HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Why is Norway not a hockey power?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-17-2010, 02:36 PM
  #126
FreakyEuro*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gladsaxe, Denmark
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 508
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franck View Post
It's a long story that I don't really feel like going into detail on, at least not on a hockey forum.
It might really turn into a walk on hot coals as the multinational discussions tend to be prone to misunderstood. I should know something about that myself...

FreakyEuro* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 02:37 PM
  #127
noobman
Registered User
 
noobman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,636
vCash: 500
What came first... the chicken or the egg?


That's really what the debate has boiled down to. Is Noway's hockey program weak b/c they don't have enough facilities, or do they not have facilities b/c the program is weak?

It's a bit of both, and a viscous circle as many have pointed out. If someone decided to invest a ton of money into Norwegian hockey to cover everything from coaches, trainers, and promotion to facilities and equipment, the program would become far more successful.

It's not as though the country is tremendously short on athletes... it's that the program is poor. IIRC, Norway's population isn't too far off from Finland (but still only 1/2 of Sweden), so with all other factors equal they could ice a similarly talented hockey squad.

The top athletes aren't in hockey (promotion, facilities, resources, etc) and ones that are just aren't receiving the level of training as other nations.


To be fair to Norway though, they have a large presence across European leagues.

noobman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 02:44 PM
  #128
IslesNorway
Registered User
 
IslesNorway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Norway
Posts: 2,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franck View Post
Yes, many of the Norwegian players are shorter than your typical hockey players.

Norwegians as a whole are not a short people though, if that was what you where thinking.
There isn't such a physical emphasis on the game over here so players don't have to be 6' 4" to play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noobman View Post
What came first... the chicken or the egg?


That's really what the debate has boiled down to. Is Noway's hockey program weak b/c they don't have enough facilities, or do they not have facilities b/c the program is weak?

It's a bit of both, and a viscous circle as many have pointed out. If someone decided to invest a ton of money into Norwegian hockey to cover everything from coaches, trainers, and promotion to facilities and equipment, the program would become far more successful.

It's not as though the country is tremendously short on athletes... it's that the program is poor. IIRC, Norway's population isn't too far off from Finland (but still only 1/2 of Sweden), so with all other factors equal they could ice a similarly talented hockey squad.

The top athletes aren't in hockey (promotion, facilities, resources, etc) and ones that are just aren't receiving the level of training as other nations.


To be fair to Norway though, they have a large presence across European leagues.
Agreed and well put!

Now let's get this discussion back on track!!


Last edited by IslesNorway: 02-17-2010 at 02:49 PM.
IslesNorway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 02:44 PM
  #129
Badman
Registered User
 
Badman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Stavanger, Norway
Country: Norway
Posts: 224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
May have been a good decision though, you can win just one medal at the Olympics for hockey, loads in cross country, biathlon etc.
Yes, but the lack of "hockey infrastructure" also caused the lack of figure skating, shorttrack speed skating and curling infrastructure. And coincidentially we're even worse in those sports (curling excluded) than hockey. And seeing as Norway is one of the best speed skating nations ever our complete absence from shorttrack speed skating does point to the fact that we have very few rinks as a major cause for our hockey, shorttrack and figure skating shortcomings.

Edit: Why we are quite good at curling is a mystery though... :-)

Badman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 02:44 PM
  #130
Dr Awesome
Bo "knows" Horvat
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: British Columbia
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,832
vCash: 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
What the hell are you rambling about?? Der Fuhrer?? WTF?

Go look up the term "protestant work ethic".

Then come back and apologize for your ignorance.
sorry but wow lol. Even I felt like I was slapped with that response reading it.


But back to the thread for the most part has been interesting learning some new things, and some certain misconceptions about Norway have been laid to rest.

Dr Awesome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 02:48 PM
  #131
BattleAxe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5
vCash: 500
I guess it's a cultural thing if Norway consideres hockey "a low class" sport and take pride in soccer or handball success. Soccer of course is an universal sport where Finland is well behind its' neighbours, but handball has always been the swedish speaking sport in Finland. In basketball & volleyball Finland is the leading nordic nation. Volleyball is of course probably still being seen as a "soviet sport" and not very attractive in Norway, Sweden etc. but looking at the stats it's far bigger than handball or hockey combined.

In basketball Sweden and Finland are pretty close, but Finland is a division A team and Sweden div. B in Europe. Norway can't compete in either of these sports against its' neigbours, neither can Denmark.

Soccer probably takes so much of the talent pool in Norway, and Sweden has soccer + some other more unique team sports (handball, iceball, ice hockey, floorball..) where they are world class, but for some reason don't succeed in sports like volleyball or basketball, where Finland is doing ok, even though both are relatively small sports in Finland too, although not nearly as small as handball.

BattleAxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 02:51 PM
  #132
FreakyEuro*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gladsaxe, Denmark
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 508
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IslesNorway View Post
Agreed and well put!

Now let's get this discussion back on track!!
Could the situation in Norway be saved by means of proper advertisement. I mean like trying to present those brutish bullies as dedicated athletes who are willing of self-sacrifice beyond the limits of pain? In other words trying to advertise the hockey the way it is regarded in Canada/US.

It goes down to the question if there's a sport development program presided over by Norwegian state authorities (I'm sure it must be, given the Norways brutal skiing force). A Finnish colleague presented here a good poin the Finnish government set ice hockey as its priority of development in 50's - 60's.

As long as there is a body of that sort that is linked to state funding, the situation could be changed, no?

FreakyEuro* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 03:47 PM
  #133
Denzil
NOLU
 
Denzil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New York
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,515
vCash: 500
Compare Norway to the UK, and it's not even close - we have 10 times to population of Norway, with less hockey players and only 7 more rinks.

It's not like we don't have a history of hockey either, two Olympic medals (one gold) and quite a few players used to play in North America...

So anyway, if you're looking for a nation that absolutely doesn't punch it's weight, it's GBR...

Denzil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 03:51 PM
  #134
Placid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Norway
Posts: 2,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
Could the situation in Norway be saved by means of proper advertisement. I mean like trying to present those brutish bullies as dedicated athletes who are willing of self-sacrifice beyond the limits of pain? In other words trying to advertise the hockey the way it is regarded in Canada/US.
That might be possible, but only over time (which would require a truckload of money for a long term campaign / advertising). It would also require the sports management of the various TV channels to take hockey seriously, which simply isnt going to happen until the public demanded it, which wouldnt happen, etc etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
It goes down to the question if there's a sport development program presided over by Norwegian state authorities (I'm sure it must be, given the Norways brutal skiing force).
We have various athlete development programs for youth, but i doubt that anything is in place for hockey. Similarly, our professional clubs are mostly dependant on sponsorship from private sponsors, and most hockeyplayers also has a job on the side (like for example our goalie Grotnes is a carpenter). We have gotten some talent forward in the last few years, most of who are playing in the Swedish league today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
As long as there is a body of that sort that is linked to state funding, the situation could be changed, no?
Yes, i am convinced it could, but as i said earlier, i believe it could only be done slowly, over time.


Last edited by Placid: 02-17-2010 at 03:54 PM. Reason: spelling
Placid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 03:53 PM
  #135
Hasbro
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Hasbro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Rectangle
Country: Sami
Posts: 29,895
vCash: 500
The one I can't make sense of is Japan. They have 120 rinks 20K registered players and are a financially well off country. however, Fukufuji is about the only player who's really had a sniff at the NHL.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Wang's investment in hockey in China. A billion and a half people, there's got to be one natural there.

It looks like the countries making the jump are the alpine countries and Denmark.

Hasbro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:08 PM
  #136
Brodie
watcher on the walls
 
Brodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 12,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denzil View Post
Compare Norway to the UK, and it's not even close - we have 10 times to population of Norway, with less hockey players and only 7 more rinks.

It's not like we don't have a history of hockey either, two Olympic medals (one gold) and quite a few players used to play in North America...

So anyway, if you're looking for a nation that absolutely doesn't punch it's weight, it's GBR...
I will say it again... Britons invented hockey.

Brodie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:15 PM
  #137
Denzil
NOLU
 
Denzil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New York
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,515
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
I will say it again... Britons invented hockey.
I know this

Denzil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:17 PM
  #138
FreakyEuro*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gladsaxe, Denmark
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 508
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placid View Post
That might be possible, but only over time (which would require a truckload of money for a long term campaign / advertising). It would also require the sports management of the various TV channels to take hockey seriously, which simply isnt going to happen until the public demanded it, which wouldnt happen, etc etc
I was actually afraid it could end up in a dead-end full circle like this. True, unless the public market doesn't create the demand, there doesn't seem to be any change in terms of advertising and state attitude. And without advertisement, the public demand won't emerge and if it does, then only slowly, so there we go, I guess.

You guys just have to tell all your friends and neighbors how cool hockey actually is. so they can proceed to create THE demand.

FreakyEuro* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:17 PM
  #139
Defeatist*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,350
vCash: 500
Same reason Canada is so great and the USA is so terrible. Just because countries are close geographically doesn't make the concentration gradient of good hockey players balanced.

Defeatist* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:17 PM
  #140
IslesNorway
Registered User
 
IslesNorway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Norway
Posts: 2,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placid View Post
That might be possible, but only over time (which would require a truckload of money for a long term campaign / advertising). It would also require the sports management of the various TV channels to take hockey seriously, which simply isnt going to happen until the public demanded it, which wouldnt happen, etc etc


We have various athlete development programs for youth, but i doubt that anything is in place for hockey. Similarly, our professional clubs are mostly dependant on sponsorship from private sponsors, and most hockeyplayers also has a job on the side (like for example our goalie Grotnes is a carpenter). We have gotten some talent forward in the last few years, most of who are playing in the Swedish league today.


Yes, i am convinced it could, but as i said earlier, i believe it could only be done slowly, over time.
Totally agree. But the ice hockey federation has been skint for years and sponsors aren't exactly lining up. With advertisments and national tv coverage things would improve but it'll take many years. On the other hand, if they can do it in Switzerland it can be done in Norway, but really the sport needs to look at itself and rid itself of its bad reputation and image among the general populace.

IslesNorway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:26 PM
  #141
Brodie
watcher on the walls
 
Brodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 12,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denzil View Post
I know this
It just makes the current level of British hockey even more sad.

Brodie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:28 PM
  #142
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
The one I can't make sense of is Japan. They have 120 rinks 20K registered players and are a financially well off country. however, Fukufuji is about the only player who's really had a sniff at the NHL.
That's not much of a mystery, actually (then again, I was a coach over there for 5 years, hehe). During the key development years (mid teens) when players are being scouted by NHL teams, Japanese kids are spending almost every waking hour of every waking day between their school club activities (and no, hockey isn't one of them in 99.99999999999% of schools) and studying for high school/university entrance exams. Most males (especially older siblings or only children) are also expected to take care of their parents when they get old (as in that son will always stay at home, or the parents will move in wherever he goes - married or not), so getting into a good university (which automatically translates into a good job over there, btw) and getting a job with a good salary is the number one focus. And most Japanese parents would NOT be willing to leave Japan to live with a son working overseas.

There are lots of kids who have the passion for ice hockey, and are encouraged to participate in it (my kids' parents were all very supportive), as long as it doesn't interfere with school, future work prospects, and family duty/responsibilities. One of the other coaches of our team (and consequently one of my best friends) was good enough to get recruited by a university team in Manitoba. He was allowed to go with the understanding that it was to learn English while on "an exchange" (ryuugaku), and that he'd definitely be coming back after graduating. Of course, at that age it's pretty much too late to grab the eye of scouts anyways.

Unless you're a promising baseball player or sumo wrestler (not soccer player though, funny enough), you're not allowed to let a sport occupy most of your life, and certainly not take precedence over school/work prospects for the future.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:35 PM
  #143
Placid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Norway
Posts: 2,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
You guys just have to tell all your friends and neighbors how cool hockey actually is. so they can proceed to create THE demand.
hehe, yeah. I think a "grassroots movement" is the fastest way to go. It would take time though, but i dont think there is any way to "sneak past" that aspect of it.

Placid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:37 PM
  #144
Hasbro
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Hasbro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Rectangle
Country: Sami
Posts: 29,895
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
That's not much of a mystery, actually (then again, I was a coach over there for 5 years, hehe). During the key development years (mid teens) when players are being scouted by NHL teams, Japanese kids are spending almost every waking hour of every waking day between their school club activities (and no, hockey isn't one of them in 99.99999999999% of schools) and studying for high school/university entrance exams. Most males (especially older siblings or only children) are also expected to take care of their parents when they get old (as in that son will always stay at home, or the parents will move in wherever he goes - married or not), so getting into a good university (which automatically translates into a good job over there, btw) and getting a job with a good salary is the number one focus. And most Japanese parents would NOT be willing to leave Japan to live with a son working overseas.

There are lots of kids who have the passion for ice hockey, and are encouraged to participate in it (my kids' parents were all very supportive), as long as it doesn't interfere with school, future work prospects, and family duty/responsibilities. One of the other coaches of our team (and consequently one of my best friends) was good enough to get recruited by a university team in Manitoba. He was allowed to go with the understanding that it was to learn English while on "an exchange" (ryuugaku), and that he'd definitely be coming back after graduating. Of course, at that age it's pretty much too late to grab the eye of scouts anyways.
Thanks.

so do you think it would just take a relatively minor tweaking of the system there as opposed to and overhaul like some countries would need to yield results?

Quote:
Unless you're a promising baseball player or sumo wrestler (not soccer player though, funny enough), you're not allowed to let a sport occupy most of your life, and certainly not take precedence over school/work prospects for the future.
Or competative hot dog eater.

Hasbro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:41 PM
  #145
Franck
Insolent Upstart
 
Franck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gothenburg
Country: Sweden
Posts: 7,902
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
Thanks.

so do you think it would just take a relatively minor tweaking of the system there as opposed to and overhaul like some countries would need to yield results?
I am not sure that changing Japanese culture itself would qualify as a "minor tweak".

Franck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:46 PM
  #146
FreakyEuro*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gladsaxe, Denmark
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 508
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defeatist View Post
Same reason Canada is so great and the USA is so terrible. Just because countries are close geographically doesn't make the concentration gradient of good hockey players balanced.
Now where did I put that anti-troll spray? Ah ... here

http://www.trollhunters.org/files/trolls/troll-01.jpg

FreakyEuro* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:46 PM
  #147
BSHH
HSVer & Rotflügel
 
BSHH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hamburg
Country: Germany
Posts: 985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franck View Post
Spend it on their hideously overpriced food, alcohol and other essential products.


I really had to laugh about your remark. But that was also because it came from a Swede...

Gruß,
BSHH

BSHH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:50 PM
  #148
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
Thanks.

so do you think it would just take a relatively minor tweaking of the system there as opposed to and overhaul like some countries would need to yield results?
Minor tweaking of the system? What system? There is absolutely no development or cohesive minor league system outside of Hokkaido (where the people to deer ratio is similar to Nunavut... okay, I'm kidding... sort of). The men's league that does exist is just corporations looking for fun and unique excuses to spend money and get bragging rights over competing conglomerates, and most players are company employees first, hockey players second (so your salary compensates you for your job, not necessarily your skill at hockey).

If there was an actual organized (and competitive... i.e. house league separated from "rep" teams) minor league in the big cities (Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Kobe, etc) instead of teams playing as many exhibition games as the coaches can arrange, a national development program, and prospects of high salaries in a domestic pro league, Japan would turn into a respectable hockey power overnight. No one there is going to spend the time and money to put that in place though, as long as the light at the end of the tunnel is only pale green (and not the bright green of million $ salaries).

edit: I should add that I was kind of exagerrating here. There are national U-18 and U-20 teams that were formed fairly recently (I believe) and receive nominal funding.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 02-17-2010 at 05:29 PM.
Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:54 PM
  #149
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSHH View Post


I really had to laugh about your remark. But that was also because it came from a Swede...

Gruß,
BSHH
On that note, my Japanese "parents" complained about how expensive everything was in Sweden and Denmark (they went there for 2.5 weeks a few years ago), so you know it has to be bad. Then again, no matter where you go the locals have figured out how to make money stretch farther than the tourists. Some people pay hundreds of dollars for a small serving of Kobe beef, but I've never paid more than 100 bucks for a decent slab (perfectly cooked and chopped, of course. Then again, I lived close to where it's actually raised, which is an area called Tajima in northern Hyogo near the Sea of Japan. Kobe is simply where it's internationally exported from).

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2010, 04:57 PM
  #150
FreakyEuro*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gladsaxe, Denmark
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 508
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placid View Post
hehe, yeah. I think a "grassroots movement" is the fastest way to go. It would take time though, but i dont think there is any way to "sneak past" that aspect of it.
Maybe there is a way. As the teenagers sum up for a major marketing drive and channel, the task would be to persuade the teenagers that anyone who doesn't play/follow hockey is an utter fairy (no pun intended). To make the teenagers dig the game. The rest will be a stone rolling down the hill.

FreakyEuro* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:40 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.