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Old
03-02-2010, 06:51 PM
  #301
captainpaxil
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Yes, because it's not to be used interchangeably because they don't mean the same thing. It's only like the 12th time I said it in the thread.

If I hand you and orange and you tell me it tastes like an apple, that doesn't mean I gave you an apple.
either your trying to win the cup or your not. i dont see that there can be all that much grey area. if your icing a team your fully aware has no shot to win your tanking whatever codeword you want to call it. the kings have tanked the last few years. did they intentionally try to lose games no but you dont have to try to lose at this level. those trying to compete want to beat you.

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03-02-2010, 06:53 PM
  #302
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True, but as much as some people might not agree, it's always been the Flyers mentality to make the playoffs. Playoffs aren't about the best team necessarily, it's about the hottest team when the playoffs come around (see Edmonton and Carolina in 2006). As long as the Flyers make the playoffs, they have a chance, and that's all we can really ask for.
True, but you're banking on the team is red-hot. Not out of the question, but that's a year-to-year thing. I do say "let's just be one of the 8 teams in and see what happens" but you can't roll on that every year (especially with how much roster turnover we go through year-to-year)

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03-02-2010, 06:56 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
True, but you're banking on the team is red-hot. Not out of the question, but that's a year-to-year thing. I do say "let's just be one of the 8 teams in and see what happens" but you can't roll on that every year (especially with how much roster turnover we go through year-to-year)
Which is true. Look at Carolina and Edmonton now. Depends on what your goal is. Considering the Flyers haven't won a Cup in 35 years, I'll take what I can get at this point, even if it's just one Cup.

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03-02-2010, 07:03 PM
  #304
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either your trying to win the cup or your not. i dont see that there can be all that much grey area. if your icing a team your fully aware has no shot to win your tanking whatever codeword you want to call it. the kings have tanked the last few years. did they intentionally try to lose games no but you dont have to try to lose at this level. those trying to compete want to beat you.
It's not a codeword, you just don't know what re-building is. I follow the league as a whole. 80-90% of the hockey world will tell you the same thing. You can try to win the Cup, with sustained long-term success. Some teams don't want to win 1 Cup, they want to win more than 1. They don't want to be the Hurricanes - a team who wings it every year between contending and not contending with no sort of direction whatsoever (I've been critical of greatly of Jim Rutherford, not many GMs keep their jobs when they make the playoffs 5 years out of 16). They're having a season like we had in 06-07 - it was identified early that they sucked. Only they didn't trade for Mike York and Alexei Zhitnik and pretend they could turn it around. They've made it known they want to gut their roster. They're probably going to have a top 5 pick in the draft. They're not a big budget team, they're not going to be after Kovalchuk, or Nabokov, and Jokinen -- it does not mean they're tanking.

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Which is true. Look at Carolina and Edmonton now. Depends on what your goal is. Considering the Flyers haven't won a Cup in 35 years, I'll take what I can get at this point, even if it's just one Cup.
In Edmonton's defense, they've tried. For whatever reason no one wants to play there. 1 Cup would be nice, but even the Flyers maintain the goal is to not only win 1, but then push for 2, 3 and 4. It's hard to do that when you're 6th in the conference every year. Regular season means nothing that playoff season, but it means a little more when you're 6th every year - you're not sustaining yourself as a contender year in and year out.

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03-02-2010, 07:38 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
True, but as much as some people might not agree, it's always been the Flyers mentality to make the playoffs. Playoffs aren't about the best team necessarily, it's about the hottest team when the playoffs come around (see Edmonton and Carolina in 2006). As long as the Flyers make the playoffs, they have a chance, and that's all we can really ask for.
Carolina was a 112 point team which was good for 4th in the league the year they won. They were legitimately good team.

If you look at the actual Cup winners they are the top seeded teams.

08-09: Pittsburgh: 99 points, 4th in conference, 8th in league
07-08: Detroit: 115 points, 1st in conference, 1st in league
06-07: Anaheim: 110 points, 2nd in conference, 4th in league
05-06: Carolina: 112 points, 2nd in conference, 4th in league
03-04: Tampa Bay: 106 points, 1st in conference, 2nd in league
02-03: New Jersey: 108 points, 2nd in conference, 4th in league
01-02: Detroit: 116 points, 1st in conference, 1st in league
00-01: Colorado: 118 poinbts, 1st in conference, 1st in league
99-00: New Jersey: 103 points, 4th in conference, 4th in league
98-99: Dallas: 114 points, 1st in conference, 1st in league

Also if you look at the actual Cup winners just about all of them were bottom feeders and had at least one high pick on their team. Even NJ and Detroit were bottom feeders before they rose to prominence and then sustained their excellence by continuing to draft well and make shrewd moves.

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03-02-2010, 10:11 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It's not a codeword, you just don't know what re-building is. I follow the league as a whole. 80-90% of the hockey world will tell you the same thing. You can try to win the Cup, with sustained long-term success. Some teams don't want to win 1 Cup, they want to win more than 1. They don't want to be the Hurricanes - a team who wings it every year between contending and not contending with no sort of direction whatsoever (I've been critical of greatly of Jim Rutherford, not many GMs keep their jobs when they make the playoffs 5 years out of 16). They're having a season like we had in 06-07 - it was identified early that they sucked. Only they didn't trade for Mike York and Alexei Zhitnik and pretend they could turn it around. They've made it known they want to gut their roster. They're probably going to have a top 5 pick in the draft. They're not a big budget team, they're not going to be after Kovalchuk, or Nabokov, and Jokinen -- it does not mean they're tanking.
.
it is a codeword you just dont undertsand what competing means.

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03-02-2010, 10:13 PM
  #307
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NJD and Detroit havent been bottom feeders for like 20 years

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03-02-2010, 10:37 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
it is a codeword you just dont undertsand what competing means.
Um ok, that just...lacks cognitive thought. If I were to guess, you don't pay much attention to the league outside the Flyers. I bet you think the Coyotes tank every year too.

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NJD and Detroit havent been bottom feeders for like 20 years
Not every single team does have to do it the same, they still managed to build the team and keep that way during sustained excellence. Detroit also had Scotty Bowman who could turn water into wine, then Ken Holland took over and didn't really miss much of the beat.

The Devils and Red Wings have one thing, among others, that we don't have -- world class management. Rocky Wirtz hired Scotty Bowman and John McDonough -- it's no mistake how fast the Blackhawks went from being outdrawn by an AHL team to not being able to find a ticket. They're airtight against the cap, but they're also not completely screwed making trades either.


St. Louis made the playoffs 30 years in a row. 30! Never won the Cup.

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03-02-2010, 10:41 PM
  #309
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NJD and Detroit havent been bottom feeders for like 20 years
What was Detroit before that though? The point isn't Cup-or-bust or tank, it's that other organizations throughout the entire league have shown having a plan and sticking to it pays off. If you want to play Russian roulette to see if you can win, fine. Just realize the Flyers always end up shooting their foot, and it's been that way for a long time.

So what, LA sucked hard for a few years? They were committed to a rebuild. And it's working now. I swear, we're getting to be as bad as the Russians as far as chest pounding goes. We're always saying how competitive we've been over the history of the franchise, how we don't back down, how we do it our way, how "Flyers Hockey" is the way hockey should be played. Who gives a ****? No one else, because it's worked twice in 40+ years, and zero times over the lifespan of the large majority of the people posting on this board.

Flyers hockey doesn't work. The Flyers mentality isn't worth it. If the heads of the organization wanted success, they'd have the balls to stop insisting that "this" is the year, or at least back it up by making all the moves that make sense. Every time we shake up personnel there's still something else missing. And it's that way with this team again this year. And it'll probably stay that way for a long time, and the year we do finally win the Cup, it probably will be by and large due to finally getting the barrel on the revolver to stop where there isn't a bullet. That's not how to run any damn business, but at that point my tired, old, wrinkled ass won't give a ****, and everyone insisting it was worth the wait just to do it "the Flyers way" can pat themselves on the back.

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03-02-2010, 11:32 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Um ok, that just...lacks cognitive thought. If I were to guess, you don't pay much attention to the league outside the Flyers. I bet you think the Coyotes tank every year too.
.
yes i do as a matter of fact. if you arent financially viable your arent a competitive team. i think teams like the yotes and pittsburgh drain both valuable cash and talent from teams trying to do things the right way. for every team that is "rebuilding" is a team that cant garner national attention on a game of the week or expand the audience of the product the league is trying to promote. so while they arent contrubuting to growing the game theyre also being rewarded for thier failure with picks. i dont posess the kind of intellectual gymnastic ability to say that slacking off is competing. i follow alot of other teams but i cant say that im a fan of how the league operates.

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03-03-2010, 12:11 AM
  #311
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yes i do as a matter of fact. if you arent financially viable your arent a competitive team. i think teams like the yotes and pittsburgh drain both valuable cash and talent from teams trying to do things the right way. for every team that is "rebuilding" is a team that cant garner national attention on a game of the week or expand the audience of the product the league is trying to promote. so while they arent contrubuting to growing the game theyre also being rewarded for thier failure with picks. i dont posess the kind of intellectual gymnastic ability to say that slacking off is competing. i follow alot of other teams but i cant say that im a fan of how the league operates.
What failure? That's the nature of the game. This isn't a FHL or EHM league. Someone's gotta have the 1st pick in the draft, and some teams don't have the means to dig their way out of 1 bad year by spending to the cap the very next season.

The new NHL wasn't designed to operate the way the Flyers operate in it. Fix problems by giving everyone draft picks. Now we're out of draft picks, have very few prospects of any substance, and lost our starting goaltender for the season, leaving ourselves very little recourse to fix the problem. Oh ****, what do we do now? We need a goalie and have nothing to trade. It would sure be nice to have some draft picks to trade to fix a REAL problem like your STARTING GOALTENDER. We're supposed to win a Stanley Cup with 2 freaken AHL goalies.

Pittsburgh was still getting nationally televised games even though they were terrible. You're not a fan of the way the league operates, it's the way they have to operate to keep as many viable teams as possible. The new NHL's economic system wasn't designed for gunslinging teams like the Flyers with the Cup-or-die attitude. And now they're up against it. Their starting goaltender is out for the season, there is almost nothing they can do about it. As I said before, in 2007 the Flyers landed 2 NBC games because NBC knows the Flyers bring the ratings with them. They could be bad for another 5 years, they'll still get their 2 NBC games against the Penguins and Rangers, and their 6 or 7 games on VS.

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03-03-2010, 10:19 AM
  #312
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How ******** ******** was it to announce this a day before the deadline?

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03-03-2010, 10:21 AM
  #313
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How ******** ******** was it to announce this a day before the deadline?
It's only ******** if we're trying to get a starting goalie. My hunch is that we're not (which, I suppose, is ******** in its own right).

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03-03-2010, 11:00 AM
  #314
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It's only ******** if we're trying to get a starting goalie. My hunch is that we're not (which, I suppose, is ******** in its own right).
Or it also screams "We need a goalie!" to 29 GM's, increasing the chance of more trade offers.

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03-03-2010, 11:28 AM
  #315
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Or it also screams "We need a goalie!" to 29 GM's, increasing the chance of more trade offers.
All of which will rip us off.

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03-03-2010, 02:41 PM
  #316
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What failure? That's the nature of the game. This isn't a FHL or EHM league. Someone's gotta have the 1st pick in the draft, and some teams don't have the means to dig their way out of 1 bad year by spending to the cap the very next season.

The new NHL wasn't designed to operate the way the Flyers operate in it. Fix problems by giving everyone draft picks. Now we're out of draft picks, have very few prospects of any substance, and lost our starting goaltender for the season, leaving ourselves very little recourse to fix the problem. Oh ****, what do we do now? We need a goalie and have nothing to trade. It would sure be nice to have some draft picks to trade to fix a REAL problem like your STARTING GOALTENDER. We're supposed to win a Stanley Cup with 2 freaken AHL goalies.

Pittsburgh was still getting nationally televised games even though they were terrible. You're not a fan of the way the league operates, it's the way they have to operate to keep as many viable teams as possible. The new NHL's economic system wasn't designed for gunslinging teams like the Flyers with the Cup-or-die attitude. And now they're up against it. Their starting goaltender is out for the season, there is almost nothing they can do about it. As I said before, in 2007 the Flyers landed 2 NBC games because NBC knows the Flyers bring the ratings with them. They could be bad for another 5 years, they'll still get their 2 NBC games against the Penguins and Rangers, and their 6 or 7 games on VS.
or maybe theyve overexpanded and its shifting the overall quality of the league. if they would have folded these bankrupt franchises then you would have less ahl players in the league. diluting the talent pool and then trying to ice an inferior product.your saying teams dont have the means to spend to the cap and then saying the league is maintaining viable franchises which is it?

either your trying to win or your not. i dont think its that complicated. the rest is excuses. i understand if your management is just inept and they just make poor decisions but i expect you to at least try. if a coach cant find a way to win you fire him if a gm cant you fire him and if an entire franchise perpetually sucks you fold it. its competition and that means somebody has to lose. quitters first.

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03-03-2010, 02:45 PM
  #317
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or maybe theyve overexpanded and its shifting the overall quality of the league. if they would have folded these bankrupt franchises then you would have less ahl players in the league. diluting the talent pool and then trying to ice an inferior product.your saying teams dont have the means to spend to the cap and then saying the league is maintaining viable franchises which is it?
Doesn't matter. There's 30 teams in the league. They're never going to contract either. That's the world we live in today.

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either your trying to win or your not. i dont think its that complicated. the rest is excuses. i understand if your management is just inept and they just make poor decisions but i expect you to at least try. if a coach cant find a way to win you fire him if a gm cant you fire him and if an entire franchise perpetually sucks you fold it. its competition and that means somebody has to lose. quitters first.
Some people try by building up through the draft and not spending money when they don't feel they have a chance to win. This is not tanking.

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03-03-2010, 02:47 PM
  #318
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How ******** ******** was it to announce this a day before the deadline?
Not at all. We had him on LTIR for cap reasons anyway so people knew he was out long term (LTIR= Long term injured reserve btw)

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03-03-2010, 04:22 PM
  #319
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Not at all. We had him on LTIR for cap reasons anyway so people knew he was out long term (LTIR= Long term injured reserve btw)
Thankyou, i know i'm British but i do know that LTIR means buddy

You only need to be out for 24 days to go on it though, so therefore it doesn't automatically mean he was out for the year. Admitting that we're facing the play-offs with a waiver-wire goalie just about confirmed the fact that we'd never get a replacement in. All opposition GM's just saw dollar signs in their eyes.


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03-03-2010, 04:26 PM
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people in the UK say mate? I thought that was just a Australian thing

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03-03-2010, 06:31 PM
  #321
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Emery's career as a hockey player might be over.

Best of luck to you Ray.

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03-03-2010, 07:28 PM
  #322
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If his career is over, how much you guys wanna bet he ends up staying with Philly as a scout or broadcaster or something?

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03-03-2010, 07:38 PM
  #323
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If his career is over, how much you guys wanna bet he ends up staying with Philly as a scout or broadcaster or something?
No, he's going to move to LA or something so he can party

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03-03-2010, 08:16 PM
  #324
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Great move Homer.

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03-03-2010, 08:37 PM
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Irony, we pass up on a new goalie with faith in Leighton and this happens. We should of seen this coming...

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