difference in performance between the 8th-9th goalie and the 15th-16th isn't much, but the difference in cost is.

In general, I don't believe in building from the net out. I'd go from the defense out, and when you've already got a good team you should be able to get a capable goalie to play behind them.
Easy for Holland to say when he has Lidstrom patrolling the ice for almost half the game.

I actually do believe that goaltending should be the #1 priority, especially for a young team. The kids need to know that every time they screw up defensively the puck is not going to end up in the back of their net. Having strong goaltending makes the other players better IMO, and certainly allows them to play with more confidence.

My biggest beef with Lowe over the years was that he never recognized this. Sather most certainly did - no matter how bad the team was, they were always solid in net with the likes of Ranford, Joseph, or Salo. Then Lowe came in and then we saw the disaster of the 3 headed monster. At least Roli finally provided some stability, but at 37 years old it was obvious this was yet another band-aid solution by KLowe.

Tambo actually got my hopes up last year when he said publicly that fixing the situation in net was his #1 priority. And then I came home on July 1st to find out his idea of an upgrade was to give over-the-hill Khabby a 4 year dear... Holy ****!

I've literally been *****ing about this problem since '01 and in that time management has done nothing to address the long term needs of this team in goal. Nothing at all in 9 years!

I rarely use words like "guarantee," but I can guarantee that if I were the GM, Halak would be the starter for the Oilers next season. Why? Because: a) Halak and Price are both RFA's and it looks like MTL is going to deal one of them and, b) because I'm willing to overpay to get the deal done

Pay a little extra now, set yourself up in goal for the next 10 years. Where do I sign up?

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02-15-2010, 12:18 PM
  #70
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Just because something is common doesn't mean it's right. Irregardless, and orientate are perfect examples of our culture's bastardization of the English language. There is no "we" when referencing a team that you do not play for. I've never claimed I play for the Oilers nor do they need me to succeed which is exactly why I would never reference them as "we."

Curtis Joseph played for the Oilers when he was 28 years old which is often the peak age for a goaltender.
Get off your high horse.

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02-15-2010, 12:27 PM
  #71
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Taken from the Alex Plante thread.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...7&postcount=15


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1st D-man to record an assist in his first game.
SENTENCE FRAGMENT!

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02-15-2010, 12:33 PM
  #72
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It's easy for Holland to say because he's a smart hockey man who's been able to build a competative team and keep it competative after the lockout despite having to cut the salaries in half.

Goaltending is important, but not as important as having a good team playing in front of them. Just take a look at the standings. You'll see a lot more bad teams with good goaltending out of the playoffs than good ones with average goaltending. Look at Florida. They've had a top 5 goalie palying for them in each of the last 10 years and didn't make the playoffs once over that span.

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02-15-2010, 12:57 PM
  #73
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Don't know if any of you got to go to any of the World Junior games, but Benjamin Conz was lights out at those games and is already playing against men in Switzerland. In chatting with Pierre McGuire at the games he basically said that Conz is pretty solid in his own league, and he showed that he could be brilliant with his play in the WJC's. I have seen him rated all over the place, even as low as fifth European goalie, but I would use a third round pick on this guy in a heartbeat. He is likely only a couple of years away from the NHL.
Definetly who I would pick if we got a chance in the 3rd round, hes amazing

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02-15-2010, 01:24 PM
  #74
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Why don't we keep Khabby, and let him get injurred by Game 20, so we can roll with JDD/DD again.

Another #1 overall wouldn't hurt this rebuild one bit.

Exactly!
I do think that JDD can be a good goalie in the future in the NHL. As others have pointed out, his "battle" has gotten much better, and I really like his fundamentals. Let's not forget how many NHL games he has actually played as well. I know he is 26, but has had next to no time in the NHL. In 2/3 years when this team is ready to compete again, I wouldn't mind having him be are starter if he continues to develop. I really don't see the point of adding a new goalie this offseason when we are going to be no where near ready to compete next season. Let Khabbi and JDD run with it and see how JDD develops. Even then, that would be JDD's second full year in the NHL, so if he doesn't play "great", are we willing to give up on him already? Let JDD go through some growing pains with some of the youngsters and see where they all come out.
As for Edmonton having previous elite goalies, I don't believe we have ever had a top 3. Yes, Cujo was close, Rolosson and Ranford looked like it for a playoff run, and Moog and Fuhr managed to keep enough pucks out of the net for the offense to outscore the opponents. But as Ferraro pointed out, Washington is starting to look like the Oilers of the 80's, and are winning a lot of games, but I wouldn't consider any of their goalies elite, even though they are winning games. Osgood was never elite on Detroit, even with the Cup wins.

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02-15-2010, 01:50 PM
  #75
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The OP must be a very very young man. No franchise goalie? Hall of famer Grant Fuhr?
Cujo? Ranford? Geesh. They don't get better than that!
I think Jacques Plante was better. You have to be old to remember him playing for the Oilers though

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