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Old
02-15-2010, 06:44 AM
  #26
Emptyvoid
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Based exactly on this criteria, these are my grades.

Lundqvist- C

Gaborik- C
Prospal- A+
Dubinsky-B-
Callahan-B
Ansimov-B-
Christensen-B
Avery-C
Lisin-C-
Boyle-C
Voros-D+
Drury-F (I don't like giving him an F, but for 7 million dollars...I gotta)

Girardi-B-
Staal-B+ (ELC ftw)
Redden-F
Rosival-C-
MDZ-A- (Just gotta work on defense bud)
Gilroy-B-

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Old
02-15-2010, 06:52 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by AOWRanger View Post
I'm not defending redden in any way but even at this rate he'd still get 2-2.5 mill on the market IMO.

As for gaborik this season, I just don't see how you don't give him an A+.He literally carries this team on his back and i'm surprised he isin't injured with a sore back already.He broke his career high PPG goals with 13 and if he keeps scoring he'll have a career year in goals aswell.
I don't think a #6 defenseman earns 2 - 2.5 mil. Maybe last season's performance was worth 2.5 mil, NOT this season's. He's on track for a 13 point season and is brutal in his own zone. that is HALF of last year's production. those kinds of #s are acceptable for a stay at home crease clearing defenseman, not for an offensive defenseman who's lacking at home.

But if you look at gaborik's stats versus his pay, for a 7.5 million $ forward you're probably expecting close to what his actual production is.

Like for prospal, he's playing like a 3 million $ guy for a 1 million contract

Gaborik's playing like a 9 million $ guy for a 7.5 mil contract

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02-15-2010, 07:08 AM
  #28
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With respect to F2d fair value or better than fair value for me is giving a guy an A.

A's--Gaborik, Lundqvist, Prospal, MDZ, Staal.

B's-B+'s-Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov, Jokinen (so far), Prust, Johnson.

C's-C+'s--Avery, Girardi, Gilroy, Christensen, Voros, Boyle.

D-Rozsival, Drury (I can see the argument that he isn't useless but that contract for what he brings overall is just horrible), Lisin (just not doing enough to stay in the lineup).

F-Redden, Brashear.

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Old
02-15-2010, 07:57 AM
  #29
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I like that some of you guys were able to actually follow the point of this thread and attempt to judge production vs. pay. It makes it pretty difficult to wade through a thread if everyone is trying to rewrite the OP's rules in their own idiom every other post.

As for grades, if you pay a guy to be elite and he plays elite, then according to this thread's OP that's a "C". If you pay elite and he plays Drury or Redden, that's below a "C". How far below is up to you.

Anyway , I pretty much agree with RussianRangersFan and his grades. I would give Voros more benefit of the doubt and give him a C. Gilroy would get a C-, because of cost/early hype vs. performance. Christensen might get a B+ because he's making just $750 and centering our first line pretty well.

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Old
02-15-2010, 08:52 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f2d View Post
I don't think a #6 defenseman earns 2 - 2.5 mil. Maybe last season's performance was worth 2.5 mil, NOT this season's. He's on track for a 13 point season and is brutal in his own zone. that is HALF of last year's production. those kinds of #s are acceptable for a stay at home crease clearing defenseman, not for an offensive defenseman who's lacking at home.

But if you look at gaborik's stats versus his pay, for a 7.5 million $ forward you're probably expecting close to what his actual production is.

Like for prospal, he's playing like a 3 million $ guy for a 1 million contract

Gaborik's playing like a 9 million $ guy for a 7.5 mil contract
Prospal is most certainly playing more than a $3million guy. $5mill worth from what i've seen this season if he keeps this up throughout the season.

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Old
02-15-2010, 09:57 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AOWRanger View Post
Prospal is most certainly playing more than a $3million guy. $5mill worth from what i've seen this season if he keeps this up throughout the season.
I dont think he is playing at Savard value. Maybe Antropov value, maybe. i dont think 3 mil is outlandish for him to accept, especially when he is getting over a million a year from Tampa Bay.

He's had success here and gets to play with a franchise winger, why would he want to go elsewhere?

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Old
02-15-2010, 09:58 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Staal - B-, Doesn't play nearly as physical as he should in front of the nets. A solid #2 defenceman that could be a great #2 (not enough offence to be considered a legit #1) A keeper.
I used to think that too, but now I know I was wrong. Staal is not a flashy offensive d-man, but his only real problem is that he can't (at least now) QB our PP - frankly, I don't mind at all, becasu we have a great QB on the team.

And since he doenst play on PP, it's unair to compare him to d-men who get a lot of point there. Therefore, we should compare them on the basis of ES points. And in this stat (surprise surprise!) he's tied for 5th or 6th in the league!!!

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02-15-2010, 10:32 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianRangersFan View Post
Based exactly on this criteria, these are my grades.

Lundqvist- C

Gaborik- C
Prospal- A+
Dubinsky-B-
Callahan-B
Ansimov-B-
Christensen-B
Avery-C
Lisin-C-
Boyle-C
Voros-D+
Drury-F (I don't like giving him an F, but for 7 million dollars...I gotta)

Girardi-B-
Staal-B+ (ELC ftw)
Redden-F
Rosival-C-
MDZ-A- (Just gotta work on defense bud)
Gilroy-B-
Good god, someone who actually understands the point of the thread!

I agree with almost all of these, but here's what I would change:
Avery -- C-
Voros -- C-
Girardi -- C
Roszival -- D+
Gilroy -- C (remember, he's making nearly $2 mil)

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Old
02-15-2010, 10:44 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Lundqvist - A, He's given up some real softies, but is still the best player we have?

Gaborik - A+, Everything we expected and more

DZ - A, Surprising ability for a 19 year old. Still impressed with him.

Prospal - A+, In an on year, this is what Prospal can do. Don't expect it next year.

Dubinsky - C+, A decent player that need smore hockey sense. Shows flashes, but not on a regular enough basis.

Callahan - C+, A solid 2-way winger that likes to initiate contact. Solid all over the ice, could be better offensively.

Avery - D+, Seems to have been neutered and it seems ot have taken away his ability to play well offensively. That said, he's a 3rd/2nd liner and playing with
Anisimov and Prust is about right.

Voros - C, Tries and gives an honest effort. Talent is just not there. Not his fault some schmuck offered him a mil a year.

Drury - C, No longer the offensive player he was, but has some redeeming qualities.

Redden - D-, I give him alot of crap, but he has played better this season defensively. No longer a factor on offenise at all.

Rosival - C-, Another player I crap on and for good reason most of the time. Has been pretty steady, needs to stay away from clearing up the middle of the ice.

Staal - B-, Doesn't play nearly as physical as he should in front of the nets. A solid #2 defenceman that could be a great #2 (not enough offence to be considered a legit #1) A keeper.

Girardi - D-, Has played well, but anyone that allows his teams bets player to get pounded by the opposing teams goon is dog-crap and needs to be moved. No respect for this player. None at all.

Gilroy - C+, Offence isn't there, but he's been working on his defence.

Boyle - D, Plays like he's 6 inches shorter and 20 pounds lighter. Very odd.

Lisin - C, no better or worse than Korpedo. Would rather have kept Lauri for the defence that he provides.

Anisimov - B, Having a nice rookie season. Very responsible defensively and has been showing flashes of what made him a border line 1st rounder. A regular shift with better offensive players is going to allow him to develope that aspect of his game. As it is, we are seeing him make some very impressive plays now. A future 2nd line center.

Johnson - B, so far so good for a rookie backup
you mean this korpedo ?? the defensive specialist ??

52 4 3 7 -12

and thats on a pretty good yotes team, imagine what he would be on the rangers this season ??

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Old
02-15-2010, 10:52 AM
  #35
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Lundqvist - B, mainly because he hasnt been lights out. Still fantastic though.
Gaborik - A, he is better than I remember watching from his Minny days.
DZ - A, Cant expect much more from a teenager
Prospal - A, didnt think he had this much left in his tank. Love his personality also.
Dubinsky - C, hasnt progressed as far as I thought he would. Inconsistent.
Callahan - B, Good solid player
Avery - C-, Looks less effective this year than in previous years. Looks tame.
Voros - D, Good attitude, bad player, weak fighter
Drury - D, totally overpaid but his work ethic on the PK is awesome.
Redden - F-, Totally overpaid, tries hard but is just flat out below average.
Rosival - D, Overpaid, solid defensively lately. Bad offense for an offesnive defensemen
Staal - B-, was sloppy early in the year but is so solid on defense and is finding his offense slowly.
Girardi - C, Solid just solid.
Gilroy - C, solid for an offensive D-Man rookie. Next year is crucial for him.
Boyle - C, making up the numbers
Lisin - C, tries hard.
Anisimov - C, tries hard. Very raw, he needs 15 lbs of muscle and a mean streak personality.
Johnson - B, so far so good for a rookie backup

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Old
02-15-2010, 02:00 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AOWRanger View Post
Prospal is most certainly playing more than a $3million guy. $5mill worth from what i've seen this season if he keeps this up throughout the season.
I'd agree with you if most of his points weren't because of gaborik. He's a 20 goal a year guy and his assists are greatly inflated by gaborik goals.

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Old
02-15-2010, 02:03 PM
  #37
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I think this thread should be stickied to the main board to serve as an example to posters of what NOT TO DO in regards to reading comprehension...


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Old
02-15-2010, 05:10 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogie View Post
i find it strange that Girardi who makes 1.5 million earns a C and a D. While Rozy who earns 4million gets a B- and a C+.

Girardi minus 8, 5 goals, 10 assists, 44 penalty minutes
Rozsival minus 3, 1 goal, 15 assists, 58 penalty minutes

take away the plus/minus and you have basically the same player and Giriardi is 2.5 million dollars cheaper.. oh wait i know it's because Girardi didn't jump in and save Gaborik when Carcillo fought him.
Girardi is so overrated. He's put on a pedestal by some because of who's on our blueline. The only time he's really effective is when he's with Staal. Coincidence? Marc's our best. DG has been inconsistent. There are times where he's good and actually plays the man and others where he's soft as Carvel. He also is one of the worst passers on the team. Some of his giveaways are brutal. They should've beaten Pitt in regulation. It's weird cause he can sometimes be strong on the puck and is capable but also makes poor choices that leave you scratching your head. Carcillo chaos aside, is he really worth $3 M? That's what he'll likely ask for. On a good team, he's a 4-5.

Regarding Rozsival, he's played better since Torts' Islander tirade. He's been stronger on the puck and making better decisions. For all the criticism, he's one of the better outlet passers on our team who can find the seam for breakaways. Also very good at blocking shots and takeaways. For a guy who doesn't like to be hit which has always been the biggest problem in our section, he takes a lot of punishment and usually returns. When he's not assertive, that's when he can be forced into mistakes. Lately, that hasn't been the case. It's hard to see that cap hit (5 M) attracting many but he's increased his value. He's more proven than Girardi and a better player. But that salary is a huge problem. You can thank the genius.

If I were to grade, they'd both wind up with C's.

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Old
02-15-2010, 05:26 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
you mean this korpedo ?? the defensive specialist ??

52 4 3 7 -12

and thats on a pretty good yotes team, imagine what he would be on the rangers this season ??
One player is trusted enough by his coach to get real ice-time and be given actual OT shifts and a place in the skill comp. The other has fallen out of favor for much lesser talented energy guys. In theory, the stats make your argument stronger than it really is.
Think about it. They gave up a 3rd round pick for Brian freaking Boyle, who aside from his PK work is garbage. He has no skill and can't skate to save his life. He also doesn't use his size enough. They wasted a pick instead of just keeping a younger, faster and more versatile Korpikoski who could fill the fourth line/PK role or shift to wing on the third line if needed. They traded a better overall player due to untapped potential. Yet Lisin doesn't play because he's Marcel Lite.

It's one thing for our coach to push out Betts and Orr for Huggy Bear but when the other choices don't work, it really leaves you wondering wtf the plan is. All they ever do is hype these prospects to death and talk about patience, which is such a lie. When does this organization ever back it up? Save me the talk about Dubi and Cally who are the only ones who've been given the opportunity up front. Dawes got 13 months. Korp who they loved got one season. And Prucha was Renney'd. For all the Renney apologists, he's doing just fine in The Desert playing on a key all Czech energy line on a low scoring team that's overachieving. Hope he recovers from the Neal cheapshot. How soon before they sour on Anisimov and trade him? Is Grachev going to also be given up on due to a tough 1st pro year? They've done this stuff for too long. Lundmark, Balej, Garth Murray, Brendl...

Korp's lucky he got out of here.

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Old
02-16-2010, 02:11 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Kovy274Hart View Post
Girardi is so overrated. He's put on a pedestal by some because of who's on our blueline. The only time he's really effective is when he's with Staal. Coincidence? Marc's our best. DG has been inconsistent. There are times where he's good and actually plays the man and others where he's soft as Carvel. He also is one of the worst passers on the team. Some of his giveaways are brutal. They should've beaten Pitt in regulation. It's weird cause he can sometimes be strong on the puck and is capable but also makes poor choices that leave you scratching your head. Carcillo chaos aside, is he really worth $3 M? That's what he'll likely ask for. On a good team, he's a 4-5.

Regarding Rozsival, he's played better since Torts' Islander tirade. He's been stronger on the puck and making better decisions. For all the criticism, he's one of the better outlet passers on our team who can find the seam for breakaways. Also very good at blocking shots and takeaways. For a guy who doesn't like to be hit which has always been the biggest problem in our section, he takes a lot of punishment and usually returns. When he's not assertive, that's when he can be forced into mistakes. Lately, that hasn't been the case. It's hard to see that cap hit (5 M) attracting many but he's increased his value. He's more proven than Girardi and a better player. But that salary is a huge problem. You can thank the genius.

If I were to grade, they'd both wind up with C's.
You'd give rozy a C? So you think he's worth 5 million?

At best he's worth 3 - 4 million

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Old
02-16-2010, 06:27 AM
  #41
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You'd give rozy a C? So you think he's worth 5 million?

At best he's worth 3 - 4 million
At best he was worth $3-4 mil when he signed his contract. He isn't worth even that now. The Rozsival who signed then was in the neighborhood of 40 points several years in a row. This Rozsival might not hit 20 and for the money he's getting he's got to be a lot better defensively than he is to make up for it--or at least have some physical presence. Girardi's contract at least in the neighborhood of a decent value considering he's getting top 4 minutes night in and night out.

It seems as if this argument comes up often enough lately but truthfully money aside Rozsival and Girardi are about equal as players. Girardi a bit younger and a little more inclined (not much) towards playing physical and Rozsival maybe just a little bit slicker with his passing. We're paying one around $5 mil and the other around $2.5 mil and getting about the same result from both.

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Old
02-16-2010, 08:43 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
... but truthfully money aside Rozsival and Girardi are about equal as players.
C'mon. Really? When Rozy is on he blows Girardi away. Otherwise both are equally ham-handed.

I've found it pretty easy to forget Rozy's clumsiness and dim-wittedness during his recent revival. When he plays like he did Sunday, I'm a Rozy fan.

Still think he makes too much though. But not so much that it's absolutely crazy like some other defenders... Rozy is definitely a C- guy.

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Old
02-16-2010, 09:38 AM
  #43
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Drury - D, overpaid, but is not a worthless player
Rosival - D, overpaid, but again, not a worthless player
These need to be C's. Drury is doing so much other than scoring. Hockey is not just about Goals and Assists. And Rosival is our backbone to our Defense along with Staal. Maaayyybbbeeee over paid by a Mil or so... but you know what... hes been with this team longer than anyone and think he deserves some recognition for his hard work.

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02-16-2010, 09:50 AM
  #44
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If, according to you, most of the players get what they deserve, how come the Rangers is below average team?

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02-16-2010, 10:59 AM
  #45
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Lundqvist - A+. He is expensive. However he is a difference maker. He wins games by himself.
Gaborik - A. I would have said A+ a while ago, but im settling with A. He has regressed slightly since before christmas. He is healthy and very dangerous in the offensive zone. Needs a true number one center to play with.
MDZ - A+ huge surprise. Needs work on D. 19 year old PP QB. This kid is the real deal.
Prospal - A. Lots of effort and heart. Cheap. Is a little streaky. Worth every penny though.
Dubinsky - B+. Has lots of promise, but is streaky. I think he will turn out to be a good 2nd line center.
Callahan - B. Lots of effort and heart. Inconsistent.
Avery - C+. Is arguably the best agitator in the game. Gets under peoples skin. Very effective when not on a leash. Can put up okay numbers. Little to expensive for what he brings.
Voros - D+. Lots of heart. Wish he was a better fighter. Gets paid 1 mill to get beat up. Brings little or nothing besides sticking up for teammates.
Christensen - B-. Nice hands! Inconsistent but shows he can play when on his game.
Drury - E+. Horrible contract. This guy has been a huge dissappointment across the board. I dont even believe he is a good leader. Captain clutch is not clutch no more.
Redden - F. Worst contract in Rangers history. Is paid to be an elite, but is so far away from that as they come.
Rosival - B. Is expensive but very underrated. The boobirds prove their idiotism by booing this guy. Tough start, but is very important to our D right now.
Staal - A. Entry level deal. Solid solid defenceman. has all the tools to be an elite shut down D-man.
Girardi - C+. Very inconsistent. Can be solid when on his game. Slightly expensive for what he brings.
Gilroy - D-. Over hyped guy coming off hobey baker season. Was good in the pre season and early on in the reg.season. Been dissappointing since then. Hopefully will be better next year with more experience.
Boyle - C. Betts over Boyle by a mile on the 4th line. He gets a pass, but needs to use his size to his advantage.
Lisin - C. Lots of effort, great speed. Dissapointing stats.
Anisimov - B-. Will be a good second line center. Obvious that needs more development.
Johnson - B+. No expectations however great in the preseason. Gets a pass.

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02-16-2010, 11:07 AM
  #46
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Anything less than a B for Lundqvist and Gaborik is pretty crazy. I mean look at the players that they have to play with. If Gaborik had the players that Ovechkin and Crosby have, he would be number 1 in goals and points.

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02-16-2010, 11:26 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by BobSantos View Post
C'mon. Really? When Rozy is on he blows Girardi away. Otherwise both are equally ham-handed.

I've found it pretty easy to forget Rozy's clumsiness and dim-wittedness during his recent revival. When he plays like he did Sunday, I'm a Rozy fan.

Still think he makes too much though. But not so much that it's absolutely crazy like some other defenders... Rozy is definitely a C- guy.
You're entitled to your opinion but sorry Bob my own is they are about equal. In any case--what they're making for salary is not equal. Rozsival is supposed to be a point producer from the back line--that's why he got the big raise. He's not living up to expectations. Whatever expectations should be for Girardi is another matter but general consensus here would have him as a 5-6 and not a top 4. Only problem is we have two rookies and an even more expensive d-man Redden who can't live up to expectations either.

As for the comment further on by another poster that Rozsival is the mainstay of our defense is almost laughable. This team is going to struggle to make the playoffs-- it's a big if at the moment in great part because of lowered expectations of some of our biggest moneymakers. A highly paid player being called a mainstay on what looks to me to be a mediocre defensive corps on a team which may be going nowhere is a kind of damning praise in my book. It's the young guys like Staal and MDZ that are the real future of our defense.

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02-16-2010, 01:49 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f2d View Post
You'd give rozy a C? So you think he's worth 5 million?

At best he's worth 3 - 4 million
If I thought he was worth it, I'd give him an A. Obviously, he's grossly overpaid. That falls on the genius who also handed out the worst contract ever screwing up our cap. Had they signed only one, it wouldn't have been that bad. While it's true Rozy should be putting up more points (confidence), his play has steadied. The first two months, he was an F. By January, it was a D. Now, it's between C and D. If we were grading Girardi, he started with an F, then gradually improved all the way to C+/B-. Since, he's regressed and could be classified the same as Rozsival, who's been more reliable recently. The biggest thing with him is confidence. He's been more involved in all aspects since Tort's tirade where as Girardi has been baffling. That's why I want to trade him. He will not be worth his next salary which can be filled by a better FA.

If we're grading the rest, this is how it would look:

Gaborik A
Lundqvist B+ (consistency keeps him from A)
Prospal B+
Del Zotto B+
Callahan B
Staal B
Christensen B- (if he scored more it'd be higher)
Dubinsky B- (untapped potential)
Avery C/C+
Anisimov C (must shoot more/consistency)
Voros C (great team player provides character)
Gilroy C/C- (great wheels/a work in progress)
Drury C/C- (looked better lately/must continue)
Boyle C/C- (solid PKer but needs to use size more)
Lisin D (Marcel Lite)
Redden F
Brashear F

The following are incomplete due to not enough GP:

Jokinen
Prust
Shelley
Ocho Cinco
Heineken
Potter
Byers
Sangs
Parenteau

Former players:

Higgins C/C- (strong work ethic/no finish)
Ally D (disappeared after good start)

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02-16-2010, 03:29 PM
  #49
Cermi
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Originally Posted by Kovy274Hart View Post
Prospal B+
You realize that salary matters in this one? And that Prospal is playing for 1.1 Million!! Except fo the ELC it is definitely one of the top 10 contracts in the league point/salary wise!

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Old
02-16-2010, 04:12 PM
  #50
clmetsfan
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Originally Posted by Abooch68 View Post
Anything less than a B for Lundqvist and Gaborik is pretty crazy. I mean look at the players that they have to play with. If Gaborik had the players that Ovechkin and Crosby have, he would be number 1 in goals and points.
But again, the point of the thread is to grade players based on what they’re being paid to do. As the OP said, if a player has met expectations then he gets a C. Lundqvist is the highest paid goalie in the league, but it’s a tough case to make that he’s been the best goalie in the league.

Same deal with Gaborik. When you make $7.5 million per year, you’re supposed to produce the way that Gaborik has. Now, if you want to make the case that those two have marginally exceeded expectations then that’s fine, but at the end of the day, just about no player in the league who makes what they make could receive anything above a B.

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