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Hockey Canada's fundamental philosphy (roster talk/omissions)

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Old
02-19-2010, 04:07 PM
  #126
Albi34
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I don't think this guy is ever going to wrap his head around the fact that hockey is half offense, half defence (REGARDLESS OF IT BEING 1 GAME OR A 7 GAME SERIES, WTF DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH IT?)

but no of course we should have 4 pure scoring lines, so we can have stamkos and st louis on our top PK.....

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Old
02-19-2010, 04:33 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
For real. That and when people say "epic" in every sentence.
YES!!!!!!!!! These people are the worst...and need to seriously pull out of these words.

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Old
02-19-2010, 05:11 PM
  #128
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No he's right. The fact that ****ing Morrow, Seabrook, and Bergeron are on the team is ridiculous. I agree fully on this assessment.
Why have a defensively responsible guy like Seabrook or Bergeron to PK? After all - all you have to do to win the game is score a goal.

I think that a "one & done" tournament makes having a balance team even more important. Giving up just one bad goal can be the difference between advancing or getting embarrassed.

And like others have said - can we at least wait until the medal round before melting down? Somehow if Canada wins the gold (likely IMO), I don't think that a 3-2 SO win over the Swiss in the preliminaries is goign to carry much weight.

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Old
02-19-2010, 05:29 PM
  #129
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Steve Yzerman-Three Stanley Cups, 692 NHL goals, 1063 NHL assits, Olympic Gold Medal

Turboflex-Employee of Taco Bell, World of Warcraft Champion, Wears Camo Pants to hide his physical shortcoming

Based on their resumes, I'd say Stevie Y's more qualified for the GM position

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Old
02-19-2010, 05:45 PM
  #130
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I'll just make one point regarding Seabrook / Morrow / Richards / Toews / Bergeron:

Excluding World Championships and World Juniors, we've last been successful at the 2002 Olympics, 1991 Canada Cup, and 1987 Canada Cup. Those four teams were all constructed in a manner very similar to our current 2010 team.

2002 - Foote was our shut-down guy on defense. Up front, we had a line comprised of Shanahan/Nieuwendyk/Fleury/Peca that we counted on for a defensive, veteran presence and faceoffs and PK'ing, and a line of Smyth/Lindros/Nolan that brought a physical presence. The Lindros line didn't perform up to expectations IMO, but the Nieuwendyk/Peca line was pivotal in the gold medal game against the U.S. I would argue that, at that point in all their respective careers, none of those guys were amongst the top-13 pure point producers in Canada, maybe with the exception of Fleury (and Smyth was just coming into his own, but was seen more as a grinder).

1991 - Gretzky and the grinders. Corson, Graham, Tocchet, Sutter, a young Shanahan, 18-yr old Lindros, and Hawerchuk in a grinding role. That team pretty much beat the opposition into submission, with Gretz, Larmer and Mess handling the scoring. Steve Smith and Mark Tinordi on defense. Notable ommissions - Yzerman, Sakic, Oates (in the Hull & Oates era), Recchi.

1987 - A little more balanced than 1991, but we still saw Sutter, Tocchet, Hawerchuk, and Claude Lemieux getting prime-time minutes. The Sutter line turned the game around for us in game #3 against the Soviets. Crossman and Rochefort were our shut-down pairing.

The game has changed quite a bit since that era, obviously, and two guys named Gretzky and Lemieux are no longer around. But, all to say, we've been successful with this style in the past. What do we, as Canadians, do better than any other hockey country? IMO, we do the little things better (like win faceoffs, kill penalties, block shots), and we're physical. Assuming they can find chemistry, 9-10 high-scoring forwards, and 2-3 defensive-minded/physical forwards is what's needed to win a gold medal. Richards/Morrow/Bergeron fit that role to a "T" - they're the best Canadians at what they do in the NHL. A strong shut-down pairing is necessary, but the defense corps as a whole has to be defensively-minded, but able to move the puck. Hence, Seabrook and Keith. I really think this team is built to win a gold medal, even despite leaving Stamkos, MSL, and Green at home. Its all about execution from here on out, but Hockey Canada has given us a chance at the gold in my view, and that's all I ask of them.

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Old
02-19-2010, 05:48 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VoiceOfReason View Post
Steve Yzerman-Three Stanley Cups, 692 NHL goals, 1063 NHL assits, Olympic Gold Medal

Turboflex-Employee of Taco Bell, World of Warcraft Champion, Wears Camo Pants to hide his physical shortcoming

Based on their resumes, I'd say Stevie Y's more qualified for the GM position
lmfao, always pays to listen to the Voice of Reason

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Old
02-19-2010, 05:51 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
1987
IMO the most important quality that 1987 had was a complete lack of quit. They never stopped motoring.

 
Old
02-19-2010, 06:01 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
IMO the most important quality that 1987 had was a complete lack of quit. They never stopped motoring.
Yep, totally agree. Down to about 9-10 healthy forwards, and aside from Gretz, Mess and Mario probably overmatched talent-wise by the Soviets. But Sutter, Tocchet, Gilmour and Hawerchuk would simply not accept losing.

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Old
02-19-2010, 06:45 PM
  #134
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The idea of picking only offensive superstars reminds me of the 2003/2004 Colorado Avalanche. All the talent in the world, and it didn't get them very far. Selanne ended up getting something ridiculous like 35 points in 80 games.

3 scoring lines and a "checking" line (which has PPG players on it anyways) is the best idea. Most importantly, we have 4 lines that can play two ways.

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Old
02-19-2010, 06:49 PM
  #135
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We need more canadian players who play the european game with more skill ............


Steven Stamkos? Mike Green? Stamkos has the speed and skill to match up with these teams and also brings some size. Green is an offensive juggernaut from the back end personified. Good skater, great shot, good stick handler. You can't expect to blow out european teams with guys like Pronger, Niedermayer on your back end and guys like Morrow, Bergeron up front. Its a waste of roster space that can be given to more dynamic players. You don't need tons of grit to win against European teams. You need a whole lot of common sense, hockey sense and all three elements. Speed, Grit and skill.

I still think Canada will win this, but there is always going to be close games against teams like Switzerland, Latvia, Belarus, etc because we lack one important element that those teams have in abundance throughout the roster. SPEED. Having 4 or 5 guys that can skate well against a team that can have upwards of 10-15 that can absolutely fly makes a difference. There were several instances where the swiss simply used their speed to break up odd man canadian rushes up the ice. Sure Getzlaf, Perry,Thornton, Heatley,Morrow, Bergeron ,Iginla can get their....It's just pretty easy to break up rush's when these slugs are chugging up the ice. Norway almost held us scoreless for half the game because of Their speed. The only problem was they could not sustain that speed the whole game. Most likely due to a lack of proper training and Canadian size. I think Canada really needs to start concentrating on speed and skill at the grassroots level more so then Grit and size. The rest will fall into place. We already have more then enough grit and size.

In my opinion a team comprising with these players would wipe the floor with The current canadian roster:

Stamkos
Crosby
Getzlaf
St.louis
Nash
Toews
Marleau
Carter
Sharp
Green
Doughty
Kieth
Seabrooke
Boumeester
Weber
Niedermayer

a much more balanced roster with tons more speed to counter european teams with.

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Old
02-19-2010, 07:10 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Hockey Canada gets it wrong again. You'd think they'd learn, but nope, keep coming back with the same dumbass selection errors. I have been calling for months!!!

Hcoeky Canada builds their team like it's for a NHL best of 7 series, and to "stop" big bad team Russia. So they put on all these "gritty" 2 way checkers over more talented players. OH LOOK WHAT A SURPISE, Canada can't buy goals when they run into a hot goalie. What a great idea to bring guys like Seabrook, Morrow & Bergeron over top 15 NHL forwards!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrit didn't do much last night for them vs. Hiller, sure coulda used a nice unstoppable Stamkos or Green one timer from the face off circle tho!

Where have I seen this movie before? Oh right, all those other times that team Canada and other favourite teams lose when they run into hot goalies. At least when Sweden & Russia do it, they have already brought all their best guys (tho Russia maybe coulda used Kovalev's touch last night). Team Canada left 5 of the top 25 NHL forwards at home, including 3 in this year's top 10, and bring a bunch of guys way down the list instead because they are grrrrrrrrrity!! Forget that they are younger, have never won anything, and nowhere near as dominant as the guys staying at home.

Hockey Canada just doesn't get it, this isn't a best of 7 series, you come up short in scoring in ONE GAME and you're gone. Having a dominant stanely cup winning line Richards-Lecavalier-St Louis on your bench would sure be more likely to get something going than Morrow-Richards-Toews. Woulda been nice to have Stamkos' DEVESTATING one timer and Mike Green doing his thang when Canada was going like 1 for 8 on the PP too.

History repeating itself here, and the genius braintrust at hockey Canada is 100% to blame.
the only thing missing is the youtube version.

you need to find a girlfriend fast.

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Old
02-19-2010, 07:12 PM
  #137
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If I'm Gary Bettman and I want to pull the NHL players out of the 2014 Olympics in Russia, there is nothing I would want more than to have Canada and the U.S. hockey teams not make the medal rounds. His thinking would be that if the teams crap out, maybe the fans -especially the Canadian fans - would care less about having NHL players in the Olympics.

And just like so many have stated here and in the media, it would be so interesting to see what a Canadian "B' squad would accomplish (I'd want Fleury to play net on that team). But just as so many Europeans want the same for their beloved footballers, it will never happen in the Olympics.

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Old
02-19-2010, 07:39 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trexall View Post
In my opinion a team comprising with these players would wipe the floor with The current canadian roster:

Stamkos
Crosby
Getzlaf
St.louis
Nash
Toews
Marleau
Carter
Sharp
Green
Doughty
Kieth
Seabrooke
Boumeester
Weber
Niedermayer

a much more balanced roster with tons more speed to counter european teams with.
Wait, how does stacking a team with 'speed and skill' make it more balanced?

I think Morrow, etc were all oretty good last night.

Regardless, I would take the current team over the team you propose.

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Old
02-19-2010, 07:48 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trexall View Post
We need more canadian players who play the european game with more skill ............


Steven Stamkos? Mike Green? Stamkos has the speed and skill to match up with these teams and also brings some size. Green is an offensive juggernaut from the back end personified. Good skater, great shot, good stick handler. You can't expect to blow out european teams with guys like Pronger, Niedermayer on your back end and guys like Morrow, Bergeron up front. Its a waste of roster space that can be given to more dynamic players. You don't need tons of grit to win against European teams. You need a whole lot of common sense, hockey sense and all three elements. Speed, Grit and skill.

I still think Canada will win this, but there is always going to be close games against teams like Switzerland, Latvia, Belarus, etc because we lack one important element that those teams have in abundance throughout the roster. SPEED. Having 4 or 5 guys that can skate well against a team that can have upwards of 10-15 that can absolutely fly makes a difference. There were several instances where the swiss simply used their speed to break up odd man canadian rushes up the ice. Sure Getzlaf, Perry,Thornton, Heatley,Morrow, Bergeron ,Iginla can get their....It's just pretty easy to break up rush's when these slugs are chugging up the ice. Norway almost held us scoreless for half the game because of Their speed. The only problem was they could not sustain that speed the whole game. Most likely due to a lack of proper training and Canadian size. I think Canada really needs to start concentrating on speed and skill at the grassroots level more so then Grit and size. The rest will fall into place. We already have more then enough grit and size.

In my opinion a team comprising with these players would wipe the floor with The current canadian roster:

Stamkos
Crosby
Getzlaf
St.louis
Nash
Toews
Marleau
Carter
Sharp
Green
Doughty
Kieth
Seabrooke
Boumeester
Weber
Niedermayer

a much more balanced roster with tons more speed to counter european teams with.
So, you'll roll 3 lines (you only have 9 forwards on your proposed team), and you'd remove Boyle, who's been one of our top 3 defensemen so far this tournament (in my view anyway)? If you thought we got pushed around a lot by the Swiss last night (and no doubt we did) with our current roster, what would the Americans or Russians do to us with your proposed lineup? Carter and Sharp are very good players, but I like the guys we currently have better. Stamkos and St. Louis should arguably have made the team, but I can't see leaving them off make us or break us either way. We have more than enough scoring talent as it is, its just a matter of execution.

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Old
02-19-2010, 07:51 PM
  #140
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This team needs more Peverley.

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Old
02-19-2010, 07:58 PM
  #141
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LOL @ anyone who suggest Mike Green. I can only imagine how terrible he would have looked.

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Old
02-19-2010, 08:02 PM
  #142
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I love how people are all over Canada after two games. Do these people realize that our scorers who are better than Stamkos and St. Louis aren't scoring yet. Why do you think they would be so successful if guys like Crosby, Thornton and Getzlaf aren't producing? Same goes with mentioning Green's name - guys like Boyle, Keith and Seabrook are better NHL players than Green is, yet they are still adjusting. It's not like the guys who didn't make the team would just walk on and instantly be successful.

People always look for excuses when a team doesn't play very well. If we lose this tournament, it's not going to be because we didn't add Stamkos or Green to the team. Canada's roster has a ton of talent, now it's just a question of it they can gel and come together as a team.

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Old
02-19-2010, 08:20 PM
  #143
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LOL @ anyone who suggest Mike Green. I can only imagine how terrible he would have looked.
THIS...

As much as Mike Green is the embodiment of all that is offensive at the blueline.... he's not very responsible in his own end... I've been very very very happy with Drew Doughty so far instead... but that's just me

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Old
02-19-2010, 08:28 PM
  #144
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hmm nobody talks about the STARS not scoring for Canada. Instead of complaning about Bergeron (who won every defensive zone face-off he took) talk about players like Getzlaf, Nash and Staal who arent scoring...

What if Canada had lost one of those draws and Streit scored on a point shot.....Canada loses and this forum would be even less tolerable.

Lay off Bergeron please this guys has done his job perfectly which is more than a lot of Canadian players can say.

Oh and by the way the biggest problem with the team is the fans. Seriously you all need to lower your expectations. coming in you thought you would beat every team other than Russia by 5 or 6 goals....thats not how it works. you WON the game please

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Old
02-19-2010, 08:30 PM
  #145
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anyone else really sick of hearing the stupid term "fail" for everything?
Yes. Especially when people say 'epic fail'. Welcome to three years ago, people.

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Old
02-19-2010, 08:33 PM
  #146
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It is so funny that people wait in the weeds until the slightest bump in the road to surface.

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Old
02-19-2010, 08:34 PM
  #147
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Dumb thread.

/thread.

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Old
02-19-2010, 08:37 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Mancini0518 View Post
hmm nobody talks about the STARS not scoring for Canada. Instead of complaning about Bergeron (who won every defensive zone face-off he took) talk about players like Getzlaf, Nash and Staal who arent scoring...

What if Canada had lost one of those draws and Streit scored on a point shot.....Canada loses and this forum would be even less tolerable.

Lay off Bergeron please this guys has done his job perfectly which is more than a lot of Canadian players can say.

Oh and by the way the biggest problem with the team is the fans. Seriously you all need to lower your expectations. coming in you thought you would beat every team other than Russia by 5 or 6 goals....thats not how it works. you WON the game please
Agreed. Bergeron was not put on this team to score goals (although it would be nice if he did), he was put on this role for a very specific role and that is to win faceoffs and be reliable in our own zone.

Besides, look at other world tournaments like the WJC. Every Canadian WJ team has had scoring lines as well as one checking/energy lines. They won 5 straight gold medals. I don't recall anybody complaining about those checking lines. I know that the WJC's aren't the Olympics, but the fundamentals of making a team are still the same.

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Old
02-19-2010, 08:38 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Hockey Canada gets it wrong again. You'd think they'd learn, but nope, keep coming back with the same dumbass selection errors. I have been calling for months!!!

Hcoeky Canada builds their team like it's for a NHL best of 7 series, and to "stop" big bad team Russia. So they put on all these "gritty" 2 way checkers over more talented players. OH LOOK WHAT A SURPISE, Canada can't buy goals when they run into a hot goalie. What a great idea to bring guys like Seabrook, Morrow & Bergeron over top 15 NHL forwards!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrit didn't do much last night for them vs. Hiller, sure coulda used a nice unstoppable Stamkos or Green one timer from the face off circle tho!

Where have I seen this movie before? Oh right, all those other times that team Canada and other favourite teams lose when they run into hot goalies. At least when Sweden & Russia do it, they have already brought all their best guys (tho Russia maybe coulda used Kovalev's touch last night). Team Canada left 5 of the top 25 NHL forwards at home, including 3 in this year's top 10, and bring a bunch of guys way down the list instead because they are grrrrrrrrrity!! Forget that they are younger, have never won anything, and nowhere near as dominant as the guys staying at home.

Hockey Canada just doesn't get it, this isn't a best of 7 series, you come up short in scoring in ONE GAME and you're gone. Having a dominant stanely cup winning line Richards-Lecavalier-St Louis on your bench would sure be more likely to get something going than Morrow-Richards-Toews. Woulda been nice to have Stamkos' DEVESTATING one timer and Mike Green doing his thang when Canada was going like 1 for 8 on the PP too.

History repeating itself here, and the genius braintrust at hockey Canada is 100% to blame.

So they are 2-0 and aren't even out of the preliminary rounds and you have this to post? Got it.

Oh, and by the way...how did the Russian Superstars do last night? I was there and saw first hand what a team of superstars can do on any given night.


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Old
02-19-2010, 08:43 PM
  #150
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Oh and BTW, Bergeron has done his job perfectly. Winning all the faceoffs in OT on the right side then getting to the bench so the 'scorers' can choke...

He has also held up his end of the bargain by being great on the PK...

If anything it is time for Nash to wake up and realize he is at the Olympics. Maybe some of the 'scorers' should start 'scoring'. I know it is a novel idea, but they should try it in game 3.

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