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Manitoba Moose / MTS Centre group talking to NHL - Part II

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02-23-2010, 11:16 PM
  #1
Fugu
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Manitoba Moose / MTS Centre group talking to NHL - Part II

Continuation of discussion of efforts to get an NHL team in Winnipeg.

Part I: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=640857

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02-23-2010, 11:48 PM
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I'm not quite sure why the past page or so of the last thread was framed as Balsillie vs. Chipman as providing any proof that either way is better.

1) The NHL stated that the Coyotes should first be offered to Winnipeg if relocation would be necessary.

2) The NHL stated that they valued the Hamilton/Southern Ontario market as worth $350 million (i may be mistaken as to the actual number, but i recall this figure).

The NHL obviously has interest in both markets.

Does anyone really think Balsillie "quietly" showing interest would've resulted in a team in Hamilton already ?

Does anyone really think Chipman "loudly" banging his drums would've resulted in a team in Winnipeg already ?

It's a process. Both are obviously deserving and feasible markets as evidenced by the NHL's public statements. I think this fact is ultimately what this thread is about.

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02-23-2010, 11:59 PM
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bromine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
I'm not quite sure why the past page or so of the last thread was framed as Balsillie vs. Chipman as providing any proof that either way is better.

1) The NHL stated that the Coyotes should first be offered to Winnipeg if relocation would be necessary.

2) The NHL stated that they valued the Hamilton/Southern Ontario market as worth $350 million (i may be mistaken as to the actual number, but i recall this figure).

The NHL obviously has interest in both markets.

Does anyone really think Balsillie "quietly" showing interest would've resulted in a team in Hamilton already ?

Does anyone really think Chipman "loudly" banging his drums would've resulted in a team in Winnipeg already ?

It's a process. Both are obviously deserving and feasible markets as evidenced by the NHL's public statements. I think this fact is ultimately what this thread is about.
Good point. It is a fact that no one has successfully landed any franchise since the talk of relocation and expansion was revived a few years ago. So, it's true, we really don't know what actually works in getting a team.

On a side note, while it really is meaningless, I get a kick out of the fact that this thread is onto it's second part. It's a sign that the subject of the NHL in Winnipeg is worthy of serious discussion, and not merely disregarded or scoffed at. We've (Return of the Jets believers) come a long way from a few years ago...

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02-24-2010, 09:15 AM
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One more week, and we should 'supposedly' hear that big announcement about the Thrashers being moved to Winnipeg.

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02-24-2010, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by marknuck311 View Post
One more week, and we should 'supposedly' hear that big announcement about the Thrashers being moved to Winnipeg.
At this point, I'm almost certain that rumor got started because someone in the media (ie. Scott Taylor) got wind that a group from Winnipeg might be in discussions with the NHL to relocate a team, and simply assumed it was regarding the Thrashers because of what Al Strachan said.

It seems, at least to me, far more likely that they would be discussing the Coyotes, if they were in discussions at all.

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02-24-2010, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by marknuck311 View Post
One more week, and we should 'supposedly' hear that big announcement about the Thrashers being moved to Winnipeg.
I would think the announcement about Phoenix or Atlanta (if rumour is true) will come after the team's season is over, usually in March time frame.. Saying that, there is a lot of precedent set of teams announcing they have been sold for relocation before the season ended. Then it goes to BOG for approval which happens in May June timeframe.

This is from "Casualfan" in this forum:

Jets
Announced: December 1995 (Specifically, 1st week of Dec 1995)
Relocated for: 1996-1997 Season
Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=6765,553654


Stars
Announced: March 1993 (Specifically, March 10 1993)
Relocated for: 1993-1994 Season
Source:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...54/1/index.htm


Whalers
Announced: March 1997 (Specifically, March 25 1997)
Relocated for: 1997-1998 Season
Source: http://www.trincoll.edu/NR/rdonlyres...noonhockey.pdf


Nordiques
Announced: May 1995
Relocated for: 1995-1996 Season
Source: http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...=M1ARTM0010425


Last edited by Pegger5: 02-24-2010 at 11:34 AM.
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02-24-2010, 11:43 AM
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And unlike last year, the NHL knows before January -- of the possibility of a move -- so can make contingency plans WRT creating 10-11 schedule.

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02-24-2010, 12:45 PM
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Does anyone have the article where a BOG source told one of the Toronto papers that Winnipeg calls the NHL every day? I'm pretty sure that's a good sign of their interest.

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02-24-2010, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Does anyone have the article where a BOG source told one of the Toronto papers that Winnipeg calls the NHL every day? I'm pretty sure that's a good sign of their interest.
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/274134

It's mentioned in the last paragraph.

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02-24-2010, 01:07 PM
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All I know is, I've already been asked by a large accounting firm here in Winnipeg, If I was interested in season tickets for next year

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02-24-2010, 01:12 PM
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From the linked article:

Quote:
RETURN TRIP FOR JETS? With the Canadian dollar's recent surge there's been debate over the prospect of the NHL returning to Winnipeg. "The people in Winnipeg call the league pretty much every day about a team, more than anybody else," one high-ranking hockey source says. If the NHL does decide to add another team in Manitoba, things would seem in place for a smooth return. The old Winnipeg Arena was demolished a decade ago and the $133 million (Canadian) MTS Centre, which seats 15,003 for hockey, opened three years ago. The NHL earlier this year contacted Canadian regulators to reinforce its trademark on the Winnipeg Jets name.
As someone who doesn't live in Winnipeg, I honestly can't see anyone (outside of Hamilton/Kansas City/Las Vegas and of course Phoenix) who wouldn't welcome the return of the Jets to Winnipeg. If you're a hockey fan in general, you couldn't help but feel happy for them. Not only would they get an NHL team again, but they'd get their JETS again.


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02-24-2010, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by aqsw View Post
All I know is, I've already been asked by a large accounting firm here in Winnipeg, If I was interested in season tickets for next year
Really? More details, please!

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02-24-2010, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Steen View Post
I would think the announcement about Phoenix or Atlanta (if rumour is true) will come after the team's season is over, usually in March time frame..
For the sake of the team(s) in question, I certainly hope that the announcement would be made at the end of the season. You've got the Thrashers, sans their star power in Kovalchuk, fighting a losing battle for eighth in the east, and a confirmed move for the fall would have then ushers at Philips Arena outnumbering the fans. Then you've got the Coyotes playing over their heads, and bound for the playoffs for the first time since what, 2002?, and announcing that the rest of the year is just a lame-duck season would just be awful.

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02-24-2010, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aqsw View Post
All I know is, I've already been asked by a large accounting firm here in Winnipeg, If I was interested in season tickets for next year
Any more info?

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02-24-2010, 10:35 PM
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Jeffrey93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aqsw View Post
All I know is, I've already been asked by a large accounting firm here in Winnipeg, If I was interested in season tickets for next year
Unless you are a large business owner that could be either buying a suite or a decent number of season tickets....I can't think of a reason why an accounting firm would be asking an individual if he were interested in buying tickets.
Maybe it's so they can go to where TN is financing a sale/relocation through and say "Hey! This guy says he'd buy season tickets! And he posts on HFBoards!! This thing is for sure a hit!"

If they're asking individuals half the town would know about it and within hours the other half would.
Even if you are a large business Owner....I would only suspect a question similar to a survey...with a lot of "If" and "would you consider" type questions. Even if this were the case.....there would be about 20 other posters on hear yipping about how somebody they knew was contacted about season tix like you claim to have been.

Sorry....I call bullspit.

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02-24-2010, 10:50 PM
  #16
btn
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That article from The Star is from November 2007.

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02-24-2010, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btn View Post
That article from The Star is from November 2007.
Jeffery93, towards the end of the last thread, was questioning how anyone would know Winnipeg was pursuing a team if they weren't going about it the Balsillie way... hence the article being brought up.

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02-24-2010, 11:45 PM
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Talking about Moose season tickets doesn't count...btw

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02-25-2010, 12:05 AM
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Jeffrey93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Jeffery93, towards the end of the last thread, was questioning how anyone would know Winnipeg was pursuing a team if they weren't going about it the Balsillie way... hence the article being brought up.
No I wasn't.

I simply said that making the statement:
- We were told we wouldn't hear about anything, but they said they were trying

Equating to the statement:
- We haven't heard of anything...so we know things are happening

Was a leap of faith, which it is.

I also said several times that Balsillie did not seek out the media, it was the other way around. With the exception of the Coyotes bankruptcy which was common knowledge from the get-go. You didn't see Balsillie calling a press conference to announce that he heard Moyes was going to throw the team into bankruptcy and he was planning to bid on the team, did you? Did you hear a press release from Balsillie after he bid on the team? No.

Balsillie made his attempt as the league requests twice and was screwed by the league. Just look at the Nashville issue.....it was dirty pool being played all around but he followed their rules and the league ended up getting Leipold to sell for much less to a now convicted felon.

Balsillie doesn't seek out media attention....it only happened in Pittsburgh and Nashville at the point that it was inevitable. Phoenix was a unique case where court documents were made public and it was public knowledge immediately.

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02-25-2010, 01:20 AM
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Funny thing is you mention Phoenix and Atlanta but a lot of other teams are in trouble, etc. Why not Tampa Bay or Florida or even the NY Islanders? What about Nashville? Or Colorado?

These teams are in the bottom of the attendance.

Islanders have an old building, an owner that is deficient at best, and they are looking to move.

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02-25-2010, 01:36 AM
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Brodie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
Funny thing is you mention Phoenix and Atlanta but a lot of other teams are in trouble, etc. Why not Tampa Bay or Florida or even the NY Islanders? What about Nashville? Or Colorado?

These teams are in the bottom of the attendance.

Islanders have an old building, an owner that is deficient at best, and they are looking to move.
Because all of those teams have committed ownership. Phoenix is an easy target and Atlanta's ownership issues are pretty heinous... they're obviously going to garner the most speculation.

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02-25-2010, 01:37 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
Funny thing is you mention Phoenix and Atlanta but a lot of other teams are in trouble, etc. Why not Tampa Bay or Florida or even the NY Islanders? What about Nashville? Or Colorado?

These teams are in the bottom of the attendance.

Islanders have an old building, an owner that is deficient at best, and they are looking to move.
Colorado has a billionaire owner and until this year had one of the longest sell out streaks in NHL history. I don't think anyone should be or is concerned about that market.

Nashville and the Islanders take a fair bit of heat in here as well although Nashville has kind of died down. Same with Tampa and Florida. The Islanders have long been rumored to have a chance of going to Kansas City but a lot of people don't really want them to move because of what happened in the 1970s (their dynasty).

He mentions Phoenix for obvious reasons. The market was one of the worst in the NHL before Balsillie came along and managed to make something that was bad into something that was almost unfixable. Atlanta also bears mention because of how many empty seats there are at Thrashers games. You see entire sections empty. Also Atlanta is being talked about because of the recent rumors that there have been relocation talks and of course the widely reported ownership squabbles.

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02-25-2010, 01:46 AM
  #23
Jeffrey93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
Funny thing is you mention Phoenix and Atlanta but a lot of other teams are in trouble, etc. Why not Tampa Bay or Florida or even the NY Islanders? What about Nashville? Or Colorado?

These teams are in the bottom of the attendance.

Islanders have an old building, an owner that is deficient at best, and they are looking to move.
Islanders - Wang is actively pursuing a real estate deal surrounding the Coliseum that would include renovations to the arena to bring it up to snuff. Relocation could be an issue but not this year.
Tampa Bay - Recently sold to a wealthy owner, Jeff Vinik, who as part of the purchase also acquired the company that operates the St. Pete Times Forum and 5.5 acres of "adjacent to the downtown area" land
Florida - Their ownership has been in the news, but their busy arena seems to keep things at a slightly less than panic mode. I wouldn't be surprised if this franchise started surfacing in the relocation talk in the near future, as of right now I think the team Ownership makes enough off the arena to stay put
Nashville - Owner has a tax-lien on his assets....this is definitely worth a closer look. However, the lease does include certain qualifiers that allow the team to escape....those qualifiers seem to be met or be too close to be certain about (it's like 14,000 average a game), the recent arena naming rights issue seems to make me think Nashville is still looking to keep fighting.
Colorado - Shocked you would even mention them. Forbes says they make money. ESPN says their attendance stinks this year...but it's still a market that has averaged over 17,000 fans per per game over their lifetime. In most of those years they have averaged 18,007 which is capacity at the Pepsi Center

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02-25-2010, 10:23 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
The Islanders have long been rumored to have a chance of going to Kansas City but a lot of people don't really want them to move because of what happened in the 1970s (their dynasty).
The Islanders were the Montreal Canadiens? I knew it!

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02-25-2010, 12:44 PM
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Tommy Hawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Because all of those teams have committed ownership. Phoenix is an easy target and Atlanta's ownership issues are pretty heinous... they're obviously going to garner the most speculation.
Just picking yours to quote...

The one thing about the owners that is for certain, is they are greedy and will go wherever the money is and that Bettman will help them do that.

I know Colorado had a long sell out streak but, just going by this years numbers, they stink. I think that unless you have an owner that is committed (stubborn?) to their particular city, anything is possible. Look at the North Stars. They moved. Teams move to make more (lose less) money.

Until we see the books for each team, we do not know which ones are profitable and which ones are not. Also, books can be cooked to reflect whatever the owners want, within reason. For example, if the team's ownership group also owns the arena, they may show the Arena making money and the team losing money in order for them to get revenue sharing, tax breaks, etc. They may have the team not getting any concession money and/or pay a high rent. WHo knows what these guys and their accounts have cooked up. I know what a lot of Fortune 50 companies do and GAAP is somewhat open to interpretation.


So, bottom line so to speak, I think the only teams that you can for sure rule out relocating are Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Boston, NY Rangers, Chicago Blackhawks, San Jose Sharks, Detroit Red Wings, Pittsburgh Penguins, Washington Capitals, NJ Devils, and Philadelphia Flyers.

I think everything else is money talks.

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