HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Joe getting bashed!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-23-2010, 11:51 AM
  #51
KzooShark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by coooldude View Post
Calgary game 4, was it?
Ah yes. I stand partially corrected. He broke a tie by tipping a shot in front of the net.

He's done similar things early in the last two Detroit games.

I don't expect or want him to go all Holmstrom/Smyth on us, but it wouldn't hurt if he set up shop or crash the net like that during a couple shifts each game. He gets blasted because he spends entire periods holding the puck and looking for the perfect pass through 3 defenders. The bigger the stage, the more ugly goals seem to matter, and he doesn't adjust his thinking accordingly.

KzooShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 12:11 PM
  #52
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 18,837
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by coooldude View Post
Calgary game 4, was it?
I disagree. Joe is deceptive as they get. If it wasn't for Joe I don't think we'd be guaranteed a playoff spot in the first place. Plus Joe is a tremendous distraction for the other team and even when he isn't scoring points (which he usually is, at a steady pace) he is opening up time and space.

Joe has attitude issues, I won't deny it. He is too passive and to easy going. Those two attributes do not a champion make.

I think after these playoffs the way we perceive this team will change and thereby the way we perceive the off-season changes. What I am getting at is even though I was one of the biggest critics of the Heatley deal initially, I think it may turn out to be one of the best moves (along with Boyle) that DW has made. I also think it may be leading up to larger changes, look at the facts:

1) DW acquire Campbell at the deadline. Campbell add's another player with loads of skill but no passion. He is not re-signed.

2) DW gives Roenick a shot at redeeming himself. Why? I don't think even DW believed his skill was going to be a difference maker. As much as we all loved Roenick he was a bottom 6 player at the time we got him. What he did bring was a competitive spirit this team has lacked for many years. His single handed victory over Calgary is one of the great Shark's moments in history.

3a) DW acquires Boyle. Boyle is an instant success. He plays every shift with fire in his eyes and has more passion than anyone on the team.

3b) DW brings in Blake. He brings spirit, and he brings passion. Aside from his injury last season he always steps up in big games and although not the spark Boyle is his competitive spirit is obvious.

4) Heatley. Why bring in a guy in the midst of a huge media nightmare? Heatley is a super-star and he is a highly competitive super-star.

So what's going on here? I think we are seeing DW phasing out our super-stars that simply do not have the winning attitude. Smaller changes like Goc for Nichol, Plihal/Grier for Ortmeyer/Malhotra are not skill changes but heart transplants. DW see's that the core of this team is rotten and is steadily swapping out vital organs. Even Ehrhoff was benched last season for unknown issues and I have to wonder if DW simply felt Ehrhoff didn't have the right attitude to get the job done.

Does this mean we've seen the end of Marleau as a Shark? Or even Thornton? I think it's in the realm of possibility. If DW thinks these guys are still part of the problem he now has some viable replacements (he won't be leaving the team super-starless).

hockeyball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 12:13 PM
  #53
one2gamble
Registered User
 
one2gamble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,061
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KzooShark View Post
Ah yes. I stand partially corrected. He broke a tie by tipping a shot in front of the net.

He's done similar things early in the last two Detroit games.

I don't expect or want him to go all Holmstrom/Smyth on us, but it wouldn't hurt if he set up shop or crash the net like that during a couple shifts each game. He gets blasted because he spends entire periods holding the puck and looking for the perfect pass through 3 defenders. The bigger the stage, the more ugly goals seem to matter, and he doesn't adjust his thinking accordingly.
I dont necessarily NEED him going to the net every shift. He just has to mix his game up. Go to the front of the net, Shoot the god damn puck and pass the puck. Have a multi-dimensional game. Right now he only does 1 thing and thats pass.

one2gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 12:17 PM
  #54
SonomaShark
The sidebar is suck
 
SonomaShark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
If DW thinks these guys are still part of the problem he now has some viable replacements (he won't be leaving the team super-starless).
You want heart and drive? How about Marleau and Thornton for Ovechkin?

(Picture Murray and Ovechkin on the ice at the same time... The Great Wall of Smackdown!)

SonomaShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 12:46 PM
  #55
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 18,837
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBaySharksFan View Post
You want heart and drive? How about Marleau and Thornton for Ovechkin?

(Picture Murray and Ovechkin on the ice at the same time... The Great Wall of Smackdown!)
Just to be clear, I'm not necessarily endorsing anything at the moment, just looking at the pattern.

hockeyball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 01:55 PM
  #56
jwhitesj
Registered User
 
jwhitesj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 3,095
vCash: 500
I remember Joe Thorntons line putting on decent pressure, cycling the puck down low, throwing it up high to Shea Webber, followed by a bad shot or turnover by Webber. In the final 30 seconds, replace Webber with Perry who did the same thing, but made it even worse by letting Kessler beat him to the puck even though he had position on Kessler. As far as heart, Joe Thornton allways back checks hard and is often one of the first players back in the defensive zone after a turnover. Joe Thornton has made a ton of briliant defensive plays over the few years that he has been a Shark. The criticism is undeserved, especially the criticism following the Canada -USA game.

jwhitesj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 02:42 PM
  #57
Lars Bjorn
Registered User
 
Lars Bjorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 459
vCash: 500
I think the point that easy was trying to make is that Jumbo has mostly been getting the superstar treatment from the SJ management, coaches, and fans since he's arrived, as far as I can tell at least, and that makes it more difficult to create a hard working team oriented approach. Whether the emphasis is the best conditioning, the most film study, the greatest dedication to systems, you can't defer too much to any few players before it lessens to the whole team's chance of playoff success against the best competition in the big moments.

Lars Bjorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 03:38 PM
  #58
one2gamble
Registered User
 
one2gamble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,061
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Bjorn View Post
I think the point that easy was trying to make is that Jumbo has mostly been getting the superstar treatment from the SJ management, coaches, and fans since he's arrived, as far as I can tell at least, and that makes it more difficult to create a hard working team oriented approach. Whether the emphasis is the best conditioning, the most film study, the greatest dedication to systems, you can't defer too much to any few players before it lessens to the whole team's chance of playoff success against the best competition in the big moments.
I think everyone is tired of his preferential treatment, but really where are we going to prove that hes actually getting it?

The media doesnt beat on anyone unless it comes from the coaches mouth (Im looking at you RW) and the fans are largely happy to have a competitive team.

There is somewhat of a fan shift over the last few years. Expectations are higher and people are getting frustrated but what is it exactly you guys expect fans to do. Talk **** to him at Sharks Ice? Pressure has to come from his team and his coaching staff. If the staff is giving him preferential treatment the team has the wrong staff. If Doug Wilson is ordering it, the Sharks have the wrong GM.

one2gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 04:18 PM
  #59
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
I think everyone is tired of his preferential treatment, but really where are we going to prove that hes actually getting it?

The media doesnt beat on anyone unless it comes from the coaches mouth (Im looking at you RW) and the fans are largely happy to have a competitive team.

There is somewhat of a fan shift over the last few years. Expectations are higher and people are getting frustrated but what is it exactly you guys expect fans to do. Talk **** to him at Sharks Ice? Pressure has to come from his team and his coaching staff. If the staff is giving him preferential treatment the team has the wrong staff. If Doug Wilson is ordering it, the Sharks have the wrong GM.
You bring up excellent points and LB was excellent in rewording what I was trying to say. My point was not to bash Heatley, JT, et al, but to start thinking in terms of the culture that is being promoted.

I agree that we can't know what goes on behind closed doors, but when allusions are made to it being JT's team that is certainly a hint. My point was to aim at fans who succumb to the marketing of superstars, to point at management who promotes them for the money rather than the good of the team and to point at the culture that supports this elevation. Canada's upsets in the last two Olympics point at the issues. It is a hubris of their culture (and ours as well) to put emphasis on the wrong things. When a team or other organized group is an underdog (less than top in ranking), more appropriate emphases are made. It is really hard to break cultural norms which is what needs to be done to optimize results. Humility goes a long way to making corrections.

A corollary point is that it takes some very strong individuals to overcome the promotion and go about their business as if it wasn't a culture of superstars.

Keep in mind that part of the issue is the expectation of the players and their agents. Part of the issue of management treatment is that a player can move on if management does not sufficiently bow to his wishes whether they are for the good of the team or not. There is a breaking point where the value of player's skills and the deficits in team culture necessary to keep that player outweigh that player's value to the team. It is a murky pool of conflicting interests at times.


Last edited by SJeasy: 02-23-2010 at 06:04 PM.
SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 05:16 PM
  #60
Lars Bjorn
Registered User
 
Lars Bjorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 459
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
I think everyone is tired of his preferential treatment, but really where are we going to prove that hes actually getting it?

The media doesnt beat on anyone unless it comes from the coaches mouth (Im looking at you RW) and the fans are largely happy to have a competitive team.

There is somewhat of a fan shift over the last few years. Expectations are higher and people are getting frustrated but what is it exactly you guys expect fans to do. Talk **** to him at Sharks Ice? Pressure has to come from his team and his coaching staff. If the staff is giving him preferential treatment the team has the wrong staff. If Doug Wilson is ordering it, the Sharks have the wrong GM.
As far as how to prove JT receives preferential treatment, I think there was a very convincing body of proof under the RW era. He called out many players but almost never JT. He said in public quotes JT could basically design his own PP, even when at that point after his first year it was becoming stagnant and predictable. Everyone has been saying for years JT needs to shoot more, and he still kind of laughs off the criticism and says he'll do what he wants. He is not known for his conditioning and rarely appears to use all his physical tools. It hasn't been reported or repeated on these boards, but I personally felt about halfway through last year JT stopped going in front of the net after being so successful with it the first half and it was noticeable to me. The GM has repeatedly tinkered with the roster which suggests the problem was the supporting cast rather than the mental makeup, or that the chemistry problems came from other places. Certain players who have been brought in had the outside rep as being good locker room guys, etc, but I have never read any actual quotes from them that gave me any sense they did confront him on any issue.

Lars Bjorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 05:32 PM
  #61
bigwillie
Registered User
 
bigwillie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Country: United States
Posts: 6,123
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to bigwillie
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGooooch View Post
This is probably my favorite picture on all the internets.

bigwillie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 07:23 PM
  #62
JeremyTB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 927
vCash: 500
Crosby played just as bad in game 2 vs Switzerland as Thornton did game 3 vs the U.S but nobody mentions that. A matter of fact Crosby somehow came out looking like the Hero in that game vs Swiss and Joe was one of Canada's best players that game. They also don't mention that Crosby was -3 in that game vs the U.S. I just see a double standard.

JeremyTB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 07:33 PM
  #63
KzooShark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyTB View Post
Crosby played just as bad in game 2 vs Switzerland as Thornton did game 3 vs the U.S but nobody mentions that. A matter of fact Crosby somehow came out looking like the Hero in that game vs Swiss and Joe was one of Canada's best players that game. They also don't mention that Crosby was -3 in that game vs the U.S. I just see a double standard.


Having one of those gives him leniency in the media.

KzooShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 08:41 PM
  #64
dwood16
Registered User
 
dwood16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: L.A.
Country: United States
Posts: 1,859
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhitesj View Post
I remember Joe Thorntons line putting on decent pressure, cycling the puck down low, throwing it up high to Shea Webber, followed by a bad shot or turnover by Webber. In the final 30 seconds, replace Webber with Perry who did the same thing, but made it even worse by letting Kessler beat him to the puck even though he had position on Kessler. As far as heart, Joe Thornton allways back checks hard and is often one of the first players back in the defensive zone after a turnover. Joe Thornton has made a ton of briliant defensive plays over the few years that he has been a Shark. The criticism is undeserved, especially the criticism following the Canada -USA game.
You are actually right, kinda. It isn't heart that he is lacking.

I think it's actually that he is too talented. You know how people like to stereotype superstar athletes as underachievers or under-performers... well he is the actual classic case of this imo.

He is use to racking up assists quite easily against inferior teams. It seems like he gets the SOFTEST POINTS in the league every year. Even those few beautiful no-look passes are usually turnovers 100 times before they connect.

He is just use to dominating weak defenses and when the playoffs hit there are no more weak, or lackadaisical defenses to exploit. Everyone is a playoff team, plus they are all skating harder than they usually do. Most great players are great because they play playoff type hockey all year (like Sid and Ovie) but Joe doesn't and that just happens to be his style...which is a very, very, sad thing

P.s. the Sharks (joe specifically) are one of the few teams i've seen who don't push the play off turnovers and like to slow things down and regroup most of the time. Not playoff hockey.

dwood16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 08:56 PM
  #65
SJGoalie32
Registered User
 
SJGoalie32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: TealTown, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by coooldude View Post
Calgary game 4, was it?
That game epitomizes both the greatness of and the frustration with Joe Thornton.

You see what he's capable of in moments like that.....and then for some inexplicable reason, he never does it again.

I don't blame the players who can't and are incapable of consistently making the great plays for not doing so. I blame the ones who CAN do so, but don't.

Hard to blame Marcel Goc for not scoring 7 goals in each round of the playoffs when you have a supposed perennial MVP candidate making $7+ million a year who CAN make plays like the one he did in Calgary, whose team desperately needs him to do more things like that in the playoffs, and yet who consistently doesn't do them (not CAN'T do them, but DOESN'T do them). That's my frustration with him.

Or as Joe Thornton once said when Drew asked him how to beat Marty Turco in a regular season game, "Like you've got to do against any good goalie, work the puck around, create traffic in front of the crease, and fire lots of pucks on net."

When he said that, I couldn't help but think, "Okay, well YOU obviously don't do two of those three things....."

SJGoalie32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 09:02 PM
  #66
Thresher
Registered User
 
Thresher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: HECK
Country: United States
Posts: 9,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KzooShark View Post
Stanley Cup

Having one of those gives him leniency in the media.
I think that goes for the Ducks, too - who have been underwhelming to say the least. They don't get endless posts and threads dedicated to their 'choking' as they've proven more than capable of capturing a championship. Having your name etched on the Cup acts as a nice little 'get out of jail free' card.

Thresher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2010, 09:02 PM
  #67
Big Kjell
Registered User
 
Big Kjell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Francisco
Country: Sweden
Posts: 192
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Big Kjell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmshrkx View Post
Just read a thread on the olympics blasting Jumbo Joe! I have to admit he doesn't look very good.
Deservingly. I've finally lost it with him. He shows up for games that don't matter and teams that are no good. He scored against Germany. Whoo hoo!

I've finally given up on Joe T. maybe now he will surprise me and with the Cup

Big Kjell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2010, 12:09 AM
  #68
hansonhanson*
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 19
vCash: 500
Heres what I think:



Ghrhhhaaabbblllllppphhhhhhh!!!!!aaaaaasaaaaaaaaaaa rrrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

hansonhanson* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2010, 01:30 AM
  #69
Fatturdmanshark
Kiss my Fins
 
Fatturdmanshark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: New Mexico
Country: United States
Posts: 1,261
vCash: 500
JT off the shnide

Fatturdmanshark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2010, 05:23 PM
  #70
19sharks19
Registered User
 
19sharks19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: T.O. to S.J. & back
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,030
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brokencow View Post
While Joe himself did not look impressive against Team USA, the Shark line of Marleau-Thornton-Heatley has 5 of Canada's 13 goals in the tournament and almost always sustains preassure in the opposition's defensive zone.

If people want to cry about lack of results I can understand that, but it's not like Thornton is on the ice when Canada is scored on.

There were far worse players for Canada yesterday.
So true. Being here in T.O. and listening to all sports radio while I work, i've heard so much of the talk the last few days BUT, not as much on big Joe per say but quite a lot on the likes of Pronger, Nash, Morrow, Brodeur, Richards, Bergeron and a few others but, much of what I've heard is yes, some criticism but, many in the media have called the Sharks line as being pretty steady. True stuff. Nash is getting some really big ribbings up here though, i've heard loads of talk on Nash though, more so than most on the team.

We have now 6 of the 22 goals scored and, with Joe performing usually well here;
http://www.ctvolympics.ca/hockey/sta...lFaceOffs.html

it's obvious he has been fairly steady. So, not much to nit pick on our Sharks.

19sharks19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2010, 08:11 PM
  #71
Suddenly Zyuzin
Registered User
 
Suddenly Zyuzin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Edison, New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 592
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyTB View Post
Crosby played just as bad in game 2 vs Switzerland as Thornton did game 3 vs the U.S but nobody mentions that. A matter of fact Crosby somehow came out looking like the Hero in that game vs Swiss and Joe was one of Canada's best players that game. They also don't mention that Crosby was -3 in that game vs the U.S. I just see a double standard.
Crosby hasn't been good, but he doesn't bring a reputation of choking over and over with him. So he gets pass for having a bad tournament. Joe on the other hand chokes every big series he plays in without fail. You can't excuse that by saying, "Oh someone else didn't play well too". That someone else has shown that he can play well when it matters. Joe has never done that.

Suddenly Zyuzin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2010, 08:50 PM
  #72
Blades of Glory
Troll Captain
 
Blades of Glory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 18,369
vCash: 500
Thornton had an outstanding game tonight. Even Canadian fans are admitting it. That's when you know **** has hit the fan. They are admitting Joe Thornton played very well.

Blades of Glory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2010, 08:57 PM
  #73
Kitten Mittons
Registered User
 
Kitten Mittons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Francisco
Country: Armenia
Posts: 47,782
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
Thornton had an outstanding game tonight. Even Canadian fans are admitting it. That's when you know **** has hit the fan. They are admitting Joe Thornton played very well.
Every time I watch the Shark line play, I just hope Thornton would not slow down going to the net, would actually shoot, but nope... I also hope Marleau to snipe one in - 3rd leading goalscorer in the NHL my ass...

Kitten Mittons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2010, 09:20 PM
  #74
Blades of Glory
Troll Captain
 
Blades of Glory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 18,369
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Every time I watch the Shark line play, I just hope Thornton would not slow down going to the net, would actually shoot, but nope... I also hope Marleau to snipe one in - 3rd leading goalscorer in the NHL my ass...
Marleau looks like Cheechoo right now. Pounding pucks into the goalie's chest.

Blades of Glory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2010, 10:24 PM
  #75
one2gamble
Registered User
 
one2gamble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,061
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
Marleau looks like Cheechoo right now. Pounding pucks into the goalie's chest.
hes been doing that or going high for almost three weeks now

one2gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:44 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.