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Old
02-25-2010, 12:20 PM
  #26
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I dare say that he has the potential of probably realizing what might be possibly significant trade value, if the cards fall right and the stars are right and that there are teams in playoff contention that have assets they are willing to gamble for potential gain and they think that Halak may be able to extend his level of performance into the playoffs and into further years. Also I would assume it would help if they can afford him...if they like his personality...the car he drives, the food he eats, the friends he keeps and all the other "ifs" that go into a decision about whether or not someone wants to acquire another player. I hope this doesn't sound too "iffy" but I am not a GM.

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Old
02-25-2010, 12:21 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
Let's put it bluntly :

Would you rather depend on Halak or Lehtonen?


One was being shopped because he wasn't needed too, BTW. His GM went public in saying he'd trade him for any good offer he got.



You mean...Lehtonen for Vishnevskiy and a 4th? And that's for a guy that hadn't played all year, was shopped and has an injury history?
No... more like

Biron for a 2nd
Huet for a 2nd
Bryzgalov on waivers

GMs aren't high on goalies because any single team has at least a decent #1 goalie... or at least, almost any...

There's no way the Habs will get much more than a potential top-6 forward or a project + a draft pick (similar to what the Thrashers got for Lehtonen) for Halak...

As for Lehtonen, come on. Before his injuries, the guy was considered a rising star in the NHL, like Carey Price...

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Old
02-25-2010, 12:22 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
Let's put it bluntly :

Would you rather depend on Halak or Lehtonen?


One was being shopped because he wasn't needed too, BTW. His GM went public in saying he'd trade him for any good offer he got.
Its still an opinion/speculation which you stated like a fact. Which is the exact criticism you put on the other guy.

I'd rather have Halak on my team, but a GM could possibly like Lehtonen's potential over Halak's given his size, athleticism, draft pedigree etc. Goalies don't always blossom at a young age anyways. (This is an opinion btw).

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Old
02-25-2010, 12:22 PM
  #29
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Nice to see the weekly "Value of Halak thread" is up and running.

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Old
02-25-2010, 12:24 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
A 1st and a prospect? Not a chance.

Goalies aren't worth that much... You don't need to be a GM or a league executive to know that... just take a look at the trades over the last few years...
I am not disagreeing completely, but you got to realize that Halak is not a 30 year old backup or 30 something "starter" either, he is a "24" year old nhl #1 goalie, a teams Future Goaltender. His season so far has shown he is a number one goalie. not to mention the olympics, which is making his value is sky high right now, this isn't a huet or a biron.

24 years old

17 - 10 - 1 record

923 save %

3 shutouts.

Helped Slovakia take down the Russians, Who do not have that much of a stacked team like Canada.

Helped last night eliminate the Swede's out of medal contention, who won the gold at the last olympics. Now Slovakia is in medal contention.

If anything this guy is worth every penny. Is indeed entitled to a huge raise, and is a proven #1 he has shown in the NHL and Olympics.

People have to give the guy some credit, like the another poster said his value is way more higher than Lethonen, At this point I believe he could get a top 6 foward and possibly a pick in a package deal, to a team looking for a goalie or a goalie to lead a team out of the hole like, the oilers, islanders, lightning. Philly has got along with semi-good goaltending he could possibly fill their need, if Emery is not resigned.

Not overrating Halak, He is just that good and worth it.


Last edited by BigHabs: 02-25-2010 at 12:29 PM.
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Old
02-25-2010, 12:24 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
I was pointing out value out of 2 players that play the same position, not what I thought his actual value was.

It's a simple process really :

Since it's fairly likely X has better value than Y, and Y got package Z in a trade, could X fetch Z+ in a trade?
I agree that Halak could fetch more in value than Lehtonen. I look at that trade from Nieuwendyk’s point-of-view. If he thought that Vishnevski was a can’t-miss blue-chipper, he wouldn’t have traded him. On the other hand, I don’t trust Waddell’s ability to fleece someone.

I asked rhetorically in another Halak thread if folks thought that St. Louis was a good trading partner. I think they need to stop going with stop-gap goaltending if they seriously want to contend for a playoff spot in the West, and they have a wealth of young talent for trading chips which is going to be enhanced with another high pick in this year’s draft. The Habs could land a relatively cheap contract to get them thru Hamrlik’s contract expiration.

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Old
02-25-2010, 12:28 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by gamblor506 View Post
I am not disagreeing completely, but you got to realize that Halak is not a 30 year old backup or 30 something "starter" either, he is a "24" year old nhl #1 goalie. His season so far has shown he is a number one goalie. not to mention the olympics, which is making his value is sky high right now, this isn't a huet or a biron.

24 years old

17 - 10 - 1 record

923 save %

3 shutouts.

Helped Slovakia take down the Russians, Who do not have that much of a stacked team like Canada.

Helped last night eliminate the Swede's out of medal contention, who won the gold at the last olympics.

If anything this guy is worth every penny. Is indeed entitled to a huge raise, and is a proven #1 he has shown in the NHL and Olympics.

People have to give the guy some credit, like the other guy said his value is way more higher than Lethonen, At this point I believe he could get a top 6 foward and possibly a pick in a package deal, to a team looking for a goalie or a goalie to lead a team out of the hole like, the oilers, islanders, lightning. Philly has got along with semi-good goaltending he could possibly fill their need, if Emery is not resigned.

Not overrating Halak, He is just that good and worth it.
Bryzgalov, one of the current leaders for the Vezina trophy, was put on waivers 2 years ago about month for month...

Halak hasn't proven his value in the playoffs so far, and while he's having an impressive season, you don't give a 1st and a prospect for a guy who hasn't proven that much so far.

Anyway, about everybody on this forum knows my position: I would deal Price well before Halak... Not because I don't trust the kid's talent, because he would fetch much more than Halak because of his pedigree and the hype surrounding him, and IMHO, he doesn't have that higher of an upside than Halak.

Better technique? Yes.
Better raw-skills? Probably. IMHO, yes.

But some players have fight in them, and some others have not. Halak has it. Price just doesn't. And this is a HUGE part of the equation.

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Old
02-25-2010, 12:41 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
No... more like

Biron for a 2nd
Huet for a 2nd
Bryzgalov on waivers

GMs aren't high on goalies because any single team has at least a decent #1 goalie... or at least, almost any...

There's no way the Habs will get much more than a potential top-6 forward or a project + a draft pick (similar to what the Thrashers got for Lehtonen) for Halak...

As for Lehtonen, come on. Before his injuries, the guy was considered a rising star in the NHL, like Carey Price...
Biron and Huet had expiring contracts, going to UFA. Can't compare, since you still get at least (I think) 3 more years of Halak. They also were in their prime at that point, while Halak still has room to grow.

Bryzgalov was put on waivers because Burke promised he'd let him go if he wasn't starting (which wasn't happening since Giggy signed a multi-year extension that summer). He also had less career starts at 27 than Halak has at the moment (at 24). His S% was lower than .910 in his career.

Before his injuries? You mean, before he was an NHL regular? I agree. His injury problems and conditionning issues came to the forefront in his rookie season though (at 21). I guess he's still fairly well rated since he was supposed to be the next big thing in nets (back in 02 at least), but his potential is still potential at this point and he's not a fresh youngster right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure View Post
Its still an opinion/speculation which you stated like a fact. Which is the exact criticism you put on the other guy.

I'd rather have Halak on my team, but a GM could possibly like Lehtonen's potential over Halak's given his size, athleticism, draft pedigree etc. Goalies don't always blossom at a young age anyways. (This is an opinion btw).
Obviously I was a bit less compromising in my statement than somebody would be about an opinion, but there's a major difference between evaluating out of thin air and comparing 2 very comparable variables.

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Old
02-25-2010, 12:58 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
Biron and Huet had expiring contracts, going to UFA. Can't compare, since you still get at least (I think) 3 more years of Halak. They also were in their prime at that point, while Halak still has room to grow.

Bryzgalov was put on waivers because Burke promised he'd let him go if he wasn't starting (which wasn't happening since Giggy signed a multi-year extension that summer). He also had less career starts at 27 than Halak has at the moment (at 24). His S% was lower than .910 in his career.

Before his injuries? You mean, before he was an NHL regular? I agree. His injury problems and conditionning issues came to the forefront in his rookie season though (at 21). I guess he's still fairly well rated since he was supposed to be the next big thing in nets (back in 02 at least), but his potential is still potential at this point and he's not a fresh youngster right now.



Obviously I was a bit less compromising in my statement than somebody would be about an opinion, but there's a major difference between evaluating out of thin air and comparing 2 very comparable variables.
Say what you want, but who would need Halak right now to the point they would give up a 1st rounder and a prospect?

Let's check this out:

Boston - No. Rask is there and Thomas is still a decent goaltender.
Buffalo - No.
Ottawa - Elliot is having a breakout year and LeClaire still is decent.
Toronto - Giguere and Gustavsson are a quality duo.

Philly - Maybe. Once again, they don't even have a 1st in the next year or two. This, and there's no way they give us JVR or Giroux for Halak.Pittsburgh - No
NYI - They MIGHT be interested, but they're not giving a 1st rounder where they are right now.
NYR - No
NJ - Hell no

Atlanta - I would say no... Pavelec is their guy
TB - Smith and Nittymaki (spell?) are an ok tandem
Florida - They're rumoured to be acquiring Huet sooner than later, or else, they still have Vokoun
Carolina - No
Washington - Probably not. Varlamov is their guy heading to the future.

Detroit - Howard is having a breakout season for them
Chicago - They have some good assets in front of the net and some quality goalie prospects... this, and Huet is doing a decent enough job to keep them in a top-3 spot in the West.
Jackets - No
St. Louis - Maybe...
Nashville - Rinne just signed with them for 2 years

Calgary - No
Colorado - No
Vancouver - No
Edmonton - They might be interested, but no way they would give their 1st and one of their prospects
Minnesota - They're looking to unload Harding, they don't need any depth at this position.

SJ - I don't think so...
Phoenix - No
LA - I don't think they gave up on Quick just yet, but maybe...
Dallas - No, they just got Lehtonen
Anaheim - No

Of every team bolded in this list, I couldn't see how any one would give a 1st and a prospect for Halak.

The most likely trading partner might be the Oilers, but once again, I don't think they would give prospects and 1st rounders where they are right now... they're a re-building team, litterally.

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Old
02-25-2010, 01:03 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by projexns View Post
I agree that Halak could fetch more in value than Lehtonen. I look at that trade from Nieuwendyk’s point-of-view. If he thought that Vishnevski was a can’t-miss blue-chipper, he wouldn’t have traded him. On the other hand, I don’t trust Waddell’s ability to fleece someone.

I asked rhetorically in another Halak thread if folks thought that St. Louis was a good trading partner. I think they need to stop going with stop-gap goaltending if they seriously want to contend for a playoff spot in the West, and they have a wealth of young talent for trading chips which is going to be enhanced with another high pick in this year’s draft. The Habs could land a relatively cheap contract to get them thru Hamrlik’s contract expiration.
I think the Blues and the Habs would make good partners for a trade. What are the Habs looking for?

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02-25-2010, 01:04 PM
  #36
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If another team had Price, would Price for Halak be a fair trade? I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I'm wondering just what Montreal needs. Do we want to bank on Price or win more often now? And my thought is, basically, that we ought to keep both, because either one has great value in the future.

In sum, I think most people are predicting the futures of these two kids so they can say, "I told you x was going to be the better one."

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Old
02-25-2010, 01:13 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
Bryzgalov, one of the current leaders for the Vezina trophy, was put on waivers 2 years ago about month for month...

Halak hasn't proven his value in the playoffs so far, and while he's having an impressive season, you don't give a 1st and a prospect for a guy who hasn't proven that much so far.

Anyway, about everybody on this forum knows my position: I would deal Price well before Halak... Not because I don't trust the kid's talent, because he would fetch much more than Halak because of his pedigree and the hype surrounding him, and IMHO, he doesn't have that higher of an upside than Halak.

Better technique? Yes.
Better raw-skills? Probably. IMHO, yes.

But some players have fight in them, and some others have not. Halak has it. Price just doesn't. And this is a HUGE part of the equation.
Context is important. And Bryzgalov wasn't a Vezina runner up when he was put on waiver. I don't think that example is relevant. Neither are the two other you gave. Contract status are important too.

If a team trades for Halak, it's because he's a long term solution for them. More than one team are looking for a long term solution in goals, hence why a question mark like Lehtonen could bring up that kind of return despite being shelved for almost a year. If the habs want to trade Halak, they're in a very good position right now. In fact they're in a good position to deal either of their goaltender, whether it's now or around the draft.

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Old
02-25-2010, 01:49 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Pure View Post
Edmonton's 2nd (31st overall) + a prospect like Peckham for Halak seems fair to me.
This would be a great trade. This year's draft is pretty deep and Peckham is NHL ready and a big physical Dman.

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Old
02-25-2010, 01:51 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
I think the Blues and the Habs would make good partners for a trade. What are the Habs looking for?
Assuming that the Blues are not contemplating a Mason/Conklin tandem again for next year, and that talks with the Habs would be initiated because they have not found another solution for their goaltending, one of Backes, Boyes, Berglund, Oshie, Perron, 2010 1st-rounder would have to be on the table.

For the right Price, either Montreal goaltender is available.

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02-25-2010, 02:03 PM
  #40
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This would be a great trade. This year's draft is pretty deep and Peckham is NHL ready and a big physical Dman.

Markov
Hamerlik
Spacek
Gorges
O'byrne
Weber
Subban



Where would Peckham play???

Personally I would rather The Habs try to get a big center incase Pleks doesnt resign.

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02-25-2010, 02:12 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Nice to see the weekly "Value of Halak thread" is up and running.
Yup and judging by what most people think he's worth the Habs are better off keeping him since he is worth way more to the Habs than anything he will return in a trade...

I only want Gauthier to trade either Price or Halak if he receives an offer he just can't refuse which means an overpayment from the other team...The goalie situation is something the Habs need to handle very very carefully...

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Old
02-25-2010, 02:26 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
Markov
Hamerlik
Spacek
Gorges
O'byrne
Weber
Subban



Where would Peckham play???

Personally I would rather The Habs try to get a big center incase Pleks doesnt resign.
Yup, I would too like the Habs to get Getzlaf, but that's not going to happen.

Stop expecting to get something huge for Halak, it won't happen... If Gauthier wants something big, he'll have to give one of Markov, Subban or Price.

When Halak gets traded for what he's actually worth on the market, you'll all be back in force to scream "OMGZZZZ GAUTHIER GOT ROBBED!!! FIRE THIS IDIOT!!!!1!!one!".

I wish this fanbase could somehow stay realistic. Halak still is an unproven #1 goalie with no playoffs experience and no concrete winning pedigree (besides this year's olympics if he medals)... we're not going to get anything special for him.

If we're trading Halak, it's not a matter of getting what we need, it's a matter of getting what we can, because the goalies' value on the market is crap.

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02-25-2010, 02:41 PM
  #43
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Value of Halak...

- a good third liner
or
- a decent prospect
or
- a late first or good 2nd pick

Maybe a little bit more but for goalies:

Value <<<<<<<<<<< Talent

Its the reality...

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02-25-2010, 02:52 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccgg View Post
Value of Halak...

- a good third liner
or
- a decent prospect
or
- a late first or good 2nd pick

Maybe a little bit more but for goalies:

Value <<<<<<<<<<< Talent

Its the reality...
Maybe a little more but I agree with you. People have been overrating Halak for the last 15 or so games. Lol before that(September-December) Halak had something like .905 S% and 2.80 Gaa. Now he's on fire for 15 games and people think he will get some crazy players.

He is what he is and that's a small goalie,who's athletic and hasn't really done much in his career (NHL,etc)

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02-25-2010, 02:56 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccgg View Post
Value of Halak...

- a good third liner
or
- a decent prospect
or
- a late first or good 2nd pick

Maybe a little bit more but for goalies:

Value <<<<<<<<<<< Talent

Its the reality...
And since

Value of Halak To Habs >> Value of Halak to other Teams Per List Above

It has basically become pointless to consider Halak's value in the context of this forum. Habs can't/shouldn't (hopefully won't) contemplate moving him. Fin.

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02-25-2010, 02:57 PM
  #46
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Yup, I would too like the Habs to get Getzlaf, but that's not going to happen.
Stop expecting to get something huge for Halak, it won't happen... If Gauthier wants something big, he'll have to give one of Markov, Subban or Price.

When Halak gets traded for what he's actually worth on the market, you'll all be back in force to scream "OMGZZZZ GAUTHIER GOT ROBBED!!! FIRE THIS IDIOT!!!!1!!one!".

I wish this fanbase could somehow stay realistic. Halak still is an unproven #1 goalie with no playoffs experience and no concrete winning pedigree (besides this year's olympics if he medals)... we're not going to get anything special for him.

If we're trading Halak, it's not a matter of getting what we need, it's a matter of getting what we can, because the goalies' value on the market is crap.


I meant a big body center not a big name. And read back in this thread. you are agreeing with me. a Top 6 forward is all the habs will get. at best

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02-25-2010, 02:57 PM
  #47
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All of you guys who think edmonton has anything more than a passing interest is really out to lunch. Why would they get another big name goalie so they can have khabibulin sitting on the bench for 4 mil a year?

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02-25-2010, 04:06 PM
  #48
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Halak is a RFA, why trade him when we can just wait for another team to offer him 2-3mil and guarantee that we have a 1st round draft pick coming back? If another team offers anything below 2mil, the habs will easily be able to match it...

And for those who are unaware of the rules to signing an RFA

these numbers are approximations:

OFFER Compensation

$660,000 or below None

Over $660,000 to $1 million Third round pick

Over $1.0 million to $2.0 million Second round pick

Over $2.0 million to $3.0 million 1st and 3rd round pick

Over $3.0 million to $4.0 million 1st, 2nd and 3rd

Over $4.0 million to $5.0 million (2)1st, 2nd, and 3rd

Over $5 million (4)1st round picks

On another note, if Slovakia somehow manages to win Gold Halak's value will skyrocket into oblivion and teams will have to offer a **** load for this goaltender.

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02-25-2010, 04:11 PM
  #49
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Here's my list, revised from Cam A Larry's edition.


Boston - Little if any interest.
Buffalo - Nope, Miller is elite.
Ottawa - Little if any interest.
Toronto - Giguere and Gustavsson are a quality duo. Define quality.

Philly - Lots of interest.
Pittsburgh - Nope, Fleury is good.
NYI - Depends on DiPietro, but I doubt it.
NYR - Nope, Lungfish is good.
NJ - Lots of interest, Brodeur is on his last legs.

Atlanta - Lots of interest, Halak can steal games, Atlanta needs games stolen.
TB - Crappy goalies right now, if they want to make the POs they need quality. Lots of interest.
Florida - Vokoun is alright but I doubt they want Halak right now.
Carolina - Nope, Ward is good enough.
Washington - Moderate interest. Varmalov hasn't proven much and has been riding a very very hot team. We'll see in the off-season (if Halak isn't traded by then).

Detroit - Howard is having a breakout season for them, but isn't as proven as Halak. Little to moderate interest.
Chicago - Moderate interest, would have to dump Huet and Niemi and promise Halak a starting spot though.
Jackets - Halak is better than what they have. Steve Mason is unproven.
St. Louis - Absolutely, they need to get over the hump, Halak can be a key. Chris Mason is 33, for the record.
Nashville - Nope, they just kept Rinne.

Calgary - Yes, Kipper is floundering and his heart is in question more and more every season. Moderate to high interest.
Colorado - Probably not, but they like getting goalies from the habs...
Vancouver - Nope, Louuuuuuuu is good.
Edmonton - Very interested but don't have many assets.
Minnesota - Backstrom is 32, they must be moderately interest in Halak.

SJ - Nabokov is old and a huge choker, if they mess up in the POs once again, SJ will be at the top of the list for his services.
Phoenix - Moderate interest.
LA - Absolutely, if Dean Lombardi thinks this year is their year.
Dallas - Lehtonen sucks and is a band-aid. They'll make a run for Halak in the off-season for sure.
Anaheim - Nope, Hiller is good enough.

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Old
02-25-2010, 04:30 PM
  #50
Halifaxhab*
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
Markov
Hamerlik
Spacek
Gorges
O'byrne
Weber
Subban



Where would Peckham play???

Personally I would rather The Habs try to get a big center incase Pleks doesnt resign.
I didn't say he'd be in our lineup, just that he is NHL ready. He can make a really solid call up. Besides, he can offer the same style that Mara does. I personally don't see Weber craking the lineup next year either. And, as much as it pains me to say it, I feel Hamrlik will be traded by the draft just due to the need to free up cap space.

I know that getting a big bodied Centre (established player or prospect) would be nice, but realistically getting a high 2nd rd pick and a mid tier prospect would be a good return on a goalie this year.

Some folks may think that just allowing a team to make an offer sheet around 3M will net us a 1st. It's a 2nd at 3M or less this year. So we would be better served to take a solid d prospect and a high 2nd.

So our D lineup as I see it would look like this IF this trade were to happen

Markov-O'Byrne
Gorges-Subban
Gill/Peckham-Spacek
Gill/Peckham

Callup - Weber

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