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02-23-2010, 05:14 PM
  #176
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At this point, I think it's clear that some changes need to be made. I don't think a complete rebuild is necessary but there are definitely some players here that need to be shown the door.

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02-23-2010, 05:14 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post


I disagree. Collecting assets is never a bad thing. We don't have to move Crawford necessarily if this goes down, we can always move one of the other goalie prospects if Crawford does well. If you can strengthen any area of your organization, you do it. Moving out a weaker piece to accomodate a stronger piece is a good move, not a bad one.

It's not like I'm thrilled with the idea of a goalie prospect coming back, but I don't hate it either. Like I said, we don't know how the discussions about a prospect went. I'd prefer Crawford to a forward or D prospect depending on the prospect. Fact is, he's a good prospect, so it's not a bad thing to get him in the deal.
We don't have to move Crawford, but my point was at some point, if you're collecting assets at a position where ideally eventually you are going to have to move one of those guys, you can't always get true value back (whether that's Crawford, Salak, or Cheverie).

Again though, I don't hate the trade either. I'm just saying if I had my 'druthers, I would prefer a player of similar value at a different position.

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02-23-2010, 05:17 PM
  #178
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Zero, read the last sentence of my post that you quoted about Horton. I agree with you that we do have secondary scorers, but when Horton is the only real 1st line guy, that's a problem. And okay, several called it, I was among those. Then there were others saying "oh Ballard, McCabe, Seidenberg, etc... will all step up and be awesome, and Allen will be a stud, and our d will be way better than it was when Bouw was here."
Some were even delusional enough to state that Ballard was the shut-down dman last year, and not Bouw. It's rather funny watching the voice of objectivity take such a claim as "I called it..." so personally. I couldn't agree more with the assessment of our forward troubles.

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02-23-2010, 05:21 PM
  #179
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We have great secondary scorers on this team......problem is they're our primary scorers and the secondary scoring is relied on to come from 3rd and 4th line grinders. Just as we've had for so long, we have 2nd liners masquerading as 1st liners, 3rd liners as 2nd liners, and 4th liners as 3rd liners, AHLers as 4th liners. Same on defense, 2nd pairing guys as the 1st pairing, 3rd pairing guys as the 2nd pairing, but we do actually have solid #5 and #6 dmen because there isn't as big of a drop off. I'm telling you, what we lack is the first line primary scoring and first pairing defense. I called Ballard's regression....when you lose Bouw, you force Ballard into a role he's unable to handle. Then everyone has to move up and take more responsibility and thus, their weaknesses are further exposed. We don't need the complementary guys...we need the 1st pairing and 1st liners added.....then this team would be a cup contender. Horton is our only legitimate 1st line forward.
This. We've needed a 1st line forward for years now. We still refuse to pay for one in FA or trade for one.

And this organization wonders why this offense is always average at best.

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02-23-2010, 05:41 PM
  #180
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I would first put in the requirement that we MUST get rid of dead wood first and foremost. That's the following group: Stillman, Olesz, Kreps, Tarnasky, Ballard, McCabe, Campbell. I'm on the fence regarding Allen and Reinprecht. (Interestingly, this dead wood group includes our C and one A. Hmmm.)

I am sooo glad that you're not the GM, sorry.

Much as I'm unhappy with him, I don't trade Ballard. This is a kick in the teeth year for him but he's shown how much he cares, how hard he competes. He'll be better, stronger, wiser as a result. Dump him now (you won't get all that much) and you'll regret it.

Nor would I ever consider Stillman deadwood. I've been impressed with his play since he got over his rough patch early in the year. I do believe that he'll be of interest to other teams because he plays so intelligently and makes a good pass first time. Scores too. This is the kind of player I'd want on my team come playoff time.. If he was deadwood, why would teams take him?

Olesz. (see Ballard above). I would grit my teeth and stick it out with him for another year. Some guys just take longer to "get it." If i get a good offer for him, I make the move, though.

McCabe. Give me a break... He's #5 on scoring on the team and is your top scoring defenseman--and you call him deadwood? Sorry, I think you've missed this one.

Kreps, Tarnasky we agree on. I'm still of two minds on Campbell.

(It's nice to be able to argue about hockey again, isn't it?)

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02-23-2010, 06:18 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
get rid of dead wood first and foremost. That's the following group: Stillman, Olesz, Kreps, Tarnasky, Ballard, McCabe, Campbell.
Ballard...dead wood?

He's about to enter his prime, he's still young and we all know how good he can be. He's had a tough season, but trading him would be a huge mistake.

I'm expecting him to bounce back next year.

Just like Kulikov and Frolik, Ballard is not going anywhere

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02-23-2010, 07:25 PM
  #182
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Trading Horton to move up 5-6 places is a huge overpay. Didn't it only cost the Pens a 4th to move from 3rd to 1st in '03?

OT: This thread needs a photoshop of Deadwood (HBO show) with Panthers players. Someone make it happen. lol

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02-23-2010, 08:25 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by panthersfan751 View Post
At this point, I think it's clear that some changes need to be made. I don't think a complete rebuild is necessary but there are definitely some players here that need to be shown the door.
I agree 100%. Part of the problem is that Jacuqes Martin handed out multi-year overpriced deals like they were blow-pops, and now we're stuck with them unless we want to take it in the shorts during the bargaining process.


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02-23-2010, 10:52 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Panthers/Leafs fan View Post
I am sooo glad that you're not the GM, sorry.

Much as I'm unhappy with him, I don't trade Ballard. This is a kick in the teeth year for him but he's shown how much he cares, how hard he competes. He'll be better, stronger, wiser as a result. Dump him now (you won't get all that much) and you'll regret it.

Nor would I ever consider Stillman deadwood. I've been impressed with his play since he got over his rough patch early in the year. I do believe that he'll be of interest to other teams because he plays so intelligently and makes a good pass first time. Scores too. This is the kind of player I'd want on my team come playoff time.. If he was deadwood, why would teams take him?

Olesz. (see Ballard above). I would grit my teeth and stick it out with him for another year. Some guys just take longer to "get it." If i get a good offer for him, I make the move, though.

McCabe. Give me a break... He's #5 on scoring on the team and is your top scoring defenseman--and you call him deadwood? Sorry, I think you've missed this one.

Kreps, Tarnasky we agree on. I'm still of two minds on Campbell.

(It's nice to be able to argue about hockey again, isn't it?)
Sounds like you want to ice the same loser team next year again then. Well guess what -- I don't, after watching them pull such an epic fail as they did, and especially after buying into the new owners' willingness to NOT ice the same team next year, and after hearing the ACTUAL GM say there are a lot of people who need to be gone. Yet you want to get rid of just Kreps and Tarnasky. Wow. What a rework. It's as if a guy needs weight loss surgery, you'd probably propose to cut his finger nails.

I must be arguing only against people who work for the friggin Panthers, the JM edition. This is surreal.

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02-23-2010, 10:54 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by sinDer View Post
Ballard...dead wood?

He's about to enter his prime, he's still young and we all know how good he can be. He's had a tough season, but trading him would be a huge mistake.

I'm expecting him to bounce back next year.

Just like Kulikov and Frolik, Ballard is not going anywhere
If Ballard stays put, it's because of his contract, and not because of his level of play. He needs a friggin teleprompter to play hockey to avoid gaffes.

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02-24-2010, 12:01 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by VanMurph View Post
I agree 100%. Part of the problem is that Jacuqes Martin handed out multi-year overpriced deals like they were blow-pops, and now we're stuck with them unless we want to take it in the shorts during the bargaining process.
Unfortunately, that hasn't changed with Sexton around.

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02-24-2010, 12:05 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
Some were even delusional enough to state that Ballard was the shut-down dman last year, and not Bouw. It's rather funny watching the voice of objectivity take such a claim as "I called it..." so personally. I couldn't agree more with the assessment of our forward troubles.
i'm not sure what you're getting at here. feels like a pot shot but it has nothing to do with objectivity. just about the entire board had thrown jay under the bus late last year. i don't remember PR being one of those defending him or talking about his importance but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt. i certainly never claimed ballard was the shutdown guy so... again, no idea what you're getting at.

jay IS a good player to point at when you want to think about one player putting other guys into roles they can thrive in - with him here, guys like mccabe and ballard were able to relax and play their game. unfortunately (in case you haven't noticed), #1 Dmen and premier forwards don't grow on trees. imo, one guy up front could shift roles enough to have an impact. as or more important though (on this we agree) is figuring out who will take that pressure off of the blue-liners. if leo and seidenberg are dealt, how do we ice a reasonable defensive corps? kuli will be better next year but he's not ready yet to be that guy. i haven't looked at the FA crop but that's a bit of a concern.

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02-24-2010, 12:11 AM
  #188
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I agree 100%. Part of the problem is that Jacuqes Martin handed out multi-year overpriced deals like they were blow-pops, and now we're stuck with them unless we want to take it in the shorts during the bargaining process.
while that might be the trendy retort, it's really unfair and untrue. you can point to a deal or two, sure but is anyone complaining about horton? weiss? vokoun (he didn't sign vokie, of course, but took on the contract)? etc. no. those are very good values. he recognized that the franchise needed a bit of stability and tried to address that. there was a mild mistake or two in there but by and large, he did ok. the guys we have under contract are players, even if a couple are underperforming.

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02-24-2010, 12:16 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
while that might be the trendy retort, it's really unfair and untrue. you can point to a deal or two, sure but is anyone complaining about horton? weiss? vokoun (he didn't sign vokie, of course, but took on the contract)? etc. no. those are very good values. he recognized that the franchise needed a bit of stability and tried to address that. there was a mild mistake or two in there but by and large, he did ok. the guys we have under contract are players, even if a couple are underperforming.
I agree. I never really had a problem with the majority of Martin's moves. People seem to ignore his good ones now because he didn't end on good terms here, I guess.

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02-24-2010, 12:28 AM
  #190
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JM mismanaged our most valuable asset(Bouw) which has cost us dearly. The Jokinen trade was also a disappointment since Jokinen's value at the time was pretty high. So there are two huge assets he completely screwed up with. Two gigantic mistakes.

As for the prospect pool he has built a decent prospect pool. I'll give him credit for that but that's what GMs are supposed to do. You try to draft quality players and hope to make the organization stronger.

Matthias's hype has finally decreased to levels where everybody is off his bandwagon. Ellerby is a major work in progress and is probably a couple years away even though he'll get a shot next season. Those are the two marquee JM prospects you can credit him with. I'm not impressed.

As for the signings let us not forget he thought Olesz should get a contract worth more than Weiss. Now we are stuck with it and can only hope he turns it around. Horrible contract.

Kilger for 2nd? Thanks JM!
Eminger for a pick! Thanks JM!

JM was a pretty average GM at best but seems to get some praise only because the other GMs we had sucked so much.

Now Sexton has an opportunity to take a valuable asset and get a good return on it while it is at its peak value unlike when JM decided to keep Bouw when he knew he would walk for nothing.

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02-24-2010, 12:51 AM
  #191
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Kilger was traded for a 3rd round pick.

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02-24-2010, 01:25 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
JM mismanaged our most valuable asset(Bouw) which has cost us dearly. The Jokinen trade was also a disappointment since Jokinen's value at the time was pretty high. So there are two huge assets he completely screwed up with. Two gigantic mistakes.

As for the prospect pool he has built a decent prospect pool. I'll give him credit for that but that's what GMs are supposed to do. You try to draft quality players and hope to make the organization stronger.

Matthias's hype has finally decreased to levels where everybody is off his bandwagon. Ellerby is a major work in progress and is probably a couple years away even though he'll get a shot next season. Those are the two marquee JM prospects you can credit him with. I'm not impressed.

As for the signings let us not forget he thought Olesz should get a contract worth more than Weiss. Now we are stuck with it and can only hope he turns it around. Horrible contract.

Kilger for 2nd? Thanks JM!
Eminger for a pick! Thanks JM!

JM was a pretty average GM at best but seems to get some praise only because the other GMs we had sucked so much.

Now Sexton has an opportunity to take a valuable asset and get a good return on it while it is at its peak value unlike when JM decided to keep Bouw when he knew he would walk for nothing.
The Bouwmeester mess was the worst thing.

The Jokinen trade has turned out in our favor. Jokinen's trade value at the time wasn't as high as you're making it out to be, either.

The Matthias trade was a great trade anyway you put it. He turned damaged goods in Bertuzzi into a young prospect who at the time was projected to be even better than he is now. Now, he's a projected 2nd/3rd line player I'd say. That's not a bad deal.

Ellerby & Matthias are the two marquee prospects we can credit JM for? Really? I could be wrong...but I believe JM was the GM the year we drafted Markstrom. The year we drafted Repik. Thanks to him our prospect pool is no longer a joke.

The Olesz deal was potential based. But I'll definitely give you that. With that said, it goes both ways. He locked up all of our other real core players. (except for Booth, which I'm sure he would've done, anyway) That was nice.

The Kilger deal kinda sucked because he never showed up. Eminger deal was minor...that's just reaching.

He also got us a franchise goaltender...not to mention other minor deals that turned out well. Craig Anderson? Heck, his last move here was a nice one. Salak.

He wasn't perfect, but I'd take him over Sexton.
1 offseason down for Sexton, and he gave a 7th D man a multi-year contract, and he gave a 32 year old backup goalie 3 years, when there was no need for such a deal. That's about 3 million in cap that we could've used for something useful. I still don't get how he signed Koistinen, and then basically went back so quickly on his initial thoughts. If you're going to sign someone to that type of deal...you might as well show a little more trust in him/see if he improves.

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02-24-2010, 03:15 AM
  #193
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You can't fault JM for how Olli was traded, Panther fans know that Cohen stepped in and stopped him from moving Olli. That's what made Olli think he could get Martin fired. Not JM's fault, point that finger at Cohen. And I think we can all figure out who's fault it was that Bouw wasn't moved, or allowed to be, until last season. Jm may have been finally given a green light at the deadline last year, but I'm more than certain he told Martin not to move Bouw. He did it to Olli.

Anyone jumping off Matthias' bandwagon never understood the wagon anyway. The kid has started slow in every new league he's been in and then got hot after a year or even two. Add in his getting booed last season, and the picture becomes a bit more clear.

Erick did well explaining the draftees by Martin.

Still don't see how you can blame JM for Kilger. Kilger had just come off a leave of absence and was back with the team. GMs aren't allowed to call a player and see if they've worked things out or if they're going to report to the team if they trade for them. How is any of that Martin's fault???

Eminger was brought in because Boynton was falling like a lead balloon. May not have been a good trade, but he was once traded for a 1st, so JM's not the only one who thought he'd do better than he currently is.

Further, the Olli trade wasn't that bad a trade, Ballard's having a bad year. It happens. We also got a good player in the draft with the pick. Bert was injured when traded for 2 picks and Matthias. How's that bad? He got McCabe AND a pick for Van Ryn. Bad trade? nope. He got Vokoun, which at the time was a glaring issue on the team, as we saw with Auld and Belfour comboing, and struggling at times.

He certainly could have done some things better/differently, but he did leave the team better than he found it. Better prospect pool and better players on the team. If you want to point the finger at someone, point it at Cohen. Be mad at JM, fine, but you have to point the finger at Cohen as well.

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02-24-2010, 03:21 AM
  #194
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Still blame Cohen more than I blame Sexton. Sexton still brought in Seidenberg, Leopold, Reinprect, Oreskovich, etc. He was dealing with a limited cap, thanks again...to Cohen. Just had a year where we missed the playoffs by half a point...and he goes and puts a limit on the cap. Marvelous.

Anyway, there's a lot of blame to passed around, but one guy was here the whoooooooooooole time. Cohen!

Say what you want, but him butting his nose in with Olli, constantly meddling with the cap, yeah, I blame Cohen! Oh, and bringing Keenan in twice, when it was no secret that he and Luongo didn't get along? Cohen.


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02-24-2010, 08:05 AM
  #195
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Still blame Cohen more than I blame Sexton. Sexton still brought in Seidenberg, Leopold, Reinprect, Oreskovich, etc. He was dealing with a limited cap, thanks again...to Cohen. Just had a year where we missed the playoffs by half a point...and he goes and puts a limit on the cap. Marvelous.

Anyway, there's a lot of blame to passed around, but one guy was here the whoooooooooooole time. Cohen!

Say what you want, but him butting his nose in with Olli, constantly meddling with the cap, yeah, I blame Cohen! Oh, and bringing Keenan in twice, when it was no secret that he and Luongo didn't get along? Cohen.

I point the finger squarely at Dudley and Keenan for the mess we're in now.

Dudley must be the only GM in NHL history to blow TWO #1 picks in a row by first not taking Nash, and then not taking Staal. And he also wasted a top 10 pick on Taticek of all people and somehow found another bust in Anthony Stewart in 2003. That's 4 1st round picks in just two years where he messed up. And Keenan was only slightly better with his drafting while he also made bad trades.

Those two are the reason we're not an elite team. Had they done their job properly, we'd be a consistent playoff team. Horrible doesn't even begin to describe how much those two hurt this organization because we're still feeling the effects years later of their mismanagement.

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02-24-2010, 08:15 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Still blame Cohen more than I blame Sexton. Sexton still brought in Seidenberg, Leopold, Reinprect, Oreskovich, etc. He was dealing with a limited cap, thanks again...to Cohen. Just had a year where we missed the playoffs by half a point...and he goes and puts a limit on the cap. Marvelous.

Anyway, there's a lot of blame to passed around, but one guy was here the whoooooooooooole time. Cohen!

Say what you want, but him butting his nose in with Olli, constantly meddling with the cap, yeah, I blame Cohen! Oh, and bringing Keenan in twice, when it was no secret that he and Luongo didn't get along? Cohen.

He never ran the team, lol... Not like Siegal and Viner say they are going to do...

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02-24-2010, 09:19 AM
  #197
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i'm not sure what you're getting at here. feels like a pot shot but it has nothing to do with objectivity. just about the entire board had thrown jay under the bus late last year. i don't remember PR being one of those defending him or talking about his importance but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt. i certainly never claimed ballard was the shutdown guy so... again, no idea what you're getting at.
The objectivity joke was unrelated to the rest of the short post. Just a poke at you showing your subject/I quite easily, taking offense to someone claiming to have said something you had also said.

The Ballard as shutdown guy was stated by Rob Zepp (not the goalie, the hf boards member).

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02-24-2010, 09:22 AM
  #198
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i agree keenan and dudley did irreparable damage to this team!!!!! jm completely mismanaged bouw!!!!!!!!

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02-24-2010, 10:04 AM
  #199
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Honestly, no matter who we want to blame for the misfortunes of this team, most of those people are gone now. I guess I am being naive but I want to give Sexton and our new ownership a chance to right this ship. I am not going to complain about last years FA because Cohen was still in charge and I am sure he limited Sexton's ability to sign some good talent. We don't have Cohen here anymore, no more Dudley,Keenan, or Martin. it's all new people who seem to be fed-up with our current status and ready to move forward so I say, let's give em a real chance. We have a good core of players with good prospects in the works, let's see what happens.

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02-24-2010, 10:33 AM
  #200
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Honestly, no matter who we want to blame for the misfortunes of this team, most of those people are gone now. I guess I am being naive but I want to give Sexton and our new ownership a chance to right this ship. I am not going to complain about last years FA because Cohen was still in charge and I am sure he limited Sexton's ability to sign some good talent. We don't have Cohen here anymore, no more Dudley,Keenan, or Martin. it's all new people who seem to be fed-up with our current status and ready to move forward so I say, let's give em a real chance. We have a good core of players with good prospects in the works, let's see what happens.
I am sure everyone is going to give the new owners/Sexton a chance to show that they are different, but its just the fact that we have heard the same thing over, and over, and over! I am with you though, I am going to trust this new group, and see what they can do with this team.

To what someone mentioned earlier about screwing up our top picks a few years back, imagine if this team had Nash and Staal, rather than Bouwmeester and Horton, or was it Weiss. Regardless, whats done is done. Sexton did a good job given the circumstances he was in, so lets see what he can do with the leash let loose a little.

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