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Habs will be buyer at trade deadline and will finish 9th...

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Old
02-15-2010, 12:24 PM
  #51
Frozenice
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It would make sense for Montreal to trade him and get some young players in exchange for him. Someone like L.A. Kings would be a good fit.

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02-15-2010, 12:24 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
This teams been bad for a while - what's there to be positive about? The fact that we sellout every game?
Or maybe the fact that we're in playoff position with a depleted lineup. Things can only be better and if we look at what better means its 7-6-5-4-3-2-1.

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02-15-2010, 12:27 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Tortue View Post
Or maybe the fact that we're in playoff position with a depleted lineup. Things can only be better and if we look at what better means its 7-6-5-4-3-2-1.
It's this attitude that keeps us mediocre. Keep the fans coming - that's all that matters.

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Old
02-15-2010, 12:29 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
This teams been bad for a while - what's there to be positive about? The fact that we sellout every game?
The team has built a very good core, have a good cupboard of youngsters for the future, have great goaltending depth, have managed to battle for a playoff spot even with many key players going down for long periods of time, have shown heart and come to the defense of their teamates, have passionate fans who yes, buy tickets and sellout every game because they support their team!


Going forward, management needs to "RE-TOOL" not rebuild. We have some really great pieces, and now need to use some of the assets we've built up to complete this team. ie: top 4 puck-moving dman, bottom 6 gritty tough forwards. A healthy top 6 and the changes I mentioned above would allow us to be competitive with just about any other team in the conference. The caps are the best team in the league, and yet our record against them is 2-1-1..Look, another positive!


This team has been UNHEALTHY for awhile...The only season we virtually had no injuries, we finished 1st!

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02-15-2010, 12:30 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
This teams been bad for a while - what's there to be positive about? The fact that we sellout every game?
Come on!!!! That's just another example of being negative.

People are so impatient, please give them a chance, we have a group of players who are happy to play in MTL (Markov, Cam, Gill and more) and we ***** at them at the first possible reason.

They want to win much more then all of us. That is why I like this team, the major part of them are winners at heart. Just look at Gionta when they ask him if it was because so much player on the was injured they lost against Philly and he said NO because we won against WSH with the same players....wow that his a winner by heart.

I understand that people come here because they use this board has a therapy center but please this those not help you or the team.

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Old
02-15-2010, 12:32 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
Although, I will give you tankers this one thing. I think the problem is that the NHL rewards losing. They REALLY need to move to a random drawing for non-playoff teams. That would encourage teams to all go for it no matter what. Fall short? Sucks, but you have the same chance as a team with no intention at all of winning a game.
I disagree. It should remain the same.

The only way people think teams would willingly tank is people who have no idea what they're talking about.

Sure on the hockey side, it can look like a good decision. But the hockey department is not the only department in an organization and I strongly doubt that any owner could go willingly through 2-3-4-5 years of sucking and losing fan support, ticket sales drop, merch sales drop.

Hell, quite a few teams are having a hard time surviving through decent seasons or only one year of sucking.

No hockey department ever considers icing a bad team for other reasons than budget restrictions. We don't have that in Montreal, and so, there is no reason to not ice the best team we can year-in, year-out. Don't like that? Go watch like the Islanders, the Panthers, the Yotes or such. Yeah they'll have a good season or two, but you'll find yourself uninterested in the product they offer most of the time. Which is what hockey essentially is, entertainment.

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Old
02-15-2010, 12:34 PM
  #57
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Someone should tell people in the organisation that the only reason we're half decent right now is because we can spend to the cap, while the team behind us can't.

And also tell that all our good players are highly paid UFAs that will only get worse with time, while we have basically no youth who can do a good job in a secondary role.

Those are signs it's time to rebuild, because with the exception of goaltending, the team couldn't be in a worse state than what it is right now.

This is not a playoffs team right now (let alone a contender), the mentally of the organisation doesn't change, it won't be a playoffs team 5 years from now either.

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Old
02-15-2010, 12:37 PM
  #58
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My friend just reminded me the Price-Markov incident...and it just seems clear to me Markov could not have missed the games on purpose... It just doesn't fit...so I take back my earlier comment, and give him the benefit of the doubt. He deserves it for everything he gave to this team...

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02-15-2010, 12:37 PM
  #59
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Also, would anyone here give Plekanec $5.5M-$6M a year? Because that's what he'll ask. Of course he's been great this year, but will it last?

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Old
02-15-2010, 12:45 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
I disagree. It should remain the same.

The only way people think teams would willingly tank is people who have no idea what they're talking about.
I agree teams don't tank long term, but teams definitely do tank seasons.

See the Panthers letter to their fans. They're throwing the towel on 09-10 and they're still in striking distance of the playoffs.

If there was no reward to finishing closer to the bottom, they'd have less incentive to do it. I mean, really, how does trading someone like Horton help them long term? He's the type of player you hope to draft. They're getting rid of him while still young to rebuild yet again. To me, they're tanking this season. All in the name of being more competitive next season, sure, but a tank remains a tank.

The upside of leaving it as is, is that it revitalizes failing franchises. Five years ago Pittsburgh and Washington couldn't give tickets away. Thanks to the draft, one is getting a new building and both sellout constantly. However, it also creates feeder teams in less traditional markets. Florida and Atlanta basically exist to develop stars for other teams.

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Old
02-15-2010, 12:56 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
I agree teams don't tank long term, but teams definitely do tank seasons.

See the Panthers letter to their fans. They're throwing the towel on 09-10 and they're still in striking distance of the playoffs.

If there was no reward to finishing closer to the bottom, they'd have less incentive to do it. I mean, really, how does trading someone like Horton help them long term? He's the type of player you hope to draft. They're getting rid of him while still young to rebuild yet again. To me, they're tanking this season. All in the name of being more competitive next season, sure, but a tank remains a tank.

The upside of leaving it as is, is that it revitalizes failing franchises. Five years ago Pittsburgh and Washington couldn't give tickets away. Thanks to the draft, one is getting a new building and both sellout constantly. However, it also creates feeder teams in less traditional markets. Florida and Atlanta basically exist to develop stars for other teams.
They came into the season thinking they could compete for the playoffs. It didn't work.

Obviously some teams will quit when they realize mid-way through a season they are done. So they choose some core players they want to keep, give up some assets to get some and re-tool in the offseason. The idea is still to make the postseason next year, not to go 3-4 years without quality players on the squad.

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Old
02-15-2010, 01:04 PM
  #62
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+1

If we had rebuild the real way 5 years ago this team would probably be battling for 1st in the eastern conference and have 'real' young talent
Do you really think habs fans would allow that ? No, it's why Gainey, or Gauthier, or whomever the GM is has to make trades to try and push the team into the playoffs.

If pleks is asking 5.5-6 mill, he can GTFO

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Old
02-15-2010, 01:11 PM
  #63
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Now let's look at the points situation.

My friend and colleague Patrick V. Hickey points out that no team has made the playoffs with fewer than 90 points since the lockout.

The Canadiens have 64. To reach Pat's Plateau, they'd need 26 points in their next 19 games.

The CKAC projection is not as stringent. The Canadiens' flagship radio station says 87 points makes the playoffs.

But even with a lower cut-off, the CKAC number-crunchers say the Canadiens won't make the playoffs.

Pat Hickey doesn't see them advancing to the post-season, either.

I agree.

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Old
02-15-2010, 01:23 PM
  #64
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I love Markov as a player, and he was one of the few from the last 6-7 years I would never have questionned his heart. BUT...

I cannot not feel uncomfortable seeing him skate and laugh in the first Russian practice Sunday afternoon. I mean, he could've waited 2-3 days, maybe miss one russian game...Or he could've played saturday, maybe on the PP, give your coach 10-15 minutes...It just seems to me he didn't give a **** about the team. I understand he doesn't want to miss the olympics, and that it may be the most important thing in the world for him, a childhood dream, etc... That's fine by me. But You either are able to play (so you play saturday and practice sunday) or you aren't (and you sit out). He seems to be unable to play saturday but fine to practice sunday, which is not professional by any mean.

my 2 cents...
Come on... theres a big difference between playing minutes in NHL game where they hit and shoot for real and laid back Team Russia first practice, and hes had those 2-3 days time to get stronger. If it makes him feel better for the rest of the season, I say let him.

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Old
02-15-2010, 01:28 PM
  #65
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To the "positives" crowd: who cares if we're still in the playoff hunt? We've been in this position every year and we get knocked out in the 1st or 2nd round easily. What the hell is the point of that?

The point some of us were trying to make is that there's no way we can be a cup contender with the pieces we have and the fact we're right against the cap makes it even less plausible. Also we have yet to draft a real star that isn't named Markov. The point of "tanking" 5 yrs ago would have been to rebuild with a couple of franchise/great players to anchor the whole thing.

Like I said last summer the only way we can become a contender is if Price (or Halak I guess) can become a franchise netminder. We have a solid team if we can get that. Then anything is possible.

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Old
02-15-2010, 01:40 PM
  #66
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To the "positives" crowd: who cares if we're still in the playoff hunt? We've been in this position every year and we get knocked out in the 1st or 2nd round easily. What the hell is the point of that?

The point some of us were trying to make is that there's no way we can be a cup contender with the pieces we have and the fact we're right against the cap makes it even less plausible. Also we have yet to draft a real star that isn't named Markov. The point of "tanking" 5 yrs ago would have been to rebuild with a couple of franchise/great players to anchor the whole thing.

Like I said last summer the only way we can become a contender is if Price (or Halak I guess) can become a franchise netminder. We have a solid team if we can get that. Then anything is possible.

Tank would never be acceptable, regardless if IT MAY improve the team. There's no guarantee that if the habs "tanked" the last 5 years that they would be better today because of it....

Anything can happen in the playoffs...Look at the Oilers who were 1 game away from winning it all. I would much rather see this team battle till the end, then give up on the season. Fans who honestly want their team to tank should be ashamed.
I'm always in the belief that you TRY no matter what. Better to try and fail, then to never try at all.


Also, look at it this way..They never tanked and yet have some really great young pieces going forward, they just need to get healthy and address the D and bottom 6..

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Old
02-15-2010, 01:41 PM
  #67
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Carolina has a shot at #1 overall, and now they are playing winning hockey and jeopardizing their odds at the highest pick.

Why?

'Cause they don't want to be losers and finish dead last.

Anyway, Boston will likely pick 1st

sucks

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Originally Posted by Habs83 View Post
Tank would never be acceptable, regardless if IT MAY improve the team. There's no guarantee that if the habs "tanked" the last 5 years that they would be better today because of it....

Anything can happen in the playoffs...Look at the Oilers who were 1 game away from winning it all. I would much rather see this team battle till the end, then give up on the season. Fans who honestly want their team to tank should be ashamed.
I'm always in the belief that you TRY no matter what. Better to try and fail, then to never try at all.

Also, look at it this way..They never tanked and yet have some really great young pieces going forward, they just need to get healthy and address the D and bottom 6..
Agreed 100%

Some Hab fans really should be rooting for the Caps or Hawks if they so crave young stars... and yeah, don't let the door hit you on the way out...

Montreal has Markov, Pouliot, Cammy, Pleks, Price/Halak, and Subban... not too shabby, imo


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 02-18-2010 at 01:37 AM. Reason: Merge
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Old
02-15-2010, 01:56 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Tortue View Post
Or maybe the fact that we're in playoff position with a depleted lineup. Things can only be better and if we look at what better means its 7-6-5-4-3-2-1.
Games Played will hurt this team more than anything at this point.

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Old
02-15-2010, 02:29 PM
  #69
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No, see you're mistaking hindsight for forethought.
You said you would rather finish 10th than 11th. That has nothing to do with hindsight.


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Sure, in retrospect, would it have been better for Montreal to have finished last for the last 15 years? Sure. They would have a much better chance at the Cup today than the alternative.

The world doesn't work that way though. I'd rather watch a competitive team fall short than an embarrassing team get throttled.
Competitive for what? 8th place?

If you know you aren't good enough to win a cup, why not go out and be proactive about building a winner? Why not accept that you can't win and DO SOMETHING about it? You are trying to win a cup not 8th place.

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If Washington intentionally tanked, that's their perogative. I'd rather not sit through that, even if it means less superstars on the ice today.
Stop using the word 'tanked'. That's not an accurate depiction of what happened over there. No team loses on purpose.

They simply recognized that the team they had was never going to win anything so they dealt away their vets for picks and prospects and built through the draft. Not every move panned out but they resisted the tempation to get mediocre free agents to build on. Now they are one of the best teams in the league.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Its called being proactive. And if we built a winning team this way, you would be at the parade too. Don't try to tell us that you wouldn't.
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For god sakes, half this board loses its mind after two losses in a row. No way there wouldn't be mass suicides if the team misses the playoffs five times in a row.

Bottom line is, tanking is idiotic. It's gaming the system and detached from the spirit of the game and reality in general.
Rebuilding makes perfect sense. Detroit, Colorado, New Jersey have all done it and now Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Washington are doing it.

The alternative is to go for short term gains that lead nowhere. Be honest, are you glad we made the moves we did this past summer? Why would getting Gomez and Gionta be better than realizing that our core was broken and building through the draft? Why is building a core that you KNOW isn't good enough to win better than building one that might actually have a chance?

How does this make sense to you?
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Although, I will give you tankers this one thing. I think the problem is that the NHL rewards losing. They REALLY need to move to a random drawing for non-playoff teams. That would encourage teams to all go for it no matter what. Fall short? Sucks, but you have the same chance as a team with no intention at all of winning a game.
I won't bother arguing about the system itself.

The reality is that 'it is what it is' and we have to live within that system. And if the system is designed to weight better picks for lower finishes, then taking advantage of this (via drafting or trading) is a smart way of building your team. It's worked in the past and it will continue to work in the future.

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Old
02-15-2010, 02:50 PM
  #70
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You know what...

I'd RATHER finish 9th than 10th. I'd rather finish 10th than 11th.

It's a sport and the goal of a sport is to win. Draft picks are not an excuse. Good teams find good talent picking 25th-30th every year and if the Habs want to improve, they'll learn to do the same.

Yes, we could go tank and accumulate a bunch of top 5 picks, but for every Pittsburgh and Washington there's an Edmonton (count the first rounders in that line-up). It's no more a guarantee of success than picking 14th.
This
Very Well Put

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02-15-2010, 02:53 PM
  #71
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Or maybe the fact that we're in playoff position with a depleted lineup. Things can only be better and if we look at what better means its 7-6-5-4-3-2-1.
We're not really in a playoff position. There are at least two teams that are on pace to pass us. The only reason we're in 8th (by one point) is that we've played the most games.
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Originally Posted by Habs83 View Post
The team has built a very good core, have a good cupboard of youngsters for the future, have great goaltending depth, have managed to battle for a playoff spot even with many key players going down for long periods of time, have shown heart and come to the defense of their teamates, have passionate fans who yes, buy tickets and sellout every game because they support their team!
How is this a good core? We're small, soft and have zero grit. Are you actually watching the games dude? Nobody came to Plek's defense yesterday including Pleks himself.

As for our fans, if they'll buy tickets to see the team we have now, they won't be going away anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Habs83 View Post
Going forward, management needs to "RE-TOOL" not rebuild. We have some really great pieces, and now need to use some of the assets we've built up to complete this team. ie: top 4 puck-moving dman, bottom 6 gritty tough forwards. A healthy top 6 and the changes I mentioned above would allow us to be competitive with just about any other team in the conference. The caps are the best team in the league, and yet our record against them is 2-1-1..Look, another positive!
Re-Tooling will leave us with the same small soft core. The only thing we have going for us is our goaltending.
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This team has been UNHEALTHY for awhile...The only season we virtually had no injuries, we finished 1st!
That was a completely different team than the one we have now.

As for us being unhealthy, we're 25th in goals for and get outplayed every night. Injuries have hurt but they aren't the reason we aren't contenders.
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Originally Posted by ymorin007 View Post
Come on!!!! That's just another example of being negative.

People are so impatient, please give them a chance, we have a group of players who are happy to play in MTL (Markov, Cam, Gill and more) and we ***** at them at the first possible reason.
It's ironic that you say this.

Rebuilders are upset with the team because they have been impatient. This past season Gainey decided to blow up the team. So rather than be patient and build the right way, he went with mediocre short term fixes designed for small short term gains. And as a result we got exactly what we had before, a bubble team designed to sneak into 8th place.

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They want to win much more then all of us. That is why I like this team, the major part of them are winners at heart. Just look at Gionta when they ask him if it was because so much player on the was injured they lost against Philly and he said NO because we won against WSH with the same players....wow that his a winner by heart.

I understand that people come here because they use this board has a therapy center but please this those not help you or the team.
So we should be like you and blindly praise the team for making moves that make no sense at all? Does that help the team?
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Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
I disagree. It should remain the same.

The only way people think teams would willingly tank is people who have no idea what they're talking about.
Really?

Then why is it that most cup winning teams are rebuilds and have at least one top pick leading the way? You sure you're not the one who doesn't know what he's talking about here?
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Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
Sure on the hockey side, it can look like a good decision. But the hockey department is not the only department in an organization and I strongly doubt that any owner could go willingly through 2-3-4-5 years of sucking and losing fan support, ticket sales drop, merch sales drop.

Hell, quite a few teams are having a hard time surviving through decent seasons or only one year of sucking.

No hockey department ever considers icing a bad team for other reasons than budget restrictions. We don't have that in Montreal, and so, there is no reason to not ice the best team we can year-in, year-out. Don't like that? Go watch like the Islanders, the Panthers, the Yotes or such. Yeah they'll have a good season or two, but you'll find yourself uninterested in the product they offer most of the time. Which is what hockey essentially is, entertainment.
You have things completely backwards.

Montreal is a market where the building will be full no matter what. If it wasn't then the building would be empty now.

We have corporate sponsorship that other clubs can only dream about and the fans are going to keep coming no matter what. The only way for us to improve profits is via going deep into the playoffs and selling more jerseys.

Teams like Florida don't have this luxury. If they suck as bad as we have this year the fans will go away. Unlike us, they actually have to think about this stuff.

We have NO excuse for not rebuilding other than looking for short term gains the way the Leafs have over the past decade.
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Tank would never be acceptable, regardless if IT MAY improve the team. There's no guarantee that if the habs "tanked" the last 5 years that they would be better today because of it....
Of course rebuilding is an option. The very guys here who say it isn't are the guys who are going to go to the game no matter what. If they were going to leave, they'd have left by now.
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Anything can happen in the playoffs...Look at the Oilers who were 1 game away from winning it all. I would much rather see this team battle till the end, then give up on the season. Fans who honestly want their team to tank should be ashamed.
I'm always in the belief that you TRY no matter what. Better to try and fail, then to never try at all.
That makes no sense either.

Your 'anyone can play, anyone can win' strategy doesn't work. If it did then we'd see a bunch of fluky winners and this doesn't happen. The only time that a real fluke happened it was us and we just happened to find one of the greatest goalies of all time to take us there.

As for "trying no matter what"... what do you want us to "try" for? 8th place? Do you want us to trade away five first round picks if it means that we can get 8th place this year? Does that make sense to you?

Why not recognize that we won't win this year and "try" to build a team that can legitimately compete for a cup someday instead? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Why not try to proactively build a winner instead?
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Also, look at it this way..They never tanked and yet have some really great young pieces going forward, they just need to get healthy and address the D and bottom 6..
The Oilers didn't win and haven't made the playoffs since. It was a fluke and it didn't repeat itself. And what's worse is that they dumped a bunch of top picks when they poached an RFA from Anaheim.

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Old
02-15-2010, 03:14 PM
  #72
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Depth my friend. Russia's depth is much more different than Canada..So the situations are different...Not to mention, NOBODY here knows what markov's injury is, maybe its something that heals over 4 days or so...Like others have mentioned, the last time he played was Wednesday, and the next time he plays is Tuesday..Not to mention he HAS TO BE CLEARED TO PLAY....There's no guarantee he starts the tournament, he may miss a game or two.
Good point. I checked the the russian team and noticed they're bringing 8 D-men. Their first game is against weak competition so he may not even be needed to play. The Russians are so strong up front that they may not even need him until the knockout stages...

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Old
02-15-2010, 03:16 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Really?

Then why is it that most cup winning teams are rebuilds and have at least one top pick leading the way? You sure you're not the one who doesn't know what he's talking about here?
These teams were either terribly mismanaged in the past or could not afford their best players. This has nothing to do with the team purposely icing a terrible team. Notice the terms willingly tank? The 06-07 Flyers didn't willingly tank yet ended up with the 2nd overall pick.

If the team we currently have is really awful, we'll end up in the cellar. Guess what? We're not in the cellar and we've had our *** ****ed by injuries. This is actually a pretty decent team that happens to be pretty young also (2nd youngest team in the league iirc).

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You have things completely backwards.

Montreal is a market where the building will be full no matter what. If it wasn't then the building would be empty now.

We have corporate sponsorship that other clubs can only dream about and the fans are going to keep coming no matter what. The only way for us to improve profits is via going deep into the playoffs and selling more jerseys.

Teams like Florida don't have this luxury. If they suck as bad as we have this year the fans will go away. Unlike us, they actually have to think about this stuff.

We have NO excuse for not rebuilding other than looking for short term gains the way the Leafs have over the past decade.
Yes we have. We have a playoff caliber team. We should be trying to get to the cup, not to trade the players that make us close to the ultimate goal for a great unknown you 'tankers' assume will take us over the top.

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02-15-2010, 03:21 PM
  #74
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Lucius
You know what...

I'd RATHER finish 9th than 10th. I'd rather finish 10th than 11th.

It's a sport and the goal of a sport is to win. Draft picks are not an excuse. Good teams find good talent picking 25th-30th every year and if the Habs want to improve, they'll learn to do the same.

Yes, we could go tank and accumulate a bunch of top 5 picks, but for every Pittsburgh and Washington there's an Edmonton (count the first rounders in that line-up). It's no more a guarantee of success than picking 14th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HEPG24 View Post
This
Very Well Put

that is how the Coach needs to think...

but management must be always aware of the long-term goals of the franchise. Focusing just on this year and just on finishing as high as possible (especially when you're talking 6-7-8-9-10th), is short-sighted and a one-way ticket to mediocrity.

unless a GM has a team that he evaluates as having at least a realistic chance of making a deep playoff run, he needs to be angling to make his roster better in the future, even if it means sacrificing something in the present.

and even as fan, if the team is out of the playoff race, do you really want them going on a tear to finish the season so that they finish with the lowest possible draft pick? that's crazy talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
These teams were either terribly mismanaged in the past or could not afford their best players. This has nothing to do with the team purposely icing a terrible team. Notice the terms willingly tank? The 06-07 Flyers didn't willingly tank yet ended up with the 2nd overall pick.

If the team we currently have is really awful, we'll end up in the cellar. Guess what? We're not in the cellar and we've had our *** ****ed by injuries. This is actually a pretty decent team that happens to be pretty young also (2nd youngest team in the league iirc).



Yes we have. We have a playoff caliber team. We should be trying to get to the cup, not to trade the players that make us close to the ultimate goal for a great unknown you 'tankers' assume will take us over the top.
you really think this team, even perfectly healthy, can win multiple (4 to be exact) 7-game series vs teams like Pitts, Wash, NJ, SJ, Chi, VCR...

really?

i wish i had your optimism ( or maybe your beer-goggles.)


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 02-18-2010 at 01:43 AM. Reason: Merge
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Old
02-15-2010, 03:27 PM
  #75
Em Ancien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
you really think this team, even perfectly healthy, can win multiple (4 to be exact) 7-game series vs teams like Pitts, Wash, NJ, SJ, Chi, VCR...

really?

i wish i had your optimism ( or maybe your beer-goggles.)
They can, doesn't mean they will.

The point is, it's unknown how it will play itself out. To take yourself completely out of it instead of trying is foolish if you have a squad that can make the playoffs.

Not to mention, no matter how few the games, getting these kids to play in the playoffs is only beneficial for the future. Which seems to be something you love to prepare for.

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