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03-01-2010, 10:54 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The grass is always greener somewhere else for a Ranger fan. It shouldnt be in this case.

I dont know what it is. Impatience, frustration, whatever, but given this teams position priority #1 needs to be ridding the organization of toxic contracts and acquiring assets. Whether that takes miracle trades, banishment to the minor leagues, or just plain patience, then so be it.

But this recent movement to move positive pieces of the organization for slightly better players (at more of a cap hit) to add to this current cluster**** boggles the mind, quite frankly.
A lot of it is impatience, and a lot of it is overvaluing other centers in the system such as Anisimov and Stepan.

Yes, Anisimov and Stepan may have more potential than Dubinsky. But, from what I've seen from Anisimov this season, I'm not sure if he's ready to take on an increased role at the moment. Let him finish out the season as 3rd line C and then maybe next year he can start playing in the top 6 on a consistent basis. And Stepan is probably a year or 2 away from playing in the NHL.

So if Dubinsky is to be traded because of our organizational depth at center, we are better off waiting until Anisimov can handle a bigger workload and when Stepan is ready to enter the NHL. There should be no rush to trade Dubinsky right now, especially when this team isn't close to winning a Cup yet.

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03-01-2010, 10:58 AM
  #202
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Actually Philadelphia considered him strongly at #11. And the Kings were interested at #13. Woulda, shoulda, coulda...
Really? I know that's always been the legend around here, but wasn't it debunked in earlier Jessimen threads?

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03-01-2010, 11:09 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
A lot of it is impatience, and a lot of it is overvaluing other centers in the system such as Anisimov and Stepan.

Yes, Anisimov and Stepan may have more potential than Dubinsky. But, from what I've seen from Anisimov this season, I'm not sure if he's ready to take on an increased role at the moment. Let him finish out the season as 3rd line C and then maybe next year he can start playing in the top 6 on a consistent basis. And Stepan is probably a year or 2 away from playing in the NHL.

So if Dubinsky is to be traded because of our organizational depth at center, we are better off waiting until Anisimov can handle a bigger workload and when Stepan is ready to enter the NHL. There should be no rush to trade Dubinsky right now, especially when this team isn't close to winning a Cup yet.
Unless of course you've reached the conclusion that he may never develop to be the first line center we were all assuming he would become a year ago. In which case, it would behoove you to trade him as soon as possible before the rest of the league figures this out...

It all depends on the Rangers internal scouting.

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03-01-2010, 11:15 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Hindsight is 20-20, any Jessiman argument is ridiculous IMO.

At the time it was a good pick. Maybe you could argue Parise over Jessiman, but other then that it was a GOOD pick AT THE TIME.

6'6" 19 year old kid who just put up 47 points as a freshman at Dartmouth. People are all over Kreider and he has 15 points so far this season. Sure it's apples and oranges, different times, different players. But something to think about.

Does it suck that he didn't develop? Obviously.

But again, hindsight is 20/20.
Uhhh no....Jessiman was a bad pick.

He was raw at the time of the draft. Despite the fact that his stock rose huge after his freshman year, and it was easy to fall for his size or his freshman year stats, he was still a very risky pick at 12. Especially when you take into account the depth of talent in the first round, and the sad state of our system.

Teams that lack first round picks in 2 of the previous 3 years (2000 & 2002) and have prospect pools featuring guys like Lee Felardeau and Garth Murray, should NOT be drafting high risk players. Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.

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03-01-2010, 11:26 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Unless of course you've reached the conclusion that he may never develop to be the first line center we were all assuming he would become a year ago. In which case, it would behoove you to trade him as soon as possible before the rest of the league figures this out...

It all depends on the Rangers internal scouting.
If anyone banked on Dubinsky ever becoming a #1 center, well, thats your mistake.

Is that what the expectations became when he signed that MAMMOUTH 1.85 per season contract last year?

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03-01-2010, 11:28 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The grass is always greener somewhere else for a Ranger fan. It shouldnt be in this case.

I dont know what it is. Impatience, frustration, whatever, but given this teams position priority #1 needs to be ridding the organization of toxic contracts and acquiring assets. Whether that takes miracle trades, banishment to the minor leagues, or just plain patience, then so be it.

But this recent movement to move positive pieces of the organization for slightly better players (at more of a cap hit) to add to this current cluster**** boggles the mind, quite frankly.
The same can be said about a certain contingent that clings too tightly to individuals because they came up through our system. I'm not singling you out, but there's this mentality that every single player we develop is going to be shipped out and will come back to haunt us. Honestly, how many times has that happened? Savard? Zidlicky? The argument against trading away picks is iffy at best because there's no real assurance the Rangers would have selected the right players.

Dubinsky is a good player, but he's been mired with inconsistency his entire career. He also gets a very, very long leash from Rangers fans because he's "home grown" and supposedly "bleeds blue." Yet there's been many games where he's been absolutely invisible. In fact, I'd say there are far more games that fit that category than games where he's made a significant impact.

What kind of player is he going to be? Is he a power center that slots into the top-six? A checking line center? Is he even a center at all? He's in his 3rd season and, to me at least, he hasn't taken any sort of significant step forward in his development. I realize he was injured this year, but I just don't see him as a tremendously important piece moving forward. Sure, he was on pace for a few more points this year than last year, but it's been at the cost of his physical game. He needs to take a lesson from Stepan because he needs that edge in his game to be successful. If he can manage that, he could be a good 2nd line center, if not, I don't see him as more than a 3rd line centerman.

That being said, I don't think moving him for a guy like Weiss is a good move. Weiss isn't a significant enough upgrade over Dubinsky to justify the immediate impact on the cap. Horton? Well I'd really have to consider that one.

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03-01-2010, 11:29 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Unless of course you've reached the conclusion that he may never develop to be the first line center we were all assuming he would become a year ago. In which case, it would behoove you to trade him as soon as possible before the rest of the league figures this out...

It all depends on the Rangers internal scouting.
Who was expecting Dubinsky to be a first line center? I hope it wasn't the Rangers' scouting staff. Just because he plays on the first line does not mean his potential is a first line center. Part of the reason he's had to play there is due to chemistry and lack of center depth prior to the Jokinen trade.

Dubinsky is a player who is capable of playing first line center but is not a legitimate first line center in the vein of Thornton or Crosby.

Hockey's Future always ranked Dubinsky as a 7.0B, a second line forward. And that's what he is right now. I'm not sure what the Rangers' expectations are, but I think the organization is in big, big trouble if they projected Dubinsky to be a first line center.

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03-01-2010, 11:31 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Hindsight is 20-20, any Jessiman argument is ridiculous IMO.

At the time it was a good pick. Maybe you could argue Parise over Jessiman, but other then that it was a GOOD pick AT THE TIME.

6'6" 19 year old kid who just put up 47 points as a freshman at Dartmouth. People are all over Kreider and he has 15 points so far this season. Sure it's apples and oranges, different times, different players. But something to think about.

Does it suck that he didn't develop? Obviously.

But again, hindsight is 20/20.
I remember that pick being a project pick even then.

A big bodied kid that would take 3+ years to develope, but the prevailing thought was that when he does develope, look out.

I don't remember that pick ever being considered good.

I do remember the Flyers looking to trade up to get Jessiman (imagine if we have Richards instead?

Nice.

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03-01-2010, 11:38 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Unless of course you've reached the conclusion that he may never develop to be the first line center we were all assuming he would become a year ago. In which case, it would behoove you to trade him as soon as possible before the rest of the league figures this out...

It all depends on the Rangers internal scouting.
I know his sounds like an echo, but who thought he was ever going to develope into a 1st line center?

He's having his own very real issues developing into a consistent 2nd line center.

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03-01-2010, 11:58 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The same can be said about a certain contingent that clings too tightly to individuals because they came up through our system. I'm not singling you out, but there's this mentality that every single player we develop is going to be shipped out and will come back to haunt us. Honestly, how many times has that happened? Savard? Zidlicky? The argument against trading away picks is iffy at best because there's no real assurance the Rangers would have selected the right players.

Dubinsky is a good player, but he's been mired with inconsistency his entire career. He also gets a very, very long leash from Rangers fans because he's "home grown" and supposedly "bleeds blue." Yet there's been many games where he's been absolutely invisible. In fact, I'd say there are far more games that fit that category than games where he's made a significant impact.

What kind of player is he going to be? Is he a power center that slots into the top-six? A checking line center? Is he even a center at all? He's in his 3rd season and, to me at least, he hasn't taken any sort of significant step forward in his development. I realize he was injured this year, but I just don't see him as a tremendously important piece moving forward. Sure, he was on pace for a few more points this year than last year, but it's been at the cost of his physical game. He needs to take a lesson from Stepan because he needs that edge in his game to be successful. If he can manage that, he could be a good 2nd line center, if not, I don't see him as more than a 3rd line centerman.

That being said, I don't think moving him for a guy like Weiss is a good move. Weiss isn't a significant enough upgrade over Dubinsky to justify the immediate impact on the cap. Horton? Well I'd really have to consider that one.
Fair points. Dubinsky and Callahan are the benchmarks when talking about homegrown guys that have proven to be NHL forwards. Do I think either one will amount to anything above a 2nd/3rd liner? No probably not. But they have been and remain to be young, important building blocks for this franchise.

I can certainly understand fans becoming too attached to players like these, but in the organizations current state, we are really in no position to start dealing away young/cheap NHL-caliber players. What I think is even more dangerous than overvaluing Dubinsky and Callahan is overvaluing guys like Stepan and Krieider who are years away from stepping on NHL ice. People who say that Dubinsky is expendable because of Stepan really have no clue how the process works.

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03-01-2010, 12:14 PM
  #211
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In all honesty we as fans are all gunshy right now (this being due to past dealings of young guys we should have/wanted to keep)...

it's grey with Dubi for a reason... no one knows what he is yet. There's a contigent that says deal him while his value is high... and another that wants to hold onto him to see what he is. Unfortunately both sides are right and wrong at this moment... time will tell.

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03-01-2010, 12:20 PM
  #212
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Really? I know that's always been the legend around here, but wasn't it debunked in earlier Jessimen threads?
I was told this by a (then) Flyers Vice President.

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03-01-2010, 12:24 PM
  #213
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Fair points. Dubinsky and Callahan are the benchmarks when talking about homegrown guys that have proven to be NHL forwards. Do I think either one will amount to anything above a 2nd/3rd liner? No probably not. But they have been and remain to be young, important building blocks for this franchise.
You're right, but even then I still consider Callahan to be more important than Dubinsky. He's versatile, knows his role, and busts his ass every shift. Dubi is just never the same player from shift to shift, let alone from game to game. If we're filling roles on the team, yes, Dubinsky is a valuable piece. However, we're a team full of role players filling spots that should be filled with impact players. If you have the chance to replace a role player with an impact forward, you should make the deal. Obviously I'm not talking about flipping Dubinsky for Ray Whitney, but you know what I mean.

It's much easier to replace a Dubinsky than it is a Gaborik. I agree that this organization is in a tough spot right now, but we're going to have to make the tough choices to bring in some talent. If we had one or two "sure things" in the system I'd gladly hang onto Dubinsky, but we don't. So that leaves two options to acquire talent; Free agency, which we can all agree on is a horrible idea for this front office, or trading, which has been a much better option recently.

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I can certainly understand fans becoming too attached to players like these, but in the organizations current state, we are really in no position to start dealing away young/cheap NHL-caliber players. What I think is even more dangerous than overvaluing Dubinsky and Callahan is overvaluing guys like Stepan and Krieider who are years away from stepping on NHL ice. People who say that Dubinsky is expendable because of Stepan really have no clue how the process works.
Can't argue with you here. I agree that the overvaluing of prospects is dangerous and is often the case around here.

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03-01-2010, 12:40 PM
  #214
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You're right, but even then I still consider Callahan to be more important than Dubinsky. He's versatile, knows his role, and busts his ass every shift. Dubi is just never the same player from shift to shift, let alone from game to game. If we're filling roles on the team, yes, Dubinsky is a valuable piece. However, we're a team full of role players filling spots that should be filled with impact players. If you have the chance to replace a role player with an impact forward, you should make the deal. Obviously I'm not talking about flipping Dubinsky for Ray Whitney, but you know what I mean.

It's much easier to replace a Dubinsky than it is a Gaborik. I agree that this organization is in a tough spot right now, but we're going to have to make the tough choices to bring in some talent. If we had one or two "sure things" in the system I'd gladly hang onto Dubinsky, but we don't. So that leaves two options to acquire talent; Free agency, which we can all agree on is a horrible idea for this front office, or trading, which has been a much better option recently.



Can't argue with you here. I agree that the overvaluing of prospects is dangerous and is often the case around here.
I totally agree with the comparison between Dubinsky at Callahan, but I'd stop short of calling Callahan more valuable, especially since he makes about 500K more per season than Dubinsky. And especially because its a bit easier to settle into the kind of role hes excelled in over the last year or so.

I also agree that Dubinsky is a bit of an enigma, but Im more than willing to give him another year to develop while the franchise gets one step closer to being able to evaluate their prospects, and also gets 1 year closer to shedding toxic contracts. Our overpaid players are the crux of our problems, so Im kind of reluctant to say that the next course of action should be to trade away a cheap/young top 6 tweener whose proved himself to be a legitimate NHL'er.

I guess its all in the eye of the beholder. I dont think making Dubinsky a centerpiece for a Horton trade makes us all that much better in the shortterm at all. Sure, hes more talented, but he'll go through the same invisibility stretches at double the cap hit. With all that said, yes, Dubinsky/Callahan/whoever is expendable in the right deal. I just dont think one is going to come to fruition.


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03-01-2010, 02:13 PM
  #215
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If anyone banked on Dubinsky ever becoming a #1 center, well, thats your mistake.

Is that what the expectations became when he signed that MAMMOUTH 1.85 per season contract last year?
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Who was expecting Dubinsky to be a first line center? I hope it wasn't the Rangers' scouting staff. Just because he plays on the first line does not mean his potential is a first line center. Part of the reason he's had to play there is due to chemistry and lack of center depth prior to the Jokinen trade.

Dubinsky is a player who is capable of playing first line center but is not a legitimate first line center in the vein of Thornton or Crosby.

Hockey's Future always ranked Dubinsky as a 7.0B, a second line forward. And that's what he is right now. I'm not sure what the Rangers' expectations are, but I think the organization is in big, big trouble if they projected Dubinsky to be a first line center.
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I know his sounds like an echo, but who thought he was ever going to develope into a 1st line center?

He's having his own very real issues developing into a consistent 2nd line center.
I believe that a lot of people were. I know that I personally was hoping he was following the Mike Richards development curve. But ignore the fact that I said the magic words "first line" and the point still holds - if you're the Rangers and you've reevaluated his ceiling (regardless of whether it was 60, 70 or 80 pts), then it behooves you to trade him now while other organizations still think he has that ceiling.

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03-01-2010, 02:26 PM
  #216
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I believe that a lot of people were. I know that I personally was hoping he was following the Mike Richards development curve. But ignore the fact that I said the magic words "first line" and the point still holds - if you're the Rangers and you've reevaluated his ceiling (regardless of whether it was 60, 70 or 80 pts), then it behooves you to trade him now while other organizations still think he has that ceiling.
Thats the other misconception thats evolving in this thread. That we can somehow pull the wool over the eyes of another GM by "selling high" on Dubinsky. I dont think theres one GM in the league that thinks Dubinsky is a first line talent in the traditional sense. If there was, he probably would've been inked to an offer sheet this summer.

Or, to be more precise, I dont think anybody who had logical expectations of Dubinsky think hes performing below or above his development curve.

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03-01-2010, 02:33 PM
  #217
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I was told this by a (then) Flyers Vice President.
Gotcha.

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03-01-2010, 02:38 PM
  #218
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Thats the other misconception thats evolving in this thread. That we can somehow pull the wool over the eyes of another GM by "selling high" on Dubinsky. I dont think theres one GM in the league that thinks Dubinsky is a first line talent in the traditional sense. If there was, he probably would've been inked to an offer sheet this summer.
Why is that a misconception? Do you think that all GMs have the same evaluation of every player? That every trade is simply shuffling equal valued pieces?

And again, ignore the words "first line" from my first post. If the Rangers think he's going to max out as an incosistent 2nd/3rd liner who scores about 50-55 pts every year and there is another team who's scouts think they see something more along the lines of an excellent 2nd liner who will score 65 every year, you should still deal him.

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03-01-2010, 02:49 PM
  #219
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I totally agree with the comparison between Dubinsky at Callahan, but I'd stop short of calling Callahan more valuable, especially since he makes about 500K more per season than Dubinsky. And especially because its a bit easier to settle into the kind of role hes excelled in over the last year or so.
Well, I do think Callahan is worth the extra salary to be honest. He's wearing an A, is one of the best PKers in the league, and never takes a shift off. I think if Dubinsky had the same mentality that Callahan had, he'd actually be a better player than Cally. I know Dubinsky's role has bounced around over the last couple seasons, but part of that is his own doing. His lack of consistency isn't really anyone's fault but his own.

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I also agree that Dubinsky is a bit of an enigma, but Im more than willing to give him another year to develop while the franchise gets one step closer to being able to evaluate their prospects, and also gets 1 year closer to shedding toxic contracts. Our overpaid players are the crux of our problems, so Im kind of reluctant to say that the next course of action should be to trade away a cheap/young top 6 tweener whose proved himself to be a legitimate NHL'er.
Well, I'm not saying he should be moved based on how our prospects develop. I just think he's starting to plateau, if he hasn't already, and sooner or later teams will catch on. One more year could be the difference between a Horton and a borderline top-six player as a potential return.

I agree that contracts are an issue, but I don't think that has to be the guideline for how this team proceeds forward. Payroll isn't always the tell all for a teams performance, we know that as Rangers fans. I mean, what are those contracts really hindering us from doing? We have a lot of money tied up in average players, but if we remove those contracts, aren't we just going to repeat the process?

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I guess its all in the eye of the beholder. I dont think making Dubinsky a centerpiece for a Horton trade makes us all that much better in the shortterm at all. Sure, hes more talented, but he'll go through the same invisibility stretches at double the cap hit. With all that said, yes, Dubinsky/Callahan/whoever is expendable in the right deal. I just dont think one is going to come to fruition.
Well I'm not really thinking short term here. Horton is what, a year older than Dubi? It's not as if he's some over the hill veteran, or even close to pushing 30. Horton's ceiling is MUCH higher than Dubi's, IMO, and he's achieved more at the NHL level than Dubinsky has. Add to that the fact that he fills an organizational need -- a right handed shot with size and 25+ goal abilities -- and it seems like a good move for the future.

In theory, in a few years we could have a top-six of:

Kreider/Grachev - AA/Stepan - Gaborik
Grachev/Kreider - AA/Stepan - Horton

Obviously not a guarantee it will be effective or even come to fruition, but if we're banking on the "youth will work" notion, that's a pretty darn effective top six. Lots of skill, lots of speed, and not a single player under 6ft tall.

Yes, Horton does disappear for stretches, but he's been phenomenal this season. I'm of the party that thinks he's finally turned that corner in his career.

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03-01-2010, 09:24 PM
  #220
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Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Couldn't have said it better.

Incase someone missed it.

Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.

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03-01-2010, 10:03 PM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Ranger86 View Post
Couldn't have said it better.

Incase someone missed it.

Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

The front office screwed up tremendously and this organization has been set back because of it.
Especially not when Parise, Getzlaf, Brown, Seabrook, Richards, Kesler, Perry were all still on the board.

YADA YADA YADA
Sweet Jesus...your copy and paste privileges are revoked...

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03-01-2010, 10:05 PM
  #222
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Are we still griping about a draft 7 years ago?

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03-01-2010, 10:12 PM
  #223
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Are we still griping about a draft 7 years ago?
Fitz didn't you know...Jessiman sucked just to spite half the folks on the board...so they can't let it go...

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03-01-2010, 10:32 PM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Are we still griping about a draft 7 years ago?
How about this track record:

1st Round/Overall Pick #

Steve Kelly (6th)
Boyd Devereaux (6th) & Matthieu Descoteaux (19th)
Michael Riesen (14th)
Michael Henrich (13th)
Jani Rita (13th)
Alexei Mikhnov (17th)
Alex Hemsky (13th)
Jesse Niinimaki (15th)
Marc-Antoine Pouliot (22nd)
Devan Dubnky (14th) & Rob Scremp (25th)
Andrew Cogliano (25th)
-NONE-
Sam Gagner (6th) Alex Plante (15th) & Riley Nash (21st)
Jorden Eberle (22nd)
Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson (10th)

That's 18 1st round picks from 1995-2009. How many are 1st line NHL'ers? 1? 2nd liners? 3rd liners? Non-factors? Complete waste of a pick? Never played an NHL game?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_Oilers

Let the Jessiman thing go, already.

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03-02-2010, 01:43 AM
  #225
NYR Sting
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
How about this track record:

1st Round/Overall Pick #

Steve Kelly (6th)
Boyd Devereaux (6th) & Matthieu Descoteaux (19th)
Michael Riesen (14th)
Michael Henrich (13th)
Jani Rita (13th)
Alexei Mikhnov (17th)
Alex Hemsky (13th)
Jesse Niinimaki (15th)
Marc-Antoine Pouliot (22nd)
Devan Dubnky (14th) & Rob Scremp (25th)
Andrew Cogliano (25th)
-NONE-
Sam Gagner (6th) Alex Plante (15th) & Riley Nash (21st)
Jorden Eberle (22nd)
Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson (10th)

That's 18 1st round picks from 1995-2009. How many are 1st line NHL'ers? 1? 2nd liners? 3rd liners? Non-factors? Complete waste of a pick? Never played an NHL game?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_Oilers

Let the Jessiman thing go, already.
You realize that Sather was in charge for a number of those, right? Take a look at the Edmonton Oilers drafting history from 1983-2000, until Sather left to go to the Rangers. It's frightening.

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