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Old
02-16-2010, 03:43 PM
  #176
mullichicken25
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I think he completely understands it. Like i said earlier, Ovechkin, Crosby and a ton of other players have gotten the extra two early in their careers. They knew it was wrong too, they just made a mistake. Their coach's sat them and they got the point. But did there coach's act out and scream like a maniac? No, in fact, I'd like to see anyone show me video of an NHL coach doing this in the last 20 years to a rookie or vet, I dont think you'll find it, its bush league theatrics.
i think you, and brooks, are making entirely too big of a deal out of this

some coaches yell, some don't... i dont have a means of verfiying this cause im at work but im quite sure Torts isnt the first coach in history to yell at a player on the bench...this isnt ballet

obviuoslly this was something he felt very strongly about, and it seems safe to say, judging by his reaction and the lack of that type of call against us, its something he's made a point of addressing in the past

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02-16-2010, 03:43 PM
  #177
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Were you saying that Renney kept up the Rangers offensive output last year compared to the previous years, or are you just comparing it to this one? Because I thought you were comparing it to previous years and it's just a flat out lie to say that the Rangers last year were as good offensively as they were the years before that.

You also aren't really making any points other than "I don't like that Tortorella yelled and I don't think it was necessary" and there's not really a rebuttal to a personal opinion like that other than "I disagree with your opinion".

And you indirectly brought Renney into the conversation by saying the Rangers won more with him as the coach.

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02-16-2010, 03:52 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
i think you, and brooks, are making entirely too big of a deal out of this

some coaches yell, some don't... i dont have a means of verfiying this cause im at work but im quite sure Torts isnt the first coach in history to yell at a player on the bench...this isnt ballet

obviuoslly this was something he felt very strongly about, and it seems safe to say, judging by his reaction and the lack of that type of call against us, its something he's made a point of addressing in the past
When you mention ballett I just cant take your response seriously. You think i'm some pansy who cant handle rough stuff. If ya knew me you'd actually laugh at that thought. When i was in US juniors I had to be reprimanded often for my play, I was very much an Avery type player. Trust me, I know all to well about how different coaches react to players who play undisciplined.

The most effective i've seen throughout my 20 years in USA hockey were the ones who remained in control. All they had to do was bench you and you knew exactly how the coach felt about a certain behavior. In this case, I dont even think it had to do with a player who cant keep his mouth shut, it was a mistake, punishment is fine and professional, berating him and acting out shouldve been reserved for a player that is on his last chance.

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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Were you saying that Renney kept up the Rangers offensive output last year compared to the previous years, or are you just comparing it to this one? Because I thought you were comparing it to previous years and it's just a flat out lie to say that the Rangers last year were as good offensively as they were the years before that.

You also aren't really making any points other than "I don't like that Tortorella yelled and I don't think it was necessary" and there's not really a rebuttal to a personal opinion like that other than "I disagree with your opinion".

And you indirectly brought Renney into the conversation by saying the Rangers won more with him as the coach.
I was comparing this years offense to last year, thats it.

Again, you think screaming and acting like a buffoon is the right approach for a rookie first time offender who has been our most disciplined Dman.

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02-16-2010, 04:14 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
When you mention ballett I just cant take your response seriously. You think i'm some pansy who cant handle rough stuff. If ya knew me you'd actually laugh at that thought. When i was in US juniors I had to be reprimanded often for my play, I was very much an Avery type player. Trust me, I know all to well about how different coaches react to players who play undisciplined.

The most effective i've seen throughout my 20 years in USA hockey were the ones who remained in control. All they had to do was bench you and you knew exactly how the coach felt about a certain behavior. In this case, I dont even think it had to do with a player who cant keep his mouth shut, it was a mistake, punishment is fine and professional, berating him and acting out shouldve been reserved for a player that is on his last chance.

the funny thing is that throughout my playing career i was the opposite of an avery type player, in that i didn't run my mouth neaerly as much and played a reasonablly clean game, and my favorite coach was an all out loose cannon, maniac type of guy

when you **** up you knew you were gonna hear it, but when you did something great and he gave you recognition you felt invincible

difference in opinion i suppose, coming from very different experiences

as for the ballet comment, not really directed at you, i was more trying to say that the players should certainlly be able to handle it, regardless of whether or not it bothered some hack writer form the post

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02-16-2010, 04:18 PM
  #180
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Joe Marsh wasn't and isn't the meanest, or the nicest coach. A good balance is always good.

A coach's job is to motivate, and that works in differnet ways for different players.

That said a player should have the emotional strength to handle criticism. Otherwise you may lack mentally in other aspects of the game like stressing out in clutch situations.

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02-16-2010, 04:20 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
the funny thing is that throughout my playing career i was the opposite of an avery type player, in that i didn't run my mouth neaerly as much and played a reasonablly clean game, and my favorite coach was an all out loose cannon, maniac type of guy

when you **** up you knew you were gonna hear it, but when you did something great and he gave you recognition you felt invincible

difference in opinion i suppose, coming from very different experiences

as for the ballet comment, not really directed at you, i was more trying to say that the players should certainlly be able to handle it, regardless of whether or not it bothered some hack writer form the post
In the end, I'm really not taking Del Z's feelings into account here. I really dont think his feelings were hurt at all, like you said, he knew he was gonna get chewed out for it. But Torts made a spectacle of himself like that because of a mistake a rookie made. You and Lev and everyone agrees that when you make a bad mental error like that a coach will not be happy. But was it really necessary to act like a buffoon or could he have just told him to take a seat and wait until the intermission to let the kid have it. Cause I bet ya he ended up doing that anyway.

Okay, lets call it a day, its not the most pressing issue in Rangerland

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02-16-2010, 04:22 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Joe Marsh wasn't and isn't the meanest, or the nicest coach. A good balance is always good.

A coach's job is to motivate, and that works in differnet ways for different players.

That said a player should have the emotional strength to handle criticism. Otherwise you may lack mentally in other aspects of the game like stressing out in clutch situations.
Like I said, i dont think it matters when it comes to Del Z's emotions. Its only a problem if one of our players does this again. NOW Torts HAS TO attack that guy the same way he attacked Del Z.

Accountability !

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Old
02-16-2010, 04:40 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
He also motioned towards him like he was gonna be the one to drag him to the end of the bench. Again, he lost his control. Name one other coach in the NHL you've seen do that to a player.

end of story
Off the top of my head.....

Mike Keenan

Mike Milbury

Ken Hitchcock

Ted Nolan

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Old
02-16-2010, 04:42 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
In the end, I'm really not taking Del Z's feelings into account here. I really dont think his feelings were hurt at all, like you said, he knew he was gonna get chewed out for it. But Torts made a spectacle of himself like that because of a mistake a rookie made. You and Lev and everyone agrees that when you make a bad mental error like that a coach will not be happy. But was it really necessary to act like a buffoon or could he have just told him to take a seat and wait until the intermission to let the kid have it. Cause I bet ya he ended up doing that anyway.

Okay, lets call it a day, its not the most pressing issue in Rangerland

I disagree, Rookies & players in general are like dogs or puppies, when they are bad & you catch them being bad you let them have it right than & there other wise they think it's ok & will continue doing it. Discipline well after the fact doesn't work as well as dicsipline in the moment.

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02-16-2010, 10:02 PM
  #185
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Torts is known for yelling and screaming, just like guys before him. Do you think Brent Sutter wouldnt have tried to rip him a new ******* or mike keenan wouldnt have? LB just doesnt like torts and will find any excuse to bash him.

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Old
02-17-2010, 09:50 AM
  #186
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Is there any video available of the Del Zotto / Tortorella incident?

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02-17-2010, 12:48 PM
  #187
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loss

they lost the game because of the extra penalty on mdz. he got screamed at as he should and now its over. only larry brooks cares because he needs to write a column. hes an idiot.

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02-17-2010, 12:51 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Yelling should be a last resort to someone who does the right thing 99% of the time. Imagine you at work - you do everything to your bosses satisfaction, then the ONE TIME you screw up the boss berates you infront of all your coworkers. Pretty lame, and definitely not how you want to treat youth who you expect to make these mistakes at least once.

Sorry, but coaches who throw tantrums on the bench when a rookie makes a rookie mistake seems to be over the top.

Is it the most pressing issue? NO, but its yet another example, albeit smaller than last years little baby water bottle incident, that this guy flips out at the wrong time and at the wrong person.
This is professional hockey. Strap on a set. He ****ed up, got yelled at it for it as he should have because they lost the game because of it. Nashville scored in the 2nd part of the double minor.

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02-17-2010, 01:03 PM
  #189
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This is professional hockey. Strap on a set. He ****ed up, got yelled at it for it as he should have because they lost the game because of it. Nashville scored in the 2nd part of the double minor.
Did they lose because of that? Or did they lose because this rudderless team cant score goals on a consistent basis?

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02-17-2010, 01:05 PM
  #190
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waaahhh the coach yelled at a player waaahh

what a sad state of affairs it is when people complain about this. where does the coddling end?

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02-17-2010, 01:20 PM
  #191
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This is professional hockey. Strap on a set. He ****ed up, got yelled at it for it as he should have because they lost the game because of it. Nashville scored in the 2nd part of the double minor.
'Strap on a set' ? You been watchin Vin Diesel movies again?

I really don't care about Del Z's feelings, he's a big boy and at this point i'm positive this is not the first time in his playing days that he's been screamed at. Just found it a bit over the top and theatrical on Torts part.

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02-17-2010, 01:26 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
I disagree, Rookies & players in general are like dogs or puppies, when they are bad & you catch them being bad you let them have it right than & there other wise they think it's ok & will continue doing it. Discipline well after the fact doesn't work as well as dicsipline in the moment.
Interesting that you would put this in that context because you are wrong about how to discipline a dog or puppy. Yelling at them is counterproductive to training them, or people.

More importantly, Brooks is irrelevant to me. The fact is that Torts as coach is all that matters and he has proven before to be a man on the edge. He showed his inability to behave correctly in last year's playoffs and arguably cost the Rangers any chance of winning that series.

Because of this he has lost the margin of error he would normally be entitled to. Until he proves otherwise, he appears to be an out-of-control brat who lucked into a Cup victory because of superior personnel.

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02-17-2010, 02:16 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Interesting that you would put this in that context because you are wrong about how to discipline a dog or puppy. Yelling at them is counterproductive to training them, or people.

More importantly, Brooks is irrelevant to me. The fact is that Torts as coach is all that matters and he has proven before to be a man on the edge. He showed his inability to behave correctly in last year's playoffs and arguably cost the Rangers any chance of winning that series.

Because of this he has lost the margin of error he would normally be entitled to. Until he proves otherwise, he appears to be an out-of-control brat who lucked into a Cup victory because of superior personnel.
You know, I could take issue with several things you said, but to claim that anybody could "luck into" a Stanley Cup is just ludicrous. Say what you will about Torts, but don't throw dirt at winning the Cup, something the majority of NHL coaches haven't even sniffed.

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02-17-2010, 07:17 PM
  #194
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You know, I could take issue with several things you said, but to claim that anybody could "luck into" a Stanley Cup is just ludicrous. Say what you will about Torts, but don't throw dirt at winning the Cup, something the majority of NHL coaches haven't even sniffed.
Joe Girardi lucked into a World Series Championship because he had superior personnel. True or not?

The best personnel will carry a coach in any sport far more often than a coach will carry a team. Personnel wins, not coaching. Put Torts on a bad team and he loses (just like this year). Yes, there are exceptions, but very few.

Judging what I've seen of Torts here, you can't possibly argue that he didn't behave like a total idiot in last year's playoffs. You can argue whether or not he cost them but he sure didn't help them. Since the ongoing, relative stupidities of Torts and Brooks is the topic at hand, I was right on topic with my comments.

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02-17-2010, 07:49 PM
  #195
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Joe Girardi lucked into a World Series Championship because he had superior personnel. True or not?

The best personnel will carry a coach in any sport far more often than a coach will carry a team. Personnel wins, not coaching. Put Torts on a bad team and he loses (just like this year). Yes, there are exceptions, but very few.

Judging what I've seen of Torts here, you can't possibly argue that he didn't behave like a total idiot in last year's playoffs. You can argue whether or not he cost them but he sure didn't help them. Since the ongoing, relative stupidities of Torts and Brooks is the topic at hand, I was right on topic with my comments.
winning a championship isnt all about lucking into the personnel...so many thing have to go right...the Yankees had to go with a 3 man rotation, and basically no bullpen till Mariano Rivera..thats not superior personnel, that's inferior personnel. They won because of clutch hitting, and a well rested CC Sabathia and A-Rod, those were both coaching moves by Girardi.

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02-18-2010, 05:12 AM
  #196
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winning a championship isnt all about lucking into the personnel...so many thing have to go right...the Yankees had to go with a 3 man rotation, and basically no bullpen till Mariano Rivera..thats not superior personnel, that's inferior personnel. They won because of clutch hitting, and a well rested CC Sabathia and A-Rod, those were both coaching moves by Girardi.
If you believe that the Yankees don't have by far the best personnel in baseball than I suggest that you really are off base in your judgment. Torre routinely won when given Yankees personnel. He's never won anywhere else.

Your statement that the Yankees had no bullpen other than Rivera is both funny and wrong. Rivera is the greatest relief pitcher in the history of the game and is still the best. No team has all great relief pitching that leads to the 9th inning.

They buy the best players available every season. They don't get them all but they get all they can use. If the Rangers could buy Ovechkins, Crosbys and Malkins every year, they would be a Cup contender every year, too.

The Yankees won because they bought Sabathia, Burnett and Texeira last year and because of previous mega-purchases like ARod (steroid boy), not because of anything Girardi did. When you have a bunch of future hall-of-famers every year, it's almost impossible to not be in the running to win it every year. It doesn't guarantee a championship but it almost guarantees an appearance in the postseason.

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02-18-2010, 09:35 AM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Joe Girardi lucked into a World Series Championship because he had superior personnel. True or not?

The best personnel will carry a coach in any sport far more often than a coach will carry a team. Personnel wins, not coaching. Put Torts on a bad team and he loses (just like this year). Yes, there are exceptions, but very few.

Judging what I've seen of Torts here, you can't possibly argue that he didn't behave like a total idiot in last year's playoffs. You can argue whether or not he cost them but he sure didn't help them. Since the ongoing, relative stupidities of Torts and Brooks is the topic at hand, I was right on topic with my comments.
No idea, not a baseball fan.

About last year's playoffs, sure he cost the team. Did he cost them the series like some people claim? Absolutely not, if anything I think the team should have played game 6 harder for it. But he did a stupid thing and it was a distraction at the worst possible time.

I'm generally OK with it though, because we knew we were getting fire and brimstone when we hired him. He's fiery and emotional, he will push people's buttons and cross the line on occasion. But in my mind his merits outweigh his demerits, at least for this particular team.

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Old
02-18-2010, 10:15 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
Off the top of my head.....

Mike Keenan

Mike Milbury

Ken Hitchcock

Ted Nolan
and what do these 4 dinosaurs have in common?

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Old
02-18-2010, 10:51 AM
  #199
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and what do these 4 dinosaurs have in common?
they all have the letter E in their names.

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02-18-2010, 11:16 AM
  #200
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The best personnel will carry a coach in any sport far more often than a coach will carry a team. Personnel wins, not coaching. Put Torts on a bad team and he loses (just like this year). Yes, there are exceptions, but very few.

Judging what I've seen of Torts here, you can't possibly argue that he didn't behave like a total idiot in last year's playoffs. You can argue whether or not he cost them but he sure didn't help them. Since the ongoing, relative stupidities of Torts and Brooks is the topic at hand, I was right on topic with my comments.
Put any coach on a bad team and they still won't win. This is not unique to Tortorella.

And to say that he "lucked" into a Stanley Cup is pretty ridiculous. He stepped into a team that was pretty bad when he showed up in Tampa. Their supposed superior personnel was highly questionable. The fact that players like Vinny L, Boyle, St. Louis, etc. reached their potential has much to do with Torts, and I'm sure they would admit that.

No, he didn't luck into a Cup. He helped develop a cup contender, and coached them to a victory.

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