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02-25-2010, 12:15 PM
  #376
Jaromir Jagr
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Yeah, but at some point, you have to realize that your team has won one cup in 70 years. Not one cup in 16 years. You can't play season-to-season based on expectations as an overall club, always digging into free agency and never consistentely producing players with results and more importantly, team standings that show results.

A team like the New Jersey Devils is a prime example, not often dipping into free agency for huge team impacts, developing a core, developing a style, and even within all the coaching changes and what not, still find ways to regular season (and sometimes playoff) success.

Rangers front office needs to tank a season, whether some fans oppose or not, so that a few years down the road we can look back and say, "well, that was a turning point".

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02-25-2010, 12:42 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by DelZottoFutureNorris View Post
Maybe the biggest difference between our lines of thinking is that I really don't think Girardi's going to get much of a raise at all, and maybe you do?

I agree that he's been asked to play above his ability (more minutes, more responsibility), but as our team grows, I think keeping Girardi (at the deservedly affordable pricetag I think he'll get on his next contract) will be an asset for us. I want him to play no higher than the #4 spot, and I think with Staal and Del Zotto taking up 2 of the top 3 spots, that's certainly possible next year.

You can't undervalue the fact that Girardi's been with the team for a few years now (and in my opinion, been solid). You can't keep having such a huge overturn every year bringing in new faces who have no established loyalty the NYR logo / franchise / fans / city. I don't think Girardi is part of the problem, and if put in the role he's best suited for, I think he can be part of the long-term solution. You may disagree with me on that, and that's fine. I guess I'm also banking on the hope that this will be Redden's last season as a Ranger (either getting burried in Hartford or Glen hypnotizing another GM into taking him). If Girardi doesn't get moved at the deadline, I guess we'll have to wait and see how these other pieces fall into or out of place.

A couple of years ago, Tyutin and Girardi were among our BEST defensemen. Then we traded Tyutin and he's blossomed into not only Columbus' best overall d-man but an important part of their powerplay. A few years ago, getting the puck through to the net was one of Girardi's strengths. This year, he's been miserable at it. I think he's just been half-a-second slow/late. He's hesitating. The entire time sans Gaborik has been guilty of falling victim to hesitation this year. When they think less and just play hard, definitive hockey, it looks like a much different team. My point is that he's a well-rounded player and he knows his teammates, the coaches, the system, the city, and the franchise. If he isn't overused (often on the FIRST PAIR because of how desperately lacking of depth we are on defense), and he doesn't command much of a raise, he can be a very valuable asset. KEEP GIRARDI.

Note: With all this said, of course I'd move him in the RIGHT deal (presumably a bigger package in which he's not the centerpiece), but I'd be okay with moving anyone on this team in the RIGHT deal except Gaborik, Lundqvist, Staal, and DZ. I'm tempted to put Callahan in that group as well because I really think he is immeasurably valuable to this team, but assuming he was the breaking point in a bigger deal for a truly elite talent that could transform our team and didn't have a ridiculous contract, I'd certainly have to think about it. You can replace his "energy" but it isn't as easy to replace his consistency, heart, and non-stop work-ethic. He can take over a shift ala Ovechkin. Completely different players and Callahan's skill level and ability is not even in the same UNIVERSE, but nonetheless, I've seen Callahan dominate an entire minute+ long shift in a very similar way (not with the same lethal offensive chances, but still having the same positive effect by playing die-hard defense and then taking the puck all the way to the opposing net after PKing for 45 seconds) ... and he seems to very rarely run out of energy. He has such a positive impact on this team and is such a role model for the younger players, that I'd really prefer to keep him unless it was an offer that we could not refuse.
id like to start off by saying i was floored that you responded to me with a very well thought out and reasonable opinion, argument, and response....thats very hard to find these days

to your points, we're really aren't that far off, you just tihnk he's a little better than i think he is, and you think he'll get a little less money than i do.

in the end of the day i think we both agree that neither trading nor keeping girardi will make or break this team

i wuoldn't mind keeping him around, but at the same time if someone if a team offers a 1st + a prospect/decent young player for Girardi + Prospal/Jokinen im all over it

i guess we'll see what happens

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02-25-2010, 01:39 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
id like to start off by saying i was floored that you responded to me with a very well thought out and reasonable opinion, argument, and response....thats very hard to find these days

to your points, we're really aren't that far off, you just tihnk he's a little better than i think he is, and you think he'll get a little less money than i do.

in the end of the day i think we both agree that neither trading nor keeping girardi will make or break this team

i wuoldn't mind keeping him around, but at the same time if someone if a team offers a 1st + a prospect/decent young player for Girardi + Prospal/Jokinen im all over it

i guess we'll see what happens
Agreed. Back at ya.

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02-25-2010, 01:45 PM
  #379
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Man who cares at this point if he held out? Guys our third leading scorer at 1.85 mil, damn, give it a rest.
The hold out was over MONEY. Its an issue that will likely arise again. That's to be considered.

He's 3rd in points on a team where no one but Gabby is consistent.

How many of Dubis points come when he's on Gabbys line? How many does he add off a secondary line?

Is he doing something another average player couldn't do for 1.5 mill?

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02-25-2010, 02:31 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
The hold out was over MONEY. Its an issue that will likely arise again. That's to be considered.

He's 3rd in points on a team where no one but Gabby is consistent.

How many of Dubis points come when he's on Gabbys line? How many does he add off a secondary line?

Is he doing something another average player couldn't do for 1.5 mill?
Lotta good points in there... but at the same time... none of us (probably including Sather/Torts) knows what he IS for sure.

In my opinion it's too soon to tell. His situation is that he's shown some signs of good things both with great players (Gabby/Jagr) and without.

He very well could be an average player... or he could be one of those guys you kick yourself for giving up on too soon and dealing.

Tough call... I'd like to keep him and see. Just me tho.

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02-25-2010, 02:37 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
The hold out was over MONEY. Its an issue that will likely arise again. That's to be considered.

He's 3rd in points on a team where no one but Gabby is consistent.

How many of Dubis points come when he's on Gabbys line? How many does he add off a secondary line?

Is he doing something another average player couldn't do for 1.5 mill?
Other centers in this league making around $1.5 million include Jay McClement, Jason Williams, and Brendan Morrison. I'd take Dubi over them any day of the week.

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02-25-2010, 02:42 PM
  #382
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If by... "Sather will look to improve Rangers at deadline" he means making a push for the cup this yr... then he's nuts.

There are ways of improving NYR at the dealine that don't involve selling the future or trying us into yet another horrible contract.

I doubt that what he has in mind tho sadly.

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02-25-2010, 02:56 PM
  #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
The hold out was over MONEY. Its an issue that will likely arise again. That's to be considered.

He's 3rd in points on a team where no one but Gabby is consistent.

How many of Dubis points come when he's on Gabbys line? How many does he add off a secondary line?

Is he doing something another average player couldn't do for 1.5 mill?
of Dubinsky's 31 points, Gaborik had a hand in 13. If someone wants to go count up how many times Gabs was on the ice for a Dubinsky point, go for it, I'm too lazy...but I'm not buying that his scoring is dependent on Gaborik.

As far as what centers make relative to Dubinsky, take a look at the following list and draw your own conclusions:


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02-25-2010, 03:07 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
The hold out was over MONEY. Its an issue that will likely arise again. That's to be considered.
Players negotiating for more money is pretty common is sports, nowadays. It's just a game that's played between agents and GM's. Messier left for Vancouver because they offered him a heftier contract. Yet nobody here will ever question his loyalty.



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He's 3rd in points on a team where no one but Gabby is consistent.
The fact that Dubinsky is 3rd on this team in points, with less games played than most of his peers speaks volumes about the kid. He's clearly showing progress, and developing more offensively which is all we can hope out of him since he's shown to be a pretty good player in most other aspects of the game (like defense, physical play, etc)



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How many of Dubis points come when he's on Gabbys line? How many does he add off a secondary line?

Gaborik makes a waiver pick-up like EC look like a legit NHL hockey player. I'd imagine Dubinsky produces more with Gabs than without him.

You have guys like Enver Lisin though, who couldn't produce consistently even when they were with Gabs. And Prospal, who's been better than most expected, isn't exactly playing great hockey when he's not paired up with Gabs.

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Is he doing something another average player couldn't do for 1.5 mill?
Look at what Drury is doing for 7M. Look at what Kotalik did for 3M. Or Brashear for 1.4M. Voros for 1M. Higgins for 2M'ish.

I have no problems with Dubinsky's production this season. But I'm also not too concerned with his production either. Even if Dubi's stats took a step back, or hovered around 40-points, I don't think that's the big issue with this kid.

What matters to me, is, how is he progressing in other areas of the game. As a center, has he improved on draws? Is he winning or losing battles in the corners and along the boards? How has he played in the nuetral zone? Or his own zone? Does he block shots or get out of the way? I'm more interested in the little things right now. I don't think Dubinsky's prime will come until his mid-late 20's, when he's at his physical peak. That's when his skating, forechecking, and intensity will be at its highest.

As long as he's developing, which he has imo, I think we should do everything we can to keep him around.

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02-25-2010, 03:25 PM
  #385
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What matters to me, is, how is he progressing in other areas of the game. As a center, has he improved on draws? Is he winning or losing battles in the corners and along the boards? How has he played in the nuetral zone? Or his own zone? Does he block shots or get out of the way? I'm more interested in the little things right now. I don't think Dubinsky's prime will come until his mid-late 20's, when he's at his physical peak. That's when his skating, forechecking, and intensity will be at its highest.

As long as he's developing, which he has imo, I think we should do everything we can to keep him around.
Great points. I have to agree completely. I think he realizes that his game depends on him being physical, strong on the puck, and doing the little things. The key for him will be to not stray from that as the rest of his game fills out. And I especially agree with the point about him not hitting his prime until his mid-late twenties. Although, (and the same goes for every player not named Lundqvist, Staal, Gaborik, or DZ) I'd still move him in the right deal, and I'm assuming you would as well.

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02-25-2010, 03:38 PM
  #386
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You'd trade Girardi because he's a) inconsistent, b) will demand more money than he's worth, c) a ufa at season's end, d) possesses some trade value due to his age and somewhat decent goal totals last season, e) we have a stocked d corps.

what exactly is this stocked d corps you speak of? The same guys who cant replace a lineup of bafoons currently playing with "the big club"? heikenen will walk at the end of the year, potter?....Sangs is probobly the only real potential nhl'er for the near future. How does trading away girardi for a pick that will probobly never get past hartford make any sense? Girardi as a 2nd line dman (tops) is about as good as you could ask for assuming he doesnt command redden/retarded money.

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02-25-2010, 03:46 PM
  #387
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what exactly is this stocked d corps you speak of? The same guys who cant replace a lineup of bafoons currently playing with "the big club"? heikenen will walk at the end of the year, potter?....Sangs is probobly the only real potential nhl'er for the near future. How does trading away girardi for a pick that will probobly never get past hartford make any sense? Girardi as a 2nd line dman (tops) is about as good as you could ask for assuming he doesnt command redden/retarded money.
What about McDonaugh?

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02-25-2010, 03:50 PM
  #388
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what exactly is this stocked d corps you speak of? The same guys who cant replace a lineup of bafoons currently playing with "the big club"? heikenen will walk at the end of the year, potter?....Sangs is probobly the only real potential nhl'er for the near future. How does trading away girardi for a pick that will probobly never get past hartford make any sense? Girardi as a 2nd line dman (tops) is about as good as you could ask for assuming he doesnt command redden/retarded money.
Bingo. It's weird. We've re-tooled the team so much over the past few seasons and yet we keep going back and forth between "OK our D is set, we need scoring!" and "Ok first priority should be our defense, for sure!"

I think we've been lacking a solid veteran presence on the back-end for a long time now. I really wanted Jason Smith a few years ago when he was UFA. Instead, Sather tried to shore up the need for veteran, big-minute top-pairing defenseman, and PP-QB all in one shot with Mary Lou... My biggest wish this off-season isn't Kovalchuk or Volchenkov (though the latter would really be a huge plus, even more so than Ilya in my estimation) but for Redden to be off this team, one way or another.

Our situation could've been so ideal.. Staal, Del Zotto, even Gilroy despite his disappearing act over the course of the season are the perfect young D to ease into their roles with the help of seasoned veteran leadership... Redden and Rozsival are our veterans
Rozy I can live with. Especially if we dump Redden in Hartford, Rozsival's experience and for the most part, acceptable play will become that much more needed if we're icing another rookie or two next year. Yikes. This is also why I think trading Girardi for a pick or for a UFA or for an underachiever (ala the Tyutin-Zherdev trade) is a mistake. We'll see how it all plays out.

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02-25-2010, 03:53 PM
  #389
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What about McDonaugh?
IMO, he's probably another year away. But even if he does make the team. We're gonna bring two more rookies along with DZ, Gilroy, Staal and Rozsival? That's quite an inexperienced group unless you're moving one of them for something else... Our back-line is anything but stable or stacked right now. Great potential at the position, but not there yet.

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02-25-2010, 05:45 PM
  #390
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With the absolute necessity of dumping Redden (Hello MoDo!) and the possibility of moving Rozsival (although I think it is less than other do) the number one priority for the team in the offseason may be a front line defenseman. If Rozy goes, it's an absolute.


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02-25-2010, 06:03 PM
  #391
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Lotta good points in there... but at the same time... none of us (probably including Sather/Torts) knows what he IS for sure.

In my opinion it's too soon to tell. His situation is that he's shown some signs of good things both with great players (Gabby/Jagr) and without.

He very well could be an average player... or he could be one of those guys you kick yourself for giving up on too soon and dealing.

Tough call... I'd like to keep him and see. Just me tho.
The bottom line is really that, for many reasons, this organization is in no position to start dealing players like Dubinsky.

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02-26-2010, 06:25 AM
  #392
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Murray said there is plenty of trade talk, but salary cap issues remain a problem for a number of teams. “There are some people interested in dealing and there are some (potential unrestricted free agents) out there that teams want to get something for,” said Murray. “But everybody, ourselves included, is really concerned about money and the cap situation and what we can and can’t do.”
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hoc.../13032581.html

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02-27-2010, 10:21 PM
  #393
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Bruce Garrioch

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NY RANGERS: GM Glen Sather would like to bring in an extra defenceman and a scoring winger. The Rangers have interest in Souray, but the Oilers would have to take D Wade Redden in return.
I would make that trade

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PHOENIX: The Coyotes don’t have a lot of money to spend, but they’d like to rent a defenceman. They’d be willing to move C Peter Mueller if they were able to get an established veteran in return.
http://www.ottawasun.com/sports/hock.../13055696.html

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02-27-2010, 10:30 PM
  #394
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Prospal for Mueller?

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02-27-2010, 11:19 PM
  #395
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Prospal for Mueller?
No. The Coyotes would like a 7th defenseman type unless they can get a potential UFA cheap. They need an extra forward who can score. Losing Upshall has created a lot of concern. I don't think Mueller is going anywhere. He has played much better lately.

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02-27-2010, 11:59 PM
  #396
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I'd really love an extra first round pick (in the early 20's).

Nino Niederreiter with our pick.

Emerson Etem with the extra pick.

Future scoring depth solved.

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02-28-2010, 03:16 AM
  #397
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Rozy I can live with. Especially if we dump Redden in Hartford, Rozsival's experience and for the most part, acceptable play will become that much more needed if we're icing another rookie or two next year. Yikes. This is also why I think trading Girardi for a pick or for a UFA or for an underachiever (ala the Tyutin-Zherdev trade) is a mistake. We'll see how it all plays out.
One more time, since it hasn't sunk in...Z did not underachieve. He led the TEAM in Scoring. And would be the second best forward on this team again this year. I would still do that trade today.

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02-28-2010, 04:16 AM
  #398
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One more time, since it hasn't sunk in...Z did not underachieve. He led the TEAM in Scoring. And would be the second best forward on this team again this year. I would still do that trade today.
That doesn't mean he didn't "underachieve." With Zherdev's skill level, he's capable of putting up 100 points in a season. But he's not as passionate about the game, at least not consistently as a Crosby or Ovechkin, and he's content with only being great some of the time... so he gets 50-60 points. He gets a highlight reel goal and he forgets about the fact that he hasn't done jack the last 4-5 games. I'd still call him an underachiever, just like Kovalev is an underachiever when he puts up 65 points with an incredible skillset. It's not that 65 points isn't impressive. It's just that he's capable of more. At the same rate, if Ryan Callahan scores 35 goals next year, we'd probably say he's overachieving.

What I mean is that I don't want to give up assets for a player who's heart isn't 100% in it. We don't need another mercenary who isn't loyal to the NYR history, franchise, fans, city. If we want to build and grow a real "identity" as a team, we need more players with the heart of a Ryan Callahan... but preferably with more skill and scoring ability, not another flashy perimeter player who only gives 80% or only gives 100% half of his shifts. That's all. I don't think anyone can really disagree with that. I'm not saying Zherdevs and Kovalevs and Frolovs aren't useful and often important pieces of the puzzle, but at what cost (in terms of assets you have to give up, as well as cap-hit) is open for debate.


You said you'd "still do that trade today?" ... So you'd prefer an empty roster spot to Fedor Tyutin? That's.... an interesting point of view...

Even if we hadn't lost Zherdev over a contract dispute, I'd still prefer Tyutin over a signed Zherdev. This blueline could really use his overall game. It would also make moving Girardi for some scoring depth or a pick that much easier to handle.


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03-01-2010, 03:40 PM
  #399
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http://twitter.com/oilers_insider

I have no idea how legit this source is or what else we'd need to give up.

However a Ranger's fan can hope.....its all we got left

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03-01-2010, 03:57 PM
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What does it say I can't access Twitter from work!!

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