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The future of Russian NT could/should be decided in the next 5 days

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Old
02-25-2010, 07:33 AM
  #51
BringBackStevens
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The problem IMO is a few things.

1) The attitude. You get the impression everyone wants to be the star and score the goals... but no one does the dirty work or the responsible defensive work. Russians were trying to cherry pick, always carrying the puck into the zone and losing it, never dumping and working hard along the boards. Part of that might be the lack of these types of Russian players, but you can't win a hockey game without doing those types of things.

2) Defensive players - Most of the Russian players are not "defensive" guys. In fact many of them are just putrid defensively. I'm not sure if there would have been better players available but you can't load your lineup with guys like that. Are there more Volchenkov/Danny Markov types out there? The only forwards who are really any good defensively are Datsyuk and Federov. Its a serious weakness.

3) The KHLers looked awful. I'm not saying there were or were not better picks out there but these guys mostly looked horrible.

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02-25-2010, 07:33 AM
  #52
hpheikki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
Can't blame this one on Nabby or the coach.

It was this simple: one team came ready to play, the other didn't.

Canada losing to the USA was the best thing that could have happened to them. The extra game against the Germans allowed for a lot of experimenting and chemistry to develop. It got them on a roll.

But let's also be honest, Russia has arguably 4 of the best 5 or 6 individual players in the world, but after that, the depth drops off.
No they dont. They might have few very skilled individuals, but hockey is not only about puckhandling, shooting and skating.

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02-25-2010, 08:02 AM
  #53
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Russia simply did not expect it to be this difficult. I think they really underestimated Canada. They thought Canada was done for. Canada came out like they really wanted this game. I mean they really wanted this game and Russia could not match their intensity. They did not know which way to turn in that first period. It was too late by the second period they had to open up to catch up. If they had another shot at it then it would be a much closer game. But these are elimination games. You have to come ready to play.

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02-25-2010, 03:15 PM
  #54
Rhodes 81
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the problem with russian growing good defensemen is that for the most part, the only d-men that come to the nhl are star offensive d-men, just like most of the forwards that come to the nhl are forwards and not a ton of 2 way 2nd liners and checking line guys that can make more money in europe. because most of their defensive guys are in europe they don't play against the best competition that they do in the olympics. how can their players learn how to cover nhlers when they don't play against them?

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02-25-2010, 04:28 PM
  #55
Vladsky
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Originally Posted by Rhodes 10 View Post
...just like most of the forwards that come to the nhl are forwards and not a ton of 2 way 2nd liners and checking line guys that can make more money in europe.
You just made a very good point.

KHL, as it turns out, is bad for Russian hockey. The league lures workhorse types like Chubarov and Saprykin away from NHL by offering them more money. As a result, the pool of 3rd/4th line players with NHL experience, that could in theory be available to suit up for Russia, erodes away and transforms into a bunch of useless KHLers with deteriorating pressure play skills and inflated egos/expectations.

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02-25-2010, 04:42 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladsky View Post
You just made a very good point.

KHL, as it turns out, is bad for Russian hockey. The league lures workhorse types like Chubarov and Saprykin away from NHL by offering them more money. As a result, the pool of 3rd/4th line players with NHL experience, that could in theory be available to suit up for Russia, erodes away and transforms into a bunch of useless KHLers with deteriorating pressure play skills and inflated egos/expectations.
I don't see how having a stronger (as opposed to the time before the khl) domestic league can be a bad thing?

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02-25-2010, 04:49 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Russia cannot "adjust" it's defense because the current crop of Russian defensemen is not good enough. Russia won two consecutive Gold medals in World Championships in spite of their defense, and in 2009 they were badly outplayed by Canada in the final even though they managed to win that one.

Take a look at the defensemen that Russia produced in the late 1970's and 1980's: Vyacheslav Fetisov, Alexei Kasatonov, Vasili Pervukhin, Zinetula Bilyaletdinov, Sergei Babinov, Igor Stelnov, Sergei Starikov, Alexei Gusarov, Igor Kravchuk, Vladimir Konstantinov, Valeri Shiryayev, Mikhail Tatarinov, Vladimir Malakhov and Sergei Zubov (Tatarinov is included here because he was a really excellent player in his younger days and mental health problems ruined his career). I would also include Sergei Gonchar, Alexei Zhitnik, Boris Mironov and Dimitri Yushkevich as products of Soviet hockey school. All of them are better than any defenseman that Russia produced in the late 1990's or 2000's with an exception of Andrei Markov!

After the USSR disintegrated Russia simply stopped producing any quality defensemen. Age groups 1982 and 1983 produced Fedor Tyutin, Anton Volchenkov, Denis Grebeshkov and Ilya Nikulin. They are OK, but they really pale in comparison to these former greats. After age groups of 1982 and 1983 Russia has produced zero defensemen that are good enough to play regularly in the NHL. Yes, zero. Dimitri Kulikov might change that after this season is over though.



Sochi is too early for Russia to make any serious improvements. Russian team in Sochi will be worse than the Russian team in Vancouver, especially on defense. Markov will be four years older and slower. Gonchar will likely be gone. Nikulin, Tyutin, Grebeshkov and Volchenkov won't develop anymore. Hopefully Dimitri Kulikov can make a serious breakthrough before Sochi to ease the pain, and it would also be good to have another young Russian defenseman (maybe Dimitri Orlov?) to develop into a similar player as Kulikov.

Kovalchuk, Malkin, Ovechkin and Semin will still be on top of their careers in 2014. Datsyuk will probably have declined by some. Morozov will be gone (he was a non factor in Vancouver anyway). So will Kovalev. Frolov will still be around and hopefully he will be selected (he should have been selected to this team ahead of a non-factor Zaripov).

Russia looks thin on center with no great center waiting on the wings. Artem Anisimov has a change to develop into a solid 2nd or 3rd center for Russia, but in order to keep competitive Russia needs another Zhamnov- or Yashin -type centerman emerging from age groups of 1990-1993 to be a good side-kick for Malkin in 2014,


For a longer term Russia needs to develop its hockey program from root level. It has to get more kids to play hockey. Canada and the US both have 10 times more kids playing hockey than Russia. Russia also needs more rinks being built around the country to spread the game further than just a few cities like Togliatti, Yaroslavl, Magnitogorsk and Moscow. These are big challenges, but then again, if Russian clubs have millions of dollars to spend on foreign players they must also have money to invest more on junior hockey!

Best analysis i've read on this issue so far!

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02-25-2010, 04:49 PM
  #58
SilverSeven
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Russia just isnt a team. They havent been for a long long time. The USSR didnt win on skill. They were an incredible team. They played as an incredible team. They had the skill to make them champions, but if they played the disjointed style the current teams do, they would have been destroyed in any meeting with NHL Team Canada.

Too many individuals.

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Old
02-25-2010, 04:53 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladsky View Post
When you don't have depth, you simply choose different tactics, which is the lesson taught by today's Swiss performance against the US. Just insert 2-3 Russian top 6 forwards in the Swiss lineup, and they send Team US home.
I always love the ifs and buts approach. Sports is about results, and this Russian team failed to deliver the goods when it counted. No game plan, no heart, and no adaptability.

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02-25-2010, 04:58 PM
  #60
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Any truth to story that a third of the Russian team was out until 6am the night before the game?

http://www.soonet.ca/showthread.php?...c-Medals/page4

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02-25-2010, 04:58 PM
  #61
fly4apuckguy
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy


But let's also be honest, Russia has arguably 4 of the best 5 or 6 individual players in the world, but after that, the depth drops off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpheikki View Post
No they dont. They might have few very skilled individuals, but hockey is not only about puckhandling, shooting and skating.
You basically re-stated my point. Individually skilled superstars. As a team...meh. Kovalchuk on a sheet of ice by himself with a pail of pucks would be amazing to watch. He can score highlight reel goals. But in a pressure situation where he has to battle through adversity...nothing. He's not the only one, just an example.

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02-25-2010, 05:00 PM
  #62
fly4apuckguy
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Originally Posted by Koss View Post
Any truth to story that a third of the Russian team was out until 6am the night before the game?

http://www.soonet.ca/showthread.php?...c-Medals/page4
I would highly doubt this. There would be photos and videos on Youtube by now. Those guys are pretty closely watched, I would think.

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Old
02-25-2010, 05:06 PM
  #63
beowulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTHEMan71 View Post
The very first thing they need to address is defence. It looked shaky all tournament and finally when it was put up against Canada it unravelled.

They literally did nothing. The just watched the Canadians skate into the zone and skate along the boards. They would skate right beside them and not do a thing.

Going into Sochi, Russia has 4 years to develop a tougher Russian game. They need to make better selections on defence by throwing in some shut down guys. Problem is Russia doesn't have too many options in that category.

Either way this this was a huge embarrassment from Russia. So much promise going into the Games. I hope our Russians will change drastically for Sochi.
Talking about shutdown guys, what about Emelin? I know as a Hab fan we have been hearing about him for a while and hoping he will come over but how has he been developing?

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02-25-2010, 05:06 PM
  #64
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When Dmitri Kalinin is one of the top 10 defensive talents to have popped out of a Russian woman in the last 30 years there is not much to work with.

Team Russia should have and could have incorporated a system in which the defensive were more passive in the offensive zone and let the forwards do most of the work in that regard. It doesn't make much sense anymore to have a team that has weak defensive defensemen play into the run and gun style anymore. Russia should have based their game plan in a North American sanctioned tournament around what works best in the NHL right now.

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02-25-2010, 05:08 PM
  #65
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Um gee, let me see what they need to fix, could it be that they put career KHLer's on the team instead of NHLers.

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02-25-2010, 05:10 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladsky View Post
You just made a very good point.

KHL, as it turns out, is bad for Russian hockey. The league lures workhorse types like Chubarov and Saprykin away from NHL by offering them more money. As a result, the pool of 3rd/4th line players with NHL experience, that could in theory be available to suit up for Russia, erodes away and transforms into a bunch of useless KHLers with deteriorating pressure play skills and inflated egos/expectations.
Dude, that is retarded. I may have missed something but did we win the Olympics in 2006? How about 2002? 1998? Not only that but during that stretch we couldn't even win the WC for 15 years, medalled only three times and we had like 60 players in the NHL at some points.

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02-25-2010, 05:15 PM
  #67
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Don't blame Nabokov. He's only at fault for, at most, the Morrow goal.

The Russian defence let them down. Did nobody else notice how all the Canadian goals, aside from the Morrow goal, were scored on the rush? The defence was too soft on the attacking Canadians, and the forwards did not give them much help - I didn't see much backchecking effort at all from the elite Russian forwards.

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02-25-2010, 05:15 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Dude, that is retarded. I may have missed something but did we win the Olympics in 2006? How about 2002? 1998? Not only that but during that stretch we couldn't even win the WC for 15 years, medalled only three times.
Nail on the head.

+ Lets not forget olympics are usually played on International Ice. Which suits our KHL'ers as proven in 2006 Olympics. I wouldn't panic now but it would be good if we developed some good D and the KHL managed to bring in some of the other big clubs in Europe. There are a few from czech, sweden, finland who have wanted to join. If they join it will only bring positives. Probably do more good for hockey worldwide.
Bring in the Swiss,Czechs,Slovaks,Swedes,Fins etc etc hopefully it does become the Continental league. If you look at the Austrian league they have a Croatian club who sells out there 7,000 arena every game. I'm sure if the big European clubs joined it would do a heck of good too.

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02-25-2010, 05:17 PM
  #69
knivez
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Dude, that is retarded. I may have missed something but did we win the Olympics in 2006? How about 2002? 1998? Not only that but during that stretch we couldn't even win the WC for 15 years, medalled only three times and we had like 60 players in the NHL at some points.
I agree. I thought the KHL players were far from the problem. In fact, they probably played with more effort than a lot of the elite NHL stars.

All game, all we heard was how Canada was focussed on shutting down Ovechkin, which they did. Well, Russia is far from a one-man team. Where was Kovalchuk? Where was Malkin? Where was Datsyuk?

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Old
02-25-2010, 05:18 PM
  #70
Vladsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Dude, that is retarded. I may have missed something but did we win the Olympics in 2006? How about 2002? 1998? Not only that but during that stretch we couldn't even win the WC for 15 years, medalled only three times.
1998 was the product of the Soviet system - a Soviet-bred roster managed by a Soviet coach. After that it was all downhill.

KHL will not bring back the Red Machine. Lesson learned: in best-on-best tourneys, as long as you play against top NHL talent, you should use players with recent NHL experience.

UPD: Olympic size ice would not save Russia from blowout yesterday.

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Old
02-25-2010, 05:19 PM
  #71
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I think a change needs to be made at the junior level to get the defensemen to think more defense minded. You're not gonna get 20-35 year old men to change their game much. But if you breed kids with the idea that being good on defense makes you a better player it will make a difference for the future.

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Old
02-25-2010, 05:19 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by knivez View Post
Don't blame Nabokov. He's only at fault for, at most, the Morrow goal.

The Russian defence let them down. Did nobody else notice how all the Canadian goals, aside from the Morrow goal, were scored on the rush? The defence was too soft on the attacking Canadians, and the forwards did not give them much help - I didn't see much backchecking effort at all from the elite Russian forwards.
Doesn't really matter, Bryzgalov is still the 3rd best goalie in the tourney and should have started.

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02-25-2010, 05:22 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by GeeoffBrown View Post
I think a change needs to be made at the junior level to get the defensemen to think more defense minded. You're not gonna get 20-35 year old men to change their game much. But if you breed kids with the idea that being good on defense makes you a better player it will make a difference for the future.
Russia has basically 2 types of D-men, offensive minded types, and the physical bodychecking types, aren't the physical types considered "defensive".

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02-25-2010, 05:34 PM
  #74
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Even the forwards showed very little push back...clearly Canada wanted it more and the depth from the Canadians never gave an easy route for the russians.....Russia also scored two goals on a screened goalie.....they just didnt seem prepared to pay the price in the dirty areas.

Dont forget that the russians lost to Slovakia and struggled against the Czechs...till the big hit.

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Old
02-25-2010, 07:18 PM
  #75
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I don't think the situation is as dire as people make it out to be.

Russia does have some talented young forward with 2-way ability (Kulemin, Anisimov, Grachev, Loktionov, Tikhonov, etc).

There are also some talented young Russian defensemen with 2-way ability (Kulikov, Goncharov, Voynov, Alexandrov, Orlov, Anikienko, etc.)

Hopefully these players develop well and give us a strong team in the future, both offensively and defensively.

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