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Hockey Canada's fundamental philosphy (roster talk/omissions)

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Old
02-19-2010, 02:37 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Yeah damn I would never put some stanley cup champion vets on when things got important.
Staal, Boyle, Perry, Niedermayer, Brodeur, Getzlaf, Perry.

That's more cup champion vets than Switzerland has. That's more cup champions than current NHL players that Switzerland has. Surely stanley cup experience was the issue. If every player on the team hasn't won a stanley cup, then the team is a failure. WHERE IS KIRK MALTBY WHEN YOU NEED HIM?!

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02-19-2010, 02:38 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Guess you don't watch many bolts or stars games, cuz these guys are all over the place and they dominate.
It's funny how you've decided to attack my hockey knowledge when your opinion is clearly the minority one. It must be nice knowing so much more about hockey than the rest of us.

Quote:
No...you keep em to the outside by taking away slot and trying to get sticks in passing lanes.

And D backs up against top skill guys coming in. You don't play them high. Swiss D backed up by Thorton & Crosby lines, not so much the other 2.
You seem to be under the impression that defense in hockey begins at the blueline.

Defense begins with the play of the forwards in the offensive and neutral zones. One way to neutralize skill players is by pressuring the defensemen in the offensive zone. It's hard to create offense if the defenseman is forced to bank the puck out of the zone under heavy pressure, or if the defenseman makes a bad breakout pass. Another way to neutralize skill players is to take away their angles and passing lanes in the neutral zone...forcing the puck outside and then simultaneously applying pressure while taking away options. Forcing defenseman into transition/breakout mistakes helps accomplish this, but it's hardly a requirement.

What the defensemen are forced to do at the blueline depends solely on how well the forwards are doing their defensive jobs in the other two zones, and on what defensive schemes are being employed. It's not something the offense can consistently "force" against a quality defense, regardless of how skilled they are.

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02-19-2010, 02:39 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Yeah damn I would never put some stanley cup champion vets on when things got important. Those 3 guys are such 1 dimensional scorers that with a minute left they'd all be cherry picking up at the opposition blue line for the EN goal. Better put these guys who are younger, never won anything, and cuz they are less good at scoring they must be better at D.
sigh your justifications for not having any dedicated penalty killers and defensive players just keep getting worse and worse. Why would you want Vinny, Marty and Brad on the ice to kill penalties and ride the pine for much of the game when you could have guys who will accept that role and liekly accel at it instead. There is only so much ice time to go around. Your proposed fourth line won't see PP time in normal situations and can't play defensive hockey like Hockey Canadas line can.

Again if Canadas offense is so underpowered why have they scored more goals than Russia and won both their games.

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02-19-2010, 02:41 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg View Post
Staal, Boyle, Perry, Niedermayer, Brodeur, Getzlaf, Perry.

That's more cup champion vets than Switzerland has. That's more cup champions than current NHL players that Switzerland has. Surely stanley cup experience was the issue. If every player on the team hasn't won a stanley cup, then the team is a failure. WHERE IS KIRK MALTBY WHEN YOU NEED HIM?!
Don't forget Crosby and Fleury.

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02-19-2010, 02:43 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by SkateSave View Post
The problem with the Swiss game wasn't a lack of high end skill. It was too much of it.

Hello, Canada was up 2-0 and gave up the lead!! What does this tell you; complacency, all star attitude, bad defence, lack of pushback.

Don't expect to score six goals against the Swiss. They area strong-willed, well coached, well coordinated defensive team. Canada had them at 2-0 and thought they could pass their way to a win. Silly.
My beef: Why pick big players if you're not gonna crash and bang?

Swiss players didn't respect CAN players 'cos they didn't bring the pain...might as well have brought finesse game breakers like Stamkos then.

And some questionable decisions by Babcock...Canada has to play to their strengths, not be Detroit 2.0.

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02-19-2010, 02:44 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
An all-world line like Richards-Lecavalier-St Louis can play any offensive facet of the game better than many of the players Canada brought, especially the "grit" contingent. These guys are DOMINATING players, they will own the puck, they will move it, and the defence will be forced to back up and turtle out of respect for them allowing them to setup chances.
Patrice Bergeron is better at controlling the puck than all three of those players. Sure they are better scorers, but being able to win almost every puck battle along their boards is much more important from a fourth line than forcing the other team to be scared of you (which would NEVER happen anyway).

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Old
02-19-2010, 02:50 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Percyswan View Post
Don't forget Crosby and Fleury.
Right, and Kirk Maltby needs to be on the 2014 team too. His 3 cup wins will propel Canada to a victory over anyone they happen to face.

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Old
02-19-2010, 03:03 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by David View Post
My beef: Why pick big players if you're not gonna crash and bang?

Swiss players didn't respect CAN players 'cos they didn't bring the pain...might as well have brought finesse game breakers like Stamkos then.

And some questionable decisions by Babcock...Canada has to play to their strengths, not be Detroit 2.0.
Using the body, making the smart play, fore-checking with commitment, all require a mentality that without these things, the game will be lost. Canada wasn't ready to face that reality yet. It looked like they thought they could rely on their skill and the fact of being 'Canada'.

It's not a matter of personnel choice. I'm fairly certain the coaching staff wants Canada to bang and use their size. This team playing at its strengths is better than a smaller, less defensive, arguably slightly more skilled team.

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Old
02-19-2010, 03:04 PM
  #109
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Brad Richards -11
Vincent Lecavalier -4
Martin St Louis +2

Toews +25
Richards +1 but coming off near Selke winning year
Bergeron -1

Seabrook +22 (not a forward but a "plug", plugging up the middle of the ice that is)

Now I've said it before and I'll say it again stats do not tell the whole story, but they do tell some of it. Bergeron plays with a pair of line mates that you might legitimately call plugs against the other teams top lines. Richards, in all honestly, isn't having his best season at the same time it wasn't that long ago he was considered one of the best two way players in hockey along the lines of Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
But just so we're clear my arguement is more with the fact that you think that ROLE players are not as important as rolling 4 scoring lines not a witch hunt on Vinny, Brad and Marty. My original picking I had St. Louis actually on this team. But I don't fault Steve Yzerman for picking the team as he has.
The team was picked as it was for situational play, as I mentioned:

"the other 4 were chosen for other aspects that they bring to the game (defense, face-offs, penalty killing, "Griiiiit", even the way they shoot (Morrow is a natural left winger) and shootout ability (despite the miss on a very nice save by Hiller, Toews is a beast in this) not to say that any of them are slouches in the offensive department either"

Yzerman felt these guys did these INTANGIBLES the best and if you watched these guys play or at least get part of the story from nhl.com and check stats in faceoffs, +/-, Shootout, Hits, hell even blocked shots you'll see why these guys are there.

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02-19-2010, 03:04 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
It's funny how you've decided to attack my hockey knowledge when your opinion is clearly the minority one. It must be nice knowing so much more about hockey than the rest of us.


You seem to be under the impression that defense in hockey begins at the blueline.

Defense begins with the play of the forwards in the offensive and neutral zones. One way to neutralize skill players is by pressuring the defensemen in the offensive zone. It's hard to create offense if the defenseman is forced to bank the puck out of the zone under heavy pressure, or if the defenseman makes a bad breakout pass. Another way to neutralize skill players is to take away their angles and passing lanes in the neutral zone...forcing the puck outside and then simultaneously applying pressure while taking away options. Forcing defenseman into transition/breakout mistakes helps accomplish this, but it's hardly a requirement.

What the defensemen are forced to do at the blueline depends solely on how well the forwards are doing their defensive jobs in the other two zones, and on what defensive schemes are being employed. It's not something the offense can consistently "force" against a quality defense, regardless of how skilled they are.
Nice appeal to authority there, but we both know that 95% of people on these forums know jack about hockey & probably have never even played.

We weren't talking about neutral zone defence, but if you want to get into that, then a more skilled & visionary line would be better able to get through whatever trappy scheme you envision anyways while less creative players will be reduced to dump & chase.

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02-19-2010, 03:07 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by SkateSave View Post
Using the body, making the smart play, fore-checking with commitment, all require a mentality that without these things, the game will be lost. Canada wasn't ready to face that reality yet. It looked like they thought they could rely on their skill and the fact of being 'Canada'.

It's not a matter of personnel choice. I'm fairly certain the coaching staff wants Canada to bang and use their size. This team playing at its strengths is better than a smaller, less defensive, arguably slightly more skilled team.
Of course it is...otherwise you state the obvious.

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Old
02-19-2010, 03:08 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Nice appeal to authority there, but we both know that 95% of people on these forums know jack about hockey & probably have never even played.

We weren't talking about neutral zone defence, but if you want to get into that, then a more skilled & visionary line would be better able to get through whatever trappy scheme you envision anyways while less creative players will be reduced to dump & chase.
Yeah, Canada's 1st scoring line is about as skilled and visionary as it gets. Bang up job they did.

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Old
02-19-2010, 03:16 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by bstap View Post
Brad Richards -11
Vincent Lecavalier -4
Martin St Louis +2

Toews +25
Richards +1 but coming off near Selke winning year
Bergeron -1

Seabrook +22 (not a forward but a "plug", plugging up the middle of the ice that is)

Yzerman felt these guys did these INTANGIBLES the best and if you watched these guys play or at least get part of the story from nhl.com and check stats in faceoffs, +/-, Shootout, Hits, hell even blocked shots you'll see why these guys are there.
Oh cmon, +/- stats?? Chicago players have high + stat? Really?? Hey Jeff Schultz is +37, sign him up to Team Canada!

Regarding the intangibles, like I said in my first post, this is a team built with the wrong objectives. These are intangibles that are more useful for a 7 game stanley cup playoff series. In this single elimation tournement the real threat is not a team that can out grriiiiiitt you, but the team with the hot goalie. To increase your chance of getting past a hot goalie you bring all your all-world offensive talent.

Canada just slipped by the hot goalie, Russia didn't. Both teams could've used more offensive talent last night, not more griiiiiittttt. One of Canada's offensive lines wasn't playing well (Getzlaf), and the PP was terrible. This is when you wish you had some other guys to try.

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02-19-2010, 03:19 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Nice appeal to authority there, but we both know that 95% of people on these forums know jack about hockey & probably have never even played.

We weren't talking about neutral zone defence, but if you want to get into that, then a more skilled & visionary line would be better able to get through whatever trappy scheme you envision anyways while less creative players will be reduced to dump & chase.
Oh the irony.

You sure are doing a bang up job at trying to prove that point.

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Old
02-19-2010, 03:29 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
What every fan from every country needs to realize is that the best team on paper doesn't win at the Olympics. The hottest team at the time wins or a hot goaltender can beat even the most stacked team.
So true, and this applies at pretty much every level and league in hockey.

Why do so many fans forget this simple fact, especially when it comes to international tournaments?

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Old
02-19-2010, 03:32 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Oh cmon, +/- stats?? Chicago players have high + stat? Really?? Hey Jeff Schultz is +37, sign him up to Team Canada!

Regarding the intangibles, like I said in my first post, this is a team built with the wrong objectives. These are intangibles that are more useful for a 7 game stanley cup playoff series. In this single elimation tournement the real threat is not a team that can out grriiiiiitt you, but the team with the hot goalie. To increase your chance of getting past a hot goalie you bring all your all-world offensive talent.

Canada just slipped by the hot goalie, Russia didn't. Both teams could've used more offensive talent last night, not more griiiiiittttt. One of Canada's offensive lines wasn't playing well (Getzlaf), and the PP was terrible. This is when you wish you had some other guys to try.
Now you're saying the Russians need more offense

I guess keeping Kovalev off that team is really hurting them

Please, for the love of God give up. You're little comment about how 95% of people on this board don't know anything about hockey, while you are some type of messiah is absolutely hilarious.

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Old
02-19-2010, 03:32 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
To increase your chance of getting past a hot goalie you bring all your all-world offensive talent.
Then by bringing more offensive talent and reducing your defense, you give up more goals to the other team, and due to them having a hot goalie, your offense doesn't score as much as it should, and you end up losing out by the hot goalie robbing your scoring chances, as you give up a large number more scoring chances.

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02-19-2010, 03:40 PM
  #118
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Winning important faceoffs in the offensive/defensive zones, blocking a shot in front of the net (props Danny Boyle) making a big hit on the fore check that cause a team to cough the puck up leading to a scoring chance, getting a big shootout goal to win the game these are all important elements. Man I'll even bite on the Brad, Marty and Vinny are better situated to do this (I don't agree that they are but at least I'll argue it) but if your saying that this stuff isn't important enough that Steve should have neglected its importance for more of a scoring element (yes in a single elimination tourney) then sir maybe what some of what the other posters are saying about you is true. Again scoring is important, very much so. I've said that, go back in my earlier posts and you'll see that. But so are INTANGIBLES, if they weren't then we would have lost the shootout. I'm not saying scorers can't bring intangibles or players with intangibles can't score but to neglect that both are important in whatever type of tourney is just ignorant. I'll saying it again you can shorten your bench to generate more scoring opportunities when there is that need but you can't add intangibles from players like Toews, M. Richards, Morrow or Bergeron when you leave them off the team.

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02-19-2010, 03:42 PM
  #119
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can wait when canada get a medal hopefully goold then we should bump this thread

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02-19-2010, 03:48 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Nice appeal to authority there, but we both know that 95% of people on these forums know jack about hockey & probably have never even played.
Who said I was referring only to the people on these boards? Your opinion obviously clashes with the opinions of those in charge of team Canada...and, if we want to expand the conversation, those in charge of virtually every team in the tournament. A good number of those people have played or coached hockey at a very high level. What makes you think you're on to something that they've all collectively overlooked?

Quote:
We weren't talking about neutral zone defence, but if you want to get into that, then a more skilled & visionary line would be better able to get through whatever trappy scheme you envision anyways while less creative players will be reduced to dump & chase.
We we talking about the impact of skilled forwards on the game, and their ability to impact a game is heavily influenced by the quality of the transition/breakout play behind them and how the opponent is playing them defensively in all three zones.

You are gravely mistaken if you think even the most skilled players can consistently create offense off the rush on their own against any defensively sound trapping team.

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02-19-2010, 03:51 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
So why stop at 3 lines? BRING 4 if you have them.

When you desperately need a goal against a hot goalie, you want every player out there being a gamebreaker who be your hero. You don't need plugs. You need to MAXIMIZE your chances by bringing ALL the most dangerous players your country has.

Canada couldn't get that goal last night, would one of the 5 missing guys beaten Hiller? I don't know, but they would've had a BETTER CHANCE TO than with the weaker guys they did bring.

Again in these short tournaments, they aren't NHL playoff series. You LOSE these tournaments when you run into a hot goalie, how do you minimize the chance of that happening? You bring ALL your best scorers to overwhelm him. Canada didnt.
This is such non-sense. If you brought a 4th line of Richards-Lecavalier-St. Louis they wouldn't be playing in the dying minutes anyways. Rolling 3 lines is way more than enough.

Calling Bergeron and Morrow plugs is just so embarassing on your part.

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02-19-2010, 03:54 PM
  #122
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This is such non-sense. If you brought a 4th line of Richards-Lecavalier-St. Louis they wouldn't be playing in the dying minutes anyways. Rolling 3 lines is way more than enough.

Calling Bergeron and Morrow plugs is just so embarassing on your part.
Easy, those guys aren't plugs, they're griiiiiiiiitt.

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Old
02-19-2010, 03:55 PM
  #123
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He's right guys.

Also, we should have only brought 6 D and 2 goalies so we could bring more scorers along. Everyone knows that more scorers are more effective with less ice time.

We should really just start only bringing scoring forwards. That way even if the other team got 8 goals, we would get 20.
Why bother bringing any defense? Or goalies for that matter? May as well take the top 19 Canadian scorers + Mike Green.

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02-19-2010, 03:58 PM
  #124
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Also, I must add, why are you only criticizing Canada and not the other teams for using the SAME strategy.

Russia - No Frolov, no Kovalev but instead guys like Zarapov and Fedorov

Sweden - No Huselius or Samuelsson but instead guys like Pahlsson and Modin

Slovakia - No Svatos but instead guys like Bartecko and Cibak

Finland - No Jussi Jokinen but instead guys like Immonen and Peltonen


The problem is right now that things aren't clicking yet. You have to give it time. In SLC we lost to Sweden and barely squeaked by Germany in round robin play. Take a deep breath, and relax ...

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02-19-2010, 04:00 PM
  #125
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My Quote:
Now I've said it before and I'll say it again stats do not tell the whole story, but they do tell some of it.

Your quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Oh cmon, +/- stats?? Chicago players have high + stat? Really?? Hey Jeff Schultz is +37, sign him up to Team Canada!
The key to my quote is PART OF THE STORY not READ ONLY PART OF WHAT I SAY no I don`t think Jeff Scultz should be there.

My quote:
Yzerman felt these guys did these INTANGIBLES the best and if you watched these guys play or at least get part of the story from nhl.com and check stats in faceoffs, +/-, Shootout, Hits, hell even blocked shots you'll see why these guys are there.

Maybe the color will help you read better

Yzerman watched them better then anyone, that`s why the team is made up as it is sir, can`t explain it better then that

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