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Sather will look to improve Rangers at deadline

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Old
02-17-2010, 12:54 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The problem is Sather has not shown himself capable of showing any self-restraint when it comes to open capspace. He managed to dump Gomez's contract and then went out and threw money at another high-profile, high-risk player. The only difference is this has worked out so far.
That is the problem at its heart. And if the monumental ****-ups of the 2007 and 2008 offseasons prevent us from signing Kovalchuk, a free agent thats actually worth it, well, that'd be the final insult.

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02-17-2010, 12:56 PM
  #202
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Are the people who keep saying these even reading this thread?

Are you talking about short term success? Do you feel the Rangers can make the playoffs? Do you feel they can advance beyond the first round?
As i stated earlier i do beleive this team can advance beyond the first round. Anything can happen in the playoffs especially with a goalie as talented as Lundqvist. Not to mention the East is extremely weak this year.

Would i consider the Rangers favorites, absolutely not. Do i think anything is possible once your in, Yes.

I've had season tickets to the Rangers for ten years and every year i root for them to go as far as possible. How much is the return truly going to be for Prospal or Jokinen. 2nd rounder, 3rd rounder?

The odds of these players even making the NHL let alone being impact players are slim. True, great players come from nowhere but 4-5 years down the road the Rangers, if managed correctly will be contenders regardless of there draft picks. As i stated we have tons of young talent currently IN the STARTING LINEUP.

This doesn't even include the prospects that may or may not fare well in the NHL such as Werek, Stepan, Grachev, Heikkanen, Kreider, Sangs etc.

This team is NOT going to sell nor should they. It is in their best interest to do all they can to win year in and year out.

I can understand why you would think to sell but its just not realistic and if you've watched hockey for years you know that with a hot goalie and star power player like Gabby the playoffs can be a crazy thing

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02-17-2010, 12:59 PM
  #203
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And just to elaborate, look at the Yankees.

Sure its a different sport and a different situation, but the philosophy is similar. They showed restraint in the offseason leading up to 2008. They didnt sign any marquee free agents, they didnt sell the farm for Santana, and it led to a rough season by their standards.

The following year, when real difference makers became available via free agency(namely CC and Teixiera), they pounced, and we all know the result.

They learned their lesson, and I hope the Rangers do one day.

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02-17-2010, 01:01 PM
  #204
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Are there people here who honestly believe that this team is capable of beating Washington and/or Pittsburgh in a 7 game series? Because that's what the Rangers will have to do to in order to have a successful playoff run.

And saying "anything can happen with a hot goalie like Lundqvist" is not a valid answer. We saw last year that Lundqvist can't do it by himself, he was exhausted by Game 4.

Personally, I don't think this team is capable of competing with Washington and Pittsburgh right now, so I wouldn't mind if they sold off some vets like Prospal at the deadline in exchange for picks/prospects to help this team in the future. The Rangers couldn't beat Pitt in 2008 or Washington last year, and those Rangers teams were better than this year's team, so I can't imagine they would be able to pull out a series victory against Pitt or Wash this season.

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02-17-2010, 01:01 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by rangers32185 View Post
Not to take away anything because I agree you have to draft well but out of Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Toews, Kane they were all top picks. There's a difference between drafting well and tanking ala Detroit Red Wings they continually draft later in the 1st round and still find talent. You keep getting a top pick every year you're bound to have good talent.
Devils draft late every year

Anaheim has drafted late and have Getzlaf and Perry to show for it.

Flyers got both Richards and Giroux late first rounders

Successful teams are built from the draft and they add complimentary pieces through Free Agency. When they feel that they are one piece away they trade for that piece hence the Thornton and Heatley deals for San Jose.

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02-17-2010, 01:04 PM
  #206
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If there is a player who is not in the future plans of this team they should be moved. A couple of 2nd rounders could potentially become Derek Stepan and Brandon Dubinsky or Dane Byers and Antoine Lafleur but the chance is worth taking IF the players being dealt arent in the long-term plans.

It has nothing to do with tanking, it has everything to do with not losing value for nothing.

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02-17-2010, 01:09 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Are there people here who honestly believe that this team is capable of beating Washington and/or Pittsburgh in a 7 game series? Because that's what the Rangers will have to do to in order to have a successful playoff run.

And saying "anything can happen with a hot goalie like Lundqvist" is not a valid answer. We saw last year that Lundqvist can't do it by himself, he was exhausted by Game 4.

Personally, I don't think this team is capable of competing with Washington and Pittsburgh right now, so I wouldn't mind if they sold off some vets like Prospal at the deadline in exchange for picks/prospects to help this team in the future. The Rangers couldn't beat Pitt in 2008 or Washington last year, and those Rangers teams were better than this year's team, so I can't imagine they would be able to pull out a series victory against Pitt or Wash this season.

Last years Rangers team was just as bad if not worse than this years and i am leaning towards the latter

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02-17-2010, 01:28 PM
  #208
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Devils draft late every year

Anaheim has drafted late and have Getzlaf and Perry to show for it.

Flyers got both Richards and Giroux late first rounders

Successful teams are built from the draft and they add complimentary pieces through Free Agency. When they feel that they are one piece away they trade for that piece hence the Thornton and Heatley deals for San Jose.
Your opinions here seem to be heavily dependent on the 2003 draft. That featured extroardinary top end talent, deep into the 1st round.

Is NJ the same team without Parise? Is Philly without Carter and Richards? Is Anaheim without Getzlaf & Perry?

Substitute any of those players with a Hugh Jessiman or some other bust, or the average player picked in the late teens in any other recent draft year, and those organizations are in far worse shape than they currently are.

It's true that you can rebuild with late picks, but it takes a ton of luck, and good timing.

We had the timing right in 2003, but our luck and GM stunk.

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02-17-2010, 01:34 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
As i stated earlier i do beleive this team can advance beyond the first round. Anything can happen in the playoffs especially with a goalie as talented as Lundqvist. Not to mention the East is extremely weak this year.

Would i consider the Rangers favorites, absolutely not. Do i think anything is possible once your in, Yes.

I've had season tickets to the Rangers for ten years and every year i root for them to go as far as possible. How much is the return truly going to be for Prospal or Jokinen. 2nd rounder, 3rd rounder?

The odds of these players even making the NHL let alone being impact players are slim. True, great players come from nowhere but 4-5 years down the road the Rangers, if managed correctly will be contenders regardless of there draft picks. As i stated we have tons of young talent currently IN the STARTING LINEUP.

This doesn't even include the prospects that may or may not fare well in the NHL such as Werek, Stepan, Grachev, Heikkanen, Kreider, Sangs etc.

This team is NOT going to sell nor should they. It is in their best interest to do all they can to win year in and year out.

I can understand why you would think to sell but its just not realistic and if you've watched hockey for years you know that with a hot goalie and star power player like Gabby the playoffs can be a crazy thing
2nd rounder - Brandon Dubinsky, Sauer, Artem Anisimov and Ethan Werek, Derek Stepan
3rd rounder - Grachev
4th rounder - Ryan Callahan

That group makes up what is, according to HF, the 3rd best prospect pool in the NHL. Three of them are making significant impacts in the NHL as we speak.

And finally, in the 3-4 years when we are ready to contend, the surplus of prospects that we do have can be dealt for the true and legit impact player we will need to get us over the top.

If you are a fringe team like we are, moving impending UFA's for late 1st rounders and or early 2nd rounders is good asset management regardless of your rooting interest.

As for odds, the odds that a hot goalie and ONE legit sniper take you far in the PO's is less likely than a 2nd or a 3rd rounder panning out to become an impact player.

And at the end of the day, I'm tired of "just making the PO's" I want more and the way this organization does things that's not going to change anytime soon.

Just making the PO's and hoping to steal a few games should NEVER be the goal. And whether you want to believe it or not, that's the extent of our talent base.

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02-17-2010, 01:41 PM
  #210
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Yes, anything is possible in the playoffs. Still, that doesn't mean you shouldn't take the steps to give yourself the best chance to succeed.


The organizational philosophy here is flawed, and it's clearly rubbing off on some of the fans. "Winning at any cost" is a bad idea. That mentality led to Neil Smith selling off the youth to acquire aging veterans, and Glen Sather to buy whatever FA's he could get his hands on. This isn't baseball. You can't buy a successful team.

Free agency has been the biggest anchor around the neck of his franchise for years, and it's absolutely mind numbing that people continue to suggest that we should dump the big contracts so we can sign people who are actually worth the money. I don't know how someone can question the dedication of another fan when their "plan" revolves around the one thing that has hindered this team's success for years.

It's also quite amusing that people are arguing against dealing our rentals for late 1st or 2nd round draft picks, and then, in the very next paragraph, are saying; "Look at Detroit, they've been successful without having high picks!! They've pulled talent from the late first round and beyond!" Which one is it folks? You either acknowledge that those picks are valuable, or you don't.

Are multiple draft picks going to ensure that we get NHL talent from the draft? No. Do they increase the odds? Absolutely. If the draft was an exact science, you wouldn't even need a 3rd round or anything beyond it. All of the viable NHL talent would be gone in the first two rounds.

You say late 1st's or early 2nd's can't have any impact on an NHL roster until 4-5 years down the line, but we have a 2008 1st rounder anchoring the blue line on our PP. Staal only took two years to make the jump. Anisimov took 3. It's evident in other organizations as well. Not all prospects need 4+ years of development before they make an impact at this level.

You simply can't afford to be a nay-sayer when it comes to draft picks in the cap-era. They're far too important to a team. Many of you saying "Screw the picks!" are the same ones raving about our group of prospects. Stop playing both sides of the fence.

No Rangers fan wants this team to be horrible. Not a single one. What we do realize, however, is that the current mentality is not a successful one.

Buy a team -> Early round knock out -> Gut Roster -> repeat.

That's the M.O. of this front office, and it's gotten us nowhere. You can argue that it gives our rookies experience until the cows come home, but getting bounced in the first round year after year doesn't help a player's psyche.

I've been hearing "We're just one piece away from contending!" for YEARS and yet, we've almost ended this year and we're still not contending. I've been hearing "Anything can happen in the playoffs" every year since the lockout, and still, nothing is happening. Every post-season this team squeaks in and their weaknesses are quickly exposed. Secondary scoring, defensive coverage, discipline, toughness, the powerplay, hell, even PRIMARY scoring. Every year it's the same crap, and frankly, some of us are sick of watching this merry-go-round.

Anything can happen in the playoffs? Tell that to the St. Louis Blues.

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02-17-2010, 01:41 PM
  #211
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To me, Sather is a little like the guy who used to spin the pie plates on the Ed Sullivan Show. He would get one plate spinning, start a second and then go back and make the first plate spin more. It would go so on until he had all four pie plates spinning at the same time.

Unfortunately Slats hasn't been able to get all of the pie plates spinning at the same time. Give him credit, he has rebuilt the organization with young prospects. The problem is that plate is a still little wobbly because of some very bad luck (Cherepanov, Blackburn), some serious drafting gaffes early in his tenure and the lack of a bona fide scoring star. No one can argue that the organization is not in better shape than it was nine years ago but one can argue that the young core is just not good enough for all the time, effort and draft picks involved.

The second pie plate is trades and most give Sather high marks for making good solid hockey moves. Not all have worked but most were supported by a great majority of fans. Some have been good and a few were downright genius. And he hasn't squandered young assets or draft picks to make desperation trades. In a perfect world though, trades are the least important part of asset management in today's NHL.

The third pie plate is free agency and the Rangers have never got that plate spinning. A big part is that they are constantly looking for star players who have not been developed internally rather than players to fill specific needs. There have been some wins but there have been some spectaular losses. For every Gaborik, there's a Redden. For every Straka, there's a Gomez. And so on. The body of work here is not good. I don't begrudge spending to the cap because if I am a manager and can add assets at no cost, I spend the money. There's no reward for saving cap space. Remember, every season is a new season and there are always ways to massage the roster to make cap space.

The reason I have joined the "Retire Staher" group is simple. The team made progress over the last four years. They averaged over 90 points, made the playoffs 4times and won a couple of series. And they have been entertaining. This year has been a significant step backwards. They are a .500 team and will have to struggle to make the playoffs. And they are underachieving. There's a coaching problem, an overall talent level problem and the young core is just not as good as it should be.

I think it's time for Glen to move on. But I also think he's done a far better job than many seem to admit and he will have left this organization in better shape than he found it.

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02-17-2010, 01:43 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
As i stated earlier i do beleive this team can advance beyond the first round. Anything can happen in the playoffs especially with a goalie as talented as Lundqvist. Not to mention the East is extremely weak this year.

Would i consider the Rangers favorites, absolutely not. Do i think anything is possible once your in, Yes.

I've had season tickets to the Rangers for ten years and every year i root for them to go as far as possible. How much is the return truly going to be for Prospal or Jokinen. 2nd rounder, 3rd rounder?

The odds of these players even making the NHL let alone being impact players are slim. True, great players come from nowhere but 4-5 years down the road the Rangers, if managed correctly will be contenders regardless of there draft picks. As i stated we have tons of young talent currently IN the STARTING LINEUP.

This doesn't even include the prospects that may or may not fare well in the NHL such as Werek, Stepan, Grachev, Heikkanen, Kreider, Sangs etc.

This team is NOT going to sell nor should they. It is in their best interest to do all they can to win year in and year out.

I can understand why you would think to sell but its just not realistic and if you've watched hockey for years you know that with a hot goalie and star power player like Gabby the playoffs can be a crazy thing
Instead of "Gee, anything can happen in the playoffs" wouldnt you like a team year in and year out where you can say definitively "Damn, this team can do some damage in the playoffs?"

If this organization starts making smart decisions right now, we can have the type of team in a couple of years.

Please tell me how hanging onto Prospal and Jokinen makes sense in the longrun, when chances are they will no longer be Ranger property come July 1st. Is another first round playoff loss, or worse yet, not making the playoffs at all, really worth letting these guys go for nothing after your (shortlived) "anything can happen" run?

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02-17-2010, 02:07 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
Your opinions here seem to be heavily dependent on the 2003 draft. That featured extroardinary top end talent, deep into the 1st round.

Is NJ the same team without Parise? Is Philly without Carter and Richards? Is Anaheim without Getzlaf & Perry?

Substitute any of those players with a Hugh Jessiman or some other bust, or the average player picked in the late teens in any other recent draft year, and those organizations are in far worse shape than they currently are.

It's true that you can rebuild with late picks, but it takes a ton of luck, and good timing.

We had the timing right in 2003, but our luck and GM stunk.
You have a point, but it's rare, very rare indeed where players make significant impacts to their team within 2-3 or 3-4 years of being drafted.

We can go to the 04 draft and select Zajac, Wolski, Meszaros, Mike Green.

All picked from 20 on.

The 05 draft? Hanzal, Bergfors, Oshie, Rask, Niskanen, Downie

Again, all picked from 17 on

2006? Already mentioned Giroux, P. Berglund, Foligno

As for your question (regarding Parise, Richards, Perry and Getzlaf) if those teams are better with or without those players, no they are not which proves the point that successful teams are built through the draft. You can be lucky, or you can be smart and creative and good at what you do.

The recent drafts are naturally going to produce less current NHL players as they are still developing.

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02-17-2010, 02:13 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
As i stated earlier i do beleive this team can advance beyond the first round. Anything can happen in the playoffs especially with a goalie as talented as Lundqvist. Not to mention the East is extremely weak this year.
This is not a true statement, the East is not extremely weak this year. The Caps, Devils, Sabres, Penguins, and lately even the Senators have proven they are miles better than the weak part of the Eastern Conference. You know...the part that includes the Rangers.

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02-17-2010, 02:19 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
As i stated earlier i do believe this team can advance beyond the first round. Anything can happen in the playoffs especially with a goalie as talented as Lundqvist. Not to mention the East is extremely weak this year.

Would i consider the Rangers favorites, absolutely not. Do i think anything is possible once your in, Yes.
I'll say this. If they get in and face the Devils in round one, yah, I can see them winning that series just because it's the Devils.

You've got to realistic about chances of "anything's possible" actually happening. History says it never has in the NHL. THIS team is not going to be the one to re-write history, that I can tell you for sure.

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02-17-2010, 02:34 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The problem is Sather has not shown himself capable of showing any self-restraint when it comes to open capspace. He managed to dump Gomez's contract and then went out and threw money at another high-profile, high-risk player. The only difference is this has worked out so far.
So you're giving him ***** for not only his mistakes but his successes too

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02-17-2010, 02:36 PM
  #217
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This was from EJ Hradek espn column

"With the focus on the bad and worse contracts of Michal Rozsival and Redden, New York doesn’t get credit for its fine young defensive corps of Matt Gilroy, Daniel Girardi, Michael Del Zotto and Marc Staal, including quality defensive prospects Bobby Sanguinetti, Michael Sauer and Ryan McDonagh. Ergo, the Rangers have the depth to deal a replaceable player such as Dan Girardi — who will be a restricted free agent in 2010-11 — to a team such as the Leafs, who could use such a controllable asset. Ponikarovsky, Toronto’s best impact forward after Phil Kessel, could provide the Broadway Blueshirts with that needed scoring punch."


I dont know I dont like the idea of trading Girardi for a rental player.

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02-17-2010, 02:45 PM
  #218
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So you're giving him ***** for not only his mistakes but his successes too
You seem to have no problem with his mistakes and instead look at a crop of prospect who may or may not pan out. Meanwhile the team is mired in mediocrity.

What I'm criticizing him for is the fact that he has not changed his methods one bit. He moved a bad contract and then gave more money and more years to a guy who was a risk. He's fortunate it has worked out to date. But is this really a success? He threw the most money at the best player on the market. And what are the results? The team is pretty much what it was last year.

The problem is his gambles ultimately force him to make moves to correct them (think the Gomez deal or the Kotalik deals). When that happens, the team will never move forward and be anything more than they are now.

Wouldn't the ultimately goal be for Gomez and Gaborik to play together? That can't happen because of the way Glen has devoured capspace.

He managed to get Kotalik off the books for next season — a move necessitated by his own bad decision to give that contract and years to a guyf or whom he was seemingly bidding against himself. All that means is he'll find a way to give a huge money, huge year deal to someone else.

Same old, same old.

The Senators lost their best goal scorer and have been hit by injuries. The Sabres don't throw money around like Sather. Yet they're better than the Rangers.

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02-17-2010, 02:54 PM
  #219
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This was from EJ Hradek espn column

"With the focus on the bad and worse contracts of Michal Rozsival and Redden, New York doesn’t get credit for its fine young defensive corps of Matt Gilroy, Daniel Girardi, Michael Del Zotto and Marc Staal, including quality defensive prospects Bobby Sanguinetti, Michael Sauer and Ryan McDonagh. Ergo, the Rangers have the depth to deal a replaceable player such as Dan Girardi — who will be a restricted free agent in 2010-11 — to a team such as the Leafs, who could use such a controllable asset. Ponikarovsky, Toronto’s best impact forward after Phil Kessel, could provide the Broadway Blueshirts with that needed scoring punch."


I dont know I dont like the idea of trading Girardi for a rental player.
Yeah, trading Girardi for Ponikarovsky doesn't seem to be a good move for now or the future, unless Toronto includes a draft pick which is highly unlikely.

So our offense improves with Poni, but we sacrifice our defense and go with 3 rookies on the blueline to finish out the season? That's an odd move, trading for Poni signals the Rangers are making a push for the playoffs but adding another rookie defenseman into the mix kind of negates that. If they want to make a playoff push, one would think they would trade for a veteran 7th defenseman to give Gilroy and DZ some rest as opposed to throwing another rookie out there.

Girardi should be traded for picks, prospects, or an RFA, like the Tyutin-Zherdev trade.

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02-17-2010, 02:56 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
We can go to the 04 draft and select Zajac, Wolski, Meszaros, Mike Green.

All picked from 20 on.

The 05 draft? Hanzal, Bergfors, Oshie, Rask, Niskanen, Downie

Again, all picked from 17 on

2006? Already mentioned Giroux, P. Berglund, Foligno

As for your question (regarding Parise, Richards, Perry and Getzlaf) if those teams are better with or without those players, no they are not which proves the point that successful teams are built through the draft. You can be lucky, or you can be smart and creative and good at what you do.

The recent drafts are naturally going to produce less current NHL players as they are still developing.
If NJ, Philly, & Anaheim had those same draft picks in any other year aside from 2003, they would not be the same teams they are today. The players they got in 2003 are top pick players, taken in the middle-late part of the 1st round. It's not normal. It was a fluke and they were lucky to get them. Maybe you can argue they were smart if they knew ahead of time that the draft would be so deep, and they had a mediocre season on purpose to pick them.

Of the players you mentioned from 04-06, I'm not sure I see any of them as being elite top line players, aside from Green. The rest are very good players, but definitely not in the calibre of Parise, Getzlaf, Richards, Carter, etc, forget about the Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin class.

And that's what this team is missing, right? We have some good players here that we've drafted in first round or later. We have Callahan, Dubinsky, Staal, etc. Perhaps we even have some excellent players coming along in Del Zotto, Stepan, Kreider, who knows. The problem is that none of them are sure things. We don't have the kind of players that are game changers. Those are the kinds of guys you can expect to get with the top picks...if you're smart and lucky.

Of the top 12 pt per game players in the league, you know how many of them were taken outside the first 3 picks of their draft year? 2. Martin St. Louis and his situation is a fluke...and Semin...and he plays with the best player in the league.

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02-17-2010, 02:58 PM
  #221
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If TOR adds a pick, would that change your interest level?

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02-17-2010, 03:06 PM
  #222
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Given the amount of D-men they have under contract, why would Toronto make such a deal?

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02-17-2010, 03:07 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
If TOR adds a pick, would that change your interest level?
Toronto has no picks. They traded them for Kessel.

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02-17-2010, 03:16 PM
  #224
nyrage
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post

I think it's time for Glen to move on. But I also think he's done a far better job than many seem to admit and he will have left this organization in better shape than he found it.

Leaving the organization in better shape is probably not a good way to measure his success. After all, he has had 10 years to try to improve the team. Almost anyone could have left the team in better position than it was 10 years ago. We have better prospects, but we still haven't won anything and we are burdened by his foolish contracts and poor roster construction.

A poorly run company can still be profitable. Is it getting the right level of return?

It's great that we have better prospects now, but is that the best that we can do in ten years? Sather needs to go.

Add in the Knicks and MSG is the Mecca of Fail.

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02-17-2010, 03:19 PM
  #225
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Even the defensemen in Hartford haven't developed.

Bobby Sanguinetti was putting up good offensive numbers early in the season and then he slumped. Now Sanguinetti is out with an undisclosed injury. He was OK in training camp. The Rangers offered him to PHX for Peter Mueller.

Michael Sauer is a third year pro and he can't stay in one piece. Torts didn't give him a minute in pre-season.

Corey Potter will be a group 6 UFA this summer. What you see is what you get.

Ilkka Heikinen was given a look in December and was sent back never to return. Is he in the Rangers plans or he is going to the KHL next season?

Nigel Williams stinks. No surprise there.

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