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Eklund: Johnson for Hartnell, plus Vokoun

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02-24-2010, 10:51 AM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You are now completley contradicting yourself there fella. You say we need much better goaltending, but fail to realise that teams with great goaltenders also lose the plot in the playoffs too, such as the sharks. Do you forget that Detroit won a cup with Osgood in net. A good example as any. All you need is a keeper on a hotstreak. If we entered the playoffs with leighton playing as he did from his first game here, then i would put any money on the flyers reaching the finals.

That might sound completly rediculous, but when the flyers play lights out hockey they are pretty lethal. The playoffs two years ago show how players like Briere, Timonen, Richards and Carter really pull their fingers out and play like nut cases. Hell last year we were battering the pens in the final game until the wheels fell off the wagon in the third period.

Add players like Pronger and lappy, who are give it all players, and the flyers start looking a little more scary. I can bet that no team wants to play us in the playoffs. You gotta consider that Matt Carle has now become a very competant defenseman in his own end now.
Not contradicting anything. Of course teams with great goalies lose as only 1 team wins. Osgood gets no respect which amazes me. He still needs to make the saves for his team to win did he not? Still doesnít change the fact the flyers have had substandard goaltending for years, so yes they do need much better goaltending. I donít think the sharks goalie was the main driver in them losing.
I will cover any action you want to throw down that they will not get to the cup finals with Leighton no matter how great he is playing going into the playoffs. That might be the funniest thing I have read all morning. You still donít get it. I donít want to hope they have a goalie that gets on a hot streak. I want a goalie who can shut the door when needed.
Any team when firing on all cyclinders is lethal, not just the flyers. I disagree, why would any team be scared of the flyers right now? Matt carle is avg at best in his own end, guess that equates to competent

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02-24-2010, 10:53 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
Heres the reason it doesn't make sense: the Flyers do not operate that way. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. No team that is a big market team and capable to spend and wants to win operates that way. I'm not saying they will never try to dump a salary, however they WILL NOT dump a salary during a season without plans to spend the rest of that money elsewhere. And its logical. This season having Hartnell on the roster is better than having Armstrong and a million on capspace, because capspace doesn't have value unless it is spent. The Flyers want to win and they are not rebuilding.
trading hartnell in no way shape or form means they are rebuilding. I here what your saying but sometimes the team needs to face reality and realize it isnt going to happen this year.

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02-24-2010, 10:56 AM
  #228
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Hartnell in a Vokoun swap would make me hard.

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02-24-2010, 11:13 AM
  #229
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I disagree, why would any team be scared of the flyers right now?
He hasn't said that teams should be scared of them, he said that no team wants to play them. There's a difference.

And for the reason they don't want to play us: Chris Pronger.
Or, to be more exact, Chris Pronger, the best Dman in the post-season in the last three years, added to an already talented and gritty team.


You said we need a goalie who can shut the door when needed. "when needed" could be on just every shut which is on net. There is no such goalie. Another interpretation would be "keeping your team in the game", well Ray Emery already did that a couple of years ago. Will he do it again? Nobody knows, will another goalie we can trade for do it? Nobody knows.

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02-24-2010, 11:28 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
He hasn't said that teams should be scared of them, he said that no team wants to play them. There's a difference.

And for the reason they don't want to play us: Chris Pronger.
Or, to be more exact, Chris Pronger, the best Dman in the post-season in the last three years, added to an already talented and gritty team.


You said we need a goalie who can shut the door when needed. "when needed" could be on just every shut which is on net. There is no such goalie. Another interpretation would be "keeping your team in the game", well Ray Emery already did that a couple of years ago. Will he do it again? Nobody knows, will another goalie we can trade for do it? Nobody knows.
no team wants to play the pens, caps, sabres, Ottawa orthe ďhotĒ team either. Whats your point?

You know what I mean when needed, if you donít then sorry donít know what to tell you. Your correct no one knows if another goalie will do it. However would you rather take your chances if you had, as an example miller in goal instead of emery or whoever and hoping they get hot?

Pronger can play the best he has ever played in his life and it won matter if the goalie doesnít make the saves he needs to make.

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02-24-2010, 11:31 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Hartnell in a Vokoun swap would make me hard.
Flyers would need to add a decent amount imo. Readign some reports that vokoun wont even waive his ntc. If true I want no parts of a guy like that who has a chance to help a team win a cup and doesnít want to be traded.

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02-24-2010, 11:32 AM
  #232
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Top seeds get bumped by 8th seeds all the time.
No they don't. Five of the last ten champions were #1 seeds. Three of the last ten were #2 seeds, and the remaining two were #4 seeds. The fact is the elite teams do win. It's a myth that everything gets tossed out once the playoffs begin.
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You are now completley contradicting yourself there fella. You say we need much better goaltending, but fail to realise that teams with great goaltenders also lose the plot in the playoffs too, such as the sharks. Do you forget that Detroit won a cup with Osgood in net. A good example as any. All you need is a keeper on a hotstreak. If we entered the playoffs with leighton playing as he did from his first game here, then i would put any money on the flyers reaching the finals.
You are right that great goalies fail, but the bottom line is great goaltending is consistent and you don't have to worry if they will get hot when then playoffs start. Mediocre goalies are inconsistent and you never know what you will get from them. You have to cross your fingers and hope they play above their normal levels at the right time. I'd much prefer going into playoffs knowing goaltending is not a question mark instead of hoping a career third stringer goalie can keep it together and stay hot enough throughout the playoffs. Relying on mediocre goalies is a coin flip. It's absurd that the Flyers expect to be in the hunt on a yearly basis constantly relies on a coin flip at the most important position every year. It's even crazier that fans somehow feel this is acceptable and have faith that it will somehow work when it has never worked for the Flyers.

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02-24-2010, 12:34 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
Best Goalie:Manning::Leighton:Brees is a bit much.
People probably would have said the same about Cam Ward. Then he did something silly and won the Cup. Point is, it's not only the guys you expect that win (Brodeur, Sabathia, Manning). Random guys come out of nowhere to do it too (Ward, Hamels, other Manning, Leighton?). Given the choice I want someone in that first group, but it doesn't mean the second group doesn't win in a given year.

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02-24-2010, 12:37 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Flyers would need to add a decent amount imo. Readign some reports that vokoun wont even waive his ntc. If true I want no parts of a guy like that who has a chance to help a team win a cup and doesnít want to be traded.
Maybe its loyalty to the Panthers?

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02-24-2010, 01:01 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Your correct no one knows if another goalie will do it. However would you rather take your chances if you had, as an example miller in goal instead of emery or whoever and hoping they get hot?
I think it has been mentioned several times now, if we get a guy like Miller a few other important pieces of this team have to go the other way and there's exactly where philosophy come into place. It's stacked team with average goaltending versus great goaltending with average team. I think we can just agree to disagree on this philosophy point.
Adding as a sidenote: Goaltenders like Miller aren't available very often and hit the FA market even more rarely. So you probably have the best chance at one by drafting one, that includes getting very very lucky at it.


Dan Ellis probably just became available, a pretty darn good goaltender.

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02-24-2010, 01:26 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Spongolium
You are now completley contradicting yourself there fella. You say we need much better goaltending, but fail to realise that teams with great goaltenders also lose the plot in the playoffs too, such as the sharks. Do you forget that Detroit won a cup with Osgood in net. A good example as any. All you need is a keeper on a hotstreak. If we entered the playoffs with leighton playing as he did from his first game here, then i would put any money on the flyers reaching the finals.
Osgood is much better than anyone we've entrusted the Flyers' nets to in the last decade or two.

That man does not get the respect he deserves.

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02-24-2010, 01:34 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Osgood is much better than anyone we've entrusted the Flyers' nets to in the last decade or two.

That man does not get the respect he deserves.
not even close does he get the respect.

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02-24-2010, 01:36 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
I think it has been mentioned several times now, if we get a guy like Miller a few other important pieces of this team have to go the other way and there's exactly where philosophy come into place. It's stacked team with average goaltending versus great goaltending with average team. I think we can just agree to disagree on this philosophy point.
Adding as a sidenote: Goaltenders like Miller aren't available very often and hit the FA market even more rarely. So you probably have the best chance at one by drafting one, that includes getting very very lucky at it.


Dan Ellis probably just became available, a pretty darn good goaltender.

That philosophy hasnít worked. I used miller as an example as he popped into my head first. So if you have to trade Carter, another example, to get a mille r you do it. To me that is not a hard concept to philosophy to want to follow. Build from the net out. For arguments sake swap those 2 players on the flyers and I like their chances very much to get to the finals.

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02-24-2010, 01:50 PM
  #239
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my brain hurts after reading some of the posts in this thread

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02-24-2010, 02:12 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Flyers would need to add a decent amount imo. Readign some reports that vokoun wont even waive his ntc. If true I want no parts of a guy like that who has a chance to help a team win a cup and doesnít want to be traded.
Reports recently indicate the opposite. Vokoun likely to waive if asked after being told Florida wants to blow it up.

I have no clue where you got your info about him refusing to waive. That's speculation.

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Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
Maybe its loyalty to the Panthers?
yeah ..... I doubt it

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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
not even close does he get the respect.
Osgood is a playoff kinda guy, he performs well in that situation

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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
my brain hurts after reading some of the posts in this thread
agreed

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02-24-2010, 02:38 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
No they don't. Five of the last ten champions were #1 seeds. Three of the last ten were #2 seeds, and the remaining two were #4 seeds. The fact is the elite teams do win. It's a myth that everything gets tossed out once the playoffs begin.
I didn't say that #8 seeds win the cup all the time, I said #8 seeds bump top seeds all the time. That happens.

2009: #8 Anaheim upsets #1 Detroit
2006: #8 Edmonton upsets #1 Detroit
2002: #8 Montreal upsets #1 Boston
2000: #8 San Jose upsets #1 St. Louis

Four out of the last ten years the number eight team has beaten the number one seed and I don't feel like going back and looking again but I'm pretty sure #7's beat #2's every year in the last ten. So it does happen. It doesn't mean those numbers 8's won it all, but it doesn't mean it is impossible.

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02-24-2010, 02:49 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Libertine
No they don't. Five of the last ten champions were #1 seeds. Three of the last ten were #2 seeds, and the remaining two were #4 seeds. The fact is the elite teams do win. It's a myth that everything gets tossed out once the playoffs begin.
#3 seeds suck. This is irrefutable mathematical proof that there are only 2 good divisions per conference, and always one bad one.

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02-24-2010, 10:20 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I didn't say that #8 seeds win the cup all the time, I said #8 seeds bump top seeds all the time. That happens.

2009: #8 Anaheim upsets #1 Detroit
2006: #8 Edmonton upsets #1 Detroit
2002: #8 Montreal upsets #1 Boston
2000: #8 San Jose upsets #1 St. Louis

Four out of the last ten years the number eight team has beaten the number one seed and I don't feel like going back and looking again but I'm pretty sure #7's beat #2's every year in the last ten. So it does happen. It doesn't mean those numbers 8's won it all, but it doesn't mean it is impossible.
4/20 is 20% so if you go into the playoffs in 8th seed you have a 20% chance of winning...no one said its impossible to upset teams, but the bottom line is you would rather be #1 than #8 if the flyers move hartnell they arent going to hurt their chances by more than 5% they will however increase their chances for next year by much more than that.

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02-24-2010, 10:30 PM
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I didn't say that #8 seeds win the cup all the time, I said #8 seeds bump top seeds all the time. That happens.

2009: #8 Anaheim upsets #1 Detroit
2006: #8 Edmonton upsets #1 Detroit
2002: #8 Montreal upsets #1 Boston
2000: #8 San Jose upsets #1 St. Louis

Four out of the last ten years the number eight team has beaten the number one seed and I don't feel like going back and looking again but I'm pretty sure #7's beat #2's every year in the last ten. So it does happen. It doesn't mean those numbers 8's won it all, but it doesn't mean it is impossible.
So #8 seeds have a 20% chance of beating a #1 seed, and then what maybe a 30% chance of beating a #2 seed in the next round and then they have 2 more round to get by before winning it all.

Id much rather have the 80% chance of winning in the first round and 70% chance in the 2nd round and then deal with the odds of the conference finals and Cup finals odds after that.

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