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Manitoba Moose / MTS Centre group talking to NHL - Part II

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Old
03-01-2010, 07:12 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Falconer View Post
That's an pure specculation on your part.

The facts show that recent pre-season games in Winnipeg had poor attendance:

2003 10,214
2006 15,015
2007 12,621
2008 13,417
2009 11,644
*announced attendance may include promotional tickets or freebies.

Winnipegs LOVE to cite attendance numbers in sunbelt cities but the harsh truth is that even Winnipegers did not sell out the MTS building for pre-season hockey.

They might turn out in higher numbers for their own team during the regular season...or they might not. Nobody knows for certain. What we do know is they did not sell out the one NHL game they could attend in their home town in recent seasons.

source: http://www.manitobamythbusters.com/p...ge&PAGE_id=206
IMO, the first pre-season game was a sellout because Winnipeggers had a chance to see NHL hockey in their city again, despite what teams were playing. But year after year of seeing the Coyotes and having them shoved down our throats, I would think that Winnipeggers did not want to continue to pay money to support a team that was ripped away from us, and with good reason, attendance began to drop. Then once the Coyotes were taken out of the equation, we decided to attend the games again. We Winnipeggers aren't that stupid and won't financially support the lame duck Coyotes, the team that was stolen from us and dumped in the desert. Why should we?


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03-01-2010, 07:14 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Five bucks says the announcement is the re-naming of the 'Moose' to the 'Jets' and that the pursuit of an NHL franchise has been abandoned.

Any takers?
I'll take the bet against you; I love to prove those who doubt Winnipeg wrong!

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03-01-2010, 07:21 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post

Five bucks says the announcement is the re-naming of the 'Moose' to the 'Jets' and that the pursuit of an NHL franchise has been abandoned.

Any takers?
If there is an announcement in the next week or two, for sure it won't be what you said.

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03-01-2010, 08:57 PM
  #79
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I don't see how you can even a little bit believe that the NHL exhibition attendance has any bearing whatsoever on what attendance would be for a Winnipeg NHL team. We do better than Hamilton does and at higher prices, yet everybody (almost) agrees that Hamilton would easily support an NHL team.
In the previous Winnipeg thread it is an article of faith that the city would sell out a smaller NHL area even if the hockey product wasn't elite. I question that assumption.

If we look at pre-season (admittedly an inferior NHL product) the numbers are not close to a sell out. It is not a perfect test, but it does undercut the assumption that the market will pay to watch anything.

Let the excuse making begin!

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03-01-2010, 09:09 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by The Falconer View Post
In the previous Winnipeg thread it is an article of faith that the city would sell out a smaller NHL area even if the hockey product wasn't elite. I question that assumption.

If we look at pre-season (admittedly an inferior NHL product) the numbers are not close to a sell out. It is not a perfect test, but it does undercut the assumption that the market will pay to watch anything.

Let the excuse making begin!
Excuse #1: I don't want to pay to support other cities NHL teams. Call it stubborn or whatever, but there is something insulting about it. "You're not good enough to have an NHL team, but we'd like to milk you for some good pre-season revenue". That's how I take it and that's why I don't attend. Of course I'm only one person.

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03-01-2010, 09:13 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Falconer View Post
In the previous Winnipeg thread it is an article of faith that the city would sell out a smaller NHL area even if the hockey product wasn't elite. I question that assumption.

If we look at pre-season (admittedly an inferior NHL product) the numbers are not close to a sell out. It is not a perfect test, but it does undercut the assumption that the market will pay to watch anything.

Let the excuse making begin!
You can certainly question that assumption. Neither of us will be able to say for sure until/if Winnipeg gets a second chance.

But looking at NHL preseason exhibition games, I would submit, tells us virtually nothing about what Winnipeg would do if it had its own team again. Why is this standard not applied to Hamilton?

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03-01-2010, 09:48 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Falconer View Post
In the previous Winnipeg thread it is an article of faith that the city would sell out a smaller NHL area even if the hockey product wasn't elite. I question that assumption.

If we look at pre-season (admittedly an inferior NHL product) the numbers are not close to a sell out. It is not a perfect test, but it does undercut the assumption that the market will pay to watch anything.

Let the excuse making begin!
Oh please. And what are the "excuses" for Phoenix, Nashville, Atlanta, Florida, Carolina, etc.?

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03-01-2010, 10:15 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
I've learned over time that saying this word is a big no-no when talking about relocation.

If any of these rumours are true people are going to look pretty bad for so recently denying it...but, like you said sometimes that is necessary.

Five bucks says the announcement is the re-naming of the 'Moose' to the 'Jets' and that the pursuit of an NHL franchise has been abandoned.

Any takers?
Im pretty sure True North does not have the rights to the Winnipeg Jets name anymore. Isn't that still property of the Phoenix Coyotes?

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03-01-2010, 10:20 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Falconer View Post
In the previous Winnipeg thread it is an article of faith that the city would sell out a smaller NHL area even if the hockey product wasn't elite. I question that assumption.

If we look at pre-season (admittedly an inferior NHL product) the numbers are not close to a sell out. It is not a perfect test, but it does undercut the assumption that the market will pay to watch anything.

Let the excuse making begin!
Would you pay $150 for the Carolina Panthers vs New Orleans Saints pre-season game being held in Atlanta. No, because you'd be like WTF, why would I watch that! I'm sure if we could get an all Canadian match-up we would attend, or even an elite matchup, but all we get is crap to watch. How many people attend your pre-season games for YOUR OWN TEAM!!! And what is the average cost of ticket? Most teams don't sell out their pre-season games because it's just that, preseason.

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03-01-2010, 10:28 PM
  #85
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September 21, 2009 - 4126 attendance for Carolina vs Atlanta
September 23, 2009 - 5017 attendance for Nashville vs Atlanta
September 27, 2009 - 7179 attendance for Tampa Bay vs Atlanta

Pre-season means nothing, unless you would like to argue these facts.

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03-01-2010, 10:48 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by scott0606 View Post
Im pretty sure True North does not have the rights to the Winnipeg Jets name anymore. Isn't that still property of the Phoenix Coyotes?
The NHL holds the rights to the Jets name and logo.

Current owner:

National Hockey League
1185 Avenue of the Americas
12th Floor
New York, New York 10036
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/tr...tIndexOnPage=1

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03-01-2010, 10:49 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suitup17 View Post
September 21, 2009 - 4126 attendance for Carolina vs Atlanta
September 23, 2009 - 5017 attendance for Nashville vs Atlanta
September 27, 2009 - 7179 attendance for Tampa Bay vs Atlanta

Pre-season means nothing, unless you would like to argue these facts.
LOL, on Winnipeg's worst day, we would never have attendance that low for an exhibition game involving our team. I remember we got something like 6000 people out to the game against the New Jersey Devils (when they sucked) and the entire city was shut down because of a massive blizzard.

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03-01-2010, 10:55 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by dkehler View Post
I don't see how you can even a little bit believe that the NHL exhibition attendance has any bearing whatsoever on what attendance would be for a Winnipeg NHL team. We do better than Hamilton does and at higher prices, yet everybody (almost) agrees that Hamilton would easily support an NHL team.
Back when they were sold out in 2006, they certainly were touted as evidence of the city supporting an NHL team.

I think I can speak for most of the Winnipeg skeptics when I say that it is the endless hypocrisy and sucking/blowing at the same time by Winnipeg supporters that makes people dismissive.

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03-01-2010, 10:58 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Back when they were sold out in 2006, they certainly were touted as evidence of the city supporting an NHL team.

I think I can speak for most of the Winnipeg skeptics when I say that it is the endless hypocrisy and sucking/blowing at the same time by Winnipeg supporters that makes people dismissive.
I think many people viewed that first exhibition game in the MTS Centre as a "test", so to speak, and Winnipeg passed with flying colours. We see no need to prove ourselves year after year while lining the pockets of teams that are not our own. So no, it's not sucking and blowing at all.

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03-01-2010, 11:54 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Back when they were sold out in 2006, they certainly were touted as evidence of the city supporting an NHL team.

I think I can speak for most of the Winnipeg skeptics when I say that it is the endless hypocrisy and sucking/blowing at the same time by Winnipeg supporters that makes people dismissive.
I don't see it as hypocritical at all... one exhibition game is exciting and reasonable as a test, having them year after year is patronizing.

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03-02-2010, 01:17 AM
  #91
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A Scott Taylor tweet:

Quote:
# Why won't the NHL-to-Winnipeg rumour go away. Heard even more wild stories about MTS Centre today. Crazy. Guess nobody believes the papers. about 8 hours ago via web
Link:

http://twitter.com/rcsportsblog

Scott was the reporter that covered the Jets for the Winnipeg Free Press. More rumours, but little substance so far.

GHOST

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03-02-2010, 03:10 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Falconer View Post
That's an pure specculation on your part.

The facts show that recent pre-season games in Winnipeg had poor attendance:

2003 10,214
2006 15,015
2007 12,621
2008 13,417
2009 11,644
*announced attendance may include promotional tickets or freebies.

Winnipegs LOVE to cite attendance numbers in sunbelt cities but the harsh truth is that even Winnipegers did not sell out the MTS building for pre-season hockey.

They might turn out in higher numbers for their own team during the regular season...or they might not. Nobody knows for certain. What we do know is they did not sell out the one NHL game they could attend in their home town in recent seasons.

source: http://www.manitobamythbusters.com/p...ge&PAGE_id=206
That's ridiculous Falconer.

I'm a big hockey fan and wouldn't attend a pre-season meaningless exhibition game for two out-of-town teams with half AHL rosters for free unless I was bored and had little to do that day. Winnipeg already has 40 odd regular season AHL games per year for a home team where attendance is around 7,500 - 8,000 of actual fans. Winnipeg hockey fans are fairly sophisticated and a lot of them are not interested in attending such so-called NHL games.

On top of that, ticket prices for recent exhibition games in Winnipeg ranged from $139 to $39 if my memory serves correct. Remarkably, some of these exhibition games brought in around a million dollars in revenue. No wonder teams want to play training camp games in Winnipeg!

An exhibition game in a city such as Kansas City, with no pro team and little hockey culture, might make more sense in terms of attendance as a barometer of general interest in the NHL and/or pro hockey in the area.

Here is a picture of an exhibition game this season in Phoenix (September 26, 2009), a current so-called NHL city. Can you say, "No one there!?"



The Thrashers' regular season attendance has been nothing to brag about so far this year either as we have seen from several images of games, some of which have been posted on these boards.

GHOST

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Old
03-02-2010, 08:52 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by scott0606 View Post
Im pretty sure True North does not have the rights to the Winnipeg Jets name anymore. Isn't that still property of the Phoenix Coyotes?
Which explains why Bettman was seen in Winnipeg. It all makes sense now!!

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03-02-2010, 08:59 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Back when they were sold out in 2006, they certainly were touted as evidence of the city supporting an NHL team.

I think I can speak for most of the Winnipeg skeptics when I say that it is the endless hypocrisy and sucking/blowing at the same time by Winnipeg supporters that makes people dismissive.
You can't use pre-season game numbers or AHL numbers really. Pre-season is a better indicator than the AHL but still not 100% indicative of what the potential support would be.
Hamilton, long ago, got tired of the carrot being dangled in front of their face. AHL? It's not the NHL and that is what most people want.
The pre-season games (that we won't see again for a while probably) drew pretty well depending on the teams from what I recall....but some people that bought tickets to them did so somewhat reluctantly. Knowing they shouldn't be supporting this since Hamilton has been screwed for so long....but still didn't want to pass up seeing NHL-calibre (sorta) hockey.

Winnipeg is/was wrong to use NHL pre-season games as evidence to support the market, they are also wrong to use AHL support.

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03-02-2010, 09:07 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Back when they were sold out in 2006, they certainly were touted as evidence of the city supporting an NHL team.

I think I can speak for most of the Winnipeg skeptics when I say that it is the endless hypocrisy and sucking/blowing at the same time by Winnipeg supporters that makes people dismissive.
Thanks for generalizing and lumping all the Winnipeg supporters together. You are dismissive because person A said something in 2006 and person B said another thing in 2010? Makes perfect sense.

Single people out if you want to make such claims. Don't assign a label to an entire city.

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03-02-2010, 09:09 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Knowing they shouldn't be supporting this since Hamilton has been screwed for so long....but still didn't want to pass up seeing NHL-calibre (sorta) hockey...
The "gold mine" of Hamilton couldn't come up with $50 million in the early nineties, but Ottawa did and ended up getting one of the expansion franchises. JB surreptitiously tried to steal a team out of bankruptcy, flaunting not just the rules of the NHL, but the rules of all the major North American sports leagues.

How exactly is that "screwing" Hamilton? Seems you've been let down more by skinflint and seedy suitors than you have by the league.

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03-02-2010, 09:10 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by MJ--A--N View Post
Thanks for generalizing and lumping all the Winnipeg supporters together. You are dismissive because person A said something in 2006 and person B said another thing in 2010? Makes perfect sense.

Single people out if you want to make such claims. Don't assign a label to an entire city.
I'd say the bulk of the Winnipeg supporters were mentioning the NHL pre-season games as "evidence" to support an NHL team in Winnipeg. Of course, not all of them were....but it was a pretty large amount.

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03-02-2010, 09:19 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by King_Stannis View Post
The "gold mine" of Hamilton couldn't come up with $50 million in the early nineties, but Ottawa did and ended up getting one of the expansion franchises. JB surreptitiously tried to steal a team out of bankruptcy, flaunting not just the rules of the NHL, but the rules of all the major North American sports leagues.

How exactly is that "screwing" Hamilton? Seems you've been let down more by skinflint and seedy suitors than you have by the league.
Ottawa borrowed the money for their expansion and didn't have a rink. Hamilton was the only city that met the requirements laid out in the expansion package.
Balsillie's attempt to "steal a team out of bankruptcy, flaunting not just the rules of the NHL, but the rules of all the major North American sports leagues" was only done after offering up piles of money to the league to get any team into Hamilton. Instead of working with him and inviting his money into the league....the league worked against him so the end result was Moyes putting the team into bankruptcy and Balsillie trying to buy it out of there.

Don't make the mistake of thinking Balsillie put an NHL team into bankruptcy.....a franchise owner did....because even he knew it was his best shot at selling to Balsillie and getting the most money from his investment. Leipold was set to sell to Balsillie then suddenly the league showed up with Boots Del Biaggio and Leipold was pushed into selling for less.

Look at NHL expansion....ignore the issue of Toronto/Buffalo as that could be negotiated and dealt with (as was with the Ducks)...and then, can you really tell me Hamilton hasn't been screwed?

Nevermind the fact the City of Hamilton was told by NHL Commissioner John Ziegler that if they build an NHL arena...they WILL get a team. Royal screwing. People talk about the NHL "righting a wrong" with Winnipeg....maybe this wrong should be righted.

But, let's not get sidetracked. Bottom line....AHL, Jr. A and pre-season NHL games aren't very good evidence to show what NHL support would be. They shouldn't be totally ignored...but they shouldn't be given too much weight either.

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03-02-2010, 09:50 AM
  #99
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Ottawa borrowed the money for their expansion and didn't have a rink. Hamilton was the only city that met the requirements laid out in the expansion package.
Amazing what Ottawa was able to do with borrowed money and no rink, eh? As I indicated, all that the "gold mine" of Hamilton had to do was cough up a measly $50 million and the team would have been theirs. After all, they would have made that up many times over because it's the greatest hockey market on the planet, right?

So now you've got the audacity to complain that another team (actually two other teams) were able to come up with the money to play in the big game while you were left in the cold?

You guys had your chance, you blew it, you didn't come up with the money needed. Deal with it. If money is a concern up there then maybe the AHL is a better fit. You guys already have a superlative AHL arena in Copps, so instead of worrying about what you don't have, take stock in what you do.


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03-02-2010, 11:47 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Falconer View Post
In the previous Winnipeg thread it is an article of faith that the city would sell out a smaller NHL area even if the hockey product wasn't elite. I question that assumption.

If we look at pre-season (admittedly an inferior NHL product) the numbers are not close to a sell out. It is not a perfect test, but it does undercut the assumption that the market will pay to watch anything.

Let the excuse making begin!
ok two can play this game. look up the ahl playoff attendance for the moose from last season. how were those numbers?

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