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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Updated Cumulative Best on Best Score: Canada 6 - Rest of the World 4

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Old
03-02-2010, 12:24 AM
  #126
robdicks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2189 View Post
There's nothing wrong with any of that, but the poster I quoted said "prepare your team for 2014 and make us shut up." How the hell can any of us prepare the US team for 2014? We're just fans.
well yeah i guess ur just responding to that specific post and im more responding to americans that keep calling us classless for taking jabs and stuff.. its all good natured imo

but yeah ur right.. i think its dumb to say prepare ur team for 2014

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03-02-2010, 12:30 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
This is what I hate the most. Canada fans have the egos running out of control because they beat the USA in a single game. Well, team USA beat Canada 5 - 3 before that. Who cares? Basically, Canada fans are gloating that they went 1 - 1 with the USA and won by one goal on a given night during the Olympics. It doesn't make them a better team. It means they won on that night. This is why the Olympics and most international tournaments are based on a lot of luck. One game elimination doesn't mean much. If Canada faced Russia another 10 times do you think you would get the same result game in and game out? Probably not, in fact I'd be willing to bet Russia would win a handful of them. Sure, I'll give Canada their props for winning one heck of an EPIC hockey game. They deserve the credit. But that is all they deserve. They were not good enough to be gloating like this.

I can play a stats game too... Team USA outscored Canada 7 - 6 in the two games they faced one another? Does that make the USA a better team? No, it just means they scored more goals in two games than them.

Dude. If CANADA was to play the U.S in a 7 game series, I bet CANADA would win in 6 games.

Same thing against the Russians.

What you take from these types of tournaments is what team can put it together when it matters most.

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Old
03-02-2010, 12:36 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
I guess it is a best on best tournament if only Canada has all of its best...
Well yes, that would be the definition of best on best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
Not only the USSR, but Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Finland...
Yes, because players like Tretiak were amateurs. Come on, you really want to argue that? Also Sweden had boycotted the Olympics before as a direct response to the Soviets using professionals, so not sure why you would bring them up unless you wanted to further our point.

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Old
03-02-2010, 12:38 AM
  #129
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Any true hockey historian knows that the 1991 Canada Cup was not a best-on-best tournament.

The Soviets sent their B team, and even that was in disorganized shambles, sent at the very last minute, due to the political turmoil in their homeland. Many of the top players refused to represent the country either out of fear at the backlash of defecting, or from pure spite.

Therefore, right off the bat I see your score should read 6-4, which is still mighty impressive.

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Old
03-02-2010, 12:42 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
I'm not arguing that Canada is currently the dominant team in men's hockey (and I'm Canadian), because we're not, and our success in the last decade or two proves that out - I'm arguing the fact that before 1998, Canada (and every other country for that matter) was limited to amateur players, while Russia was permitted to bring their top professionals. So, of course they won more often than not - the Miracle on Ice was indeed a miracle. Us Canadians do not consider pre-1998 Olympics to be "best-on-best" competitions (as we were limited to amateurs), nor do we consider World Championships to be "best-on-best" because all rosters are constrained by the NHL playoffs. So what we're left with, pre-1998, are Canada Cups and the odd Rendez-Vous or Summit Series, at which we have a very decent record.
Not to nitpick, but your post ought to read "pre 1996", as opposed to "pre 1998", as the 96-97 World Cup was definitely a best on best tournament. Unlike the 91 Canada Cup (see my last post).

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Old
03-02-2010, 09:23 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoldenJet View Post
Any true hockey historian knows that the 1991 Canada Cup was not a best-on-best tournament.

The Soviets sent their B team, and even that was in disorganized shambles, sent at the very last minute, due to the political turmoil in their homeland. Many of the top players refused to represent the country either out of fear at the backlash of defecting, or from pure spite.

Therefore, right off the bat I see your score should read 6-4, which is still mighty impressive.
You're right about this. Actually, both the Soviet and Czechoslovakian teams were weaker as a result of the collapse of the Iron Curtain. 6-4 it is...


Last edited by Magick93: 03-02-2010 at 10:43 AM.
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Old
03-02-2010, 09:48 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Yeah, you're right.

Let's not count those, because Canada didn't win.
We didn't play in many of them. Pretty tough to win when you're not even there. Bottom line, if Canada was allowed to use it's very best like all the communist countries were, we would have won more than half of those golds. That's not speculation, it's fact. Canada has dominated best on best tournaments more than any other country.
BTW, no country in the world has more Olympic golds than Canada.

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Old
03-02-2010, 09:57 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Sergei Makarov View Post
The Canada Cup was only a friendly tournament. It doesn't have any value.

BTW, to be a best on best tournament, the Canada Cup should have had the best referees and not those chauvinist cheaters.
It did have the best refs. Russians only say that it didn't because they lost and because there's proof of the blatant cheating and overt harassing of our players during the Summit Series ranging from threats of imprisoning a member of our management and one of our fans; phoning our players rooms late at night; pulling fire alarms in the middle of the night; and bugging rooms. They even had their officials travel, live and dine with their players. Their refs were part of the team

When it comes to cheating, no one did it more than the USSR.

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Old
03-02-2010, 10:00 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post




The national team did not play year round...
Many of the team NHL players were teammates or even linemates, and practice was said to be not an issue before the series.
I exaggerated slightly but 14 players on the Soviet National Team were teammates from the Red Army team.

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03-02-2010, 10:03 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by McGuillicuddy View Post
When you lose, say little. When you win, say less.
Damn, thats a cool saying, I like it.

And it applies to here.

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Old
03-02-2010, 10:03 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Reel off as many consecutive Golds as the Russians and then I'm down with you guys.
^Well there's someone who knows absolutely nothing about the history of the sport. But I see it hasn't stopped you from commenting about it.

BTW: if you could take the current USA Olympic team composed of it's very best professionals vs the 1980 team, who do think would've have won a seven game series and how many games would it have taken to determine a winner? C'mon, I know you can grasp this concept.


Last edited by Eukaryote: 03-02-2010 at 10:10 AM.
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Old
03-02-2010, 10:54 AM
  #137
Magick93
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Originally Posted by Kamzik View Post
Cool. Before I read your post I never realized Peter Stastny, Marian Stastny, Vladimir Dzurilla, and Jan Starsi were Czech. For a second there, I thought they might have been Slovak. Someone better tell them, may they no longer live in ignorance.

Good point. I've changed it on the first page.

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Old
03-02-2010, 11:27 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Well, I never said HISTORICALLY (even though this is what the thread is based on). I was referring to THIS YEAR in my post. And this year, personally, I think USA had a better tournament. Canada beat them when the game had a title. USA beat them when the game didn't have a title. Doesn't mean Canada is better.

Just like in the WJC. Canada beat USA in a game without significance. USA beat them for the WJC when it was a "gold" medal game. Doesn't mean USA was better, just meant they won a single game.
No, the context of the game definately matters. Ottawa beat Pittsburgh last year in the regular season. Doesnt mean we are the best team. Great teams win when it matters. When it doesnt matter, it dosnt matter.

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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
I know, it is not like the USA has ever gloated for decades about a single victory at the Olympics?


Any USA fan whining TWO DAYS after we won needs to remember this.

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Old
03-02-2010, 11:31 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Eukaryote View Post
We didn't play in many of them. Pretty tough to win when you're not even there. Bottom line, if Canada was allowed to use it's very best like all the communist countries were, we would have won more than half of those golds. That's not speculation, it's fact. Canada has dominated best on best tournaments more than any other country.
BTW, no country in the world has more Olympic golds than Canada.
Wow, making an assumption and then calling your speculation a 'fact' seems quite far fetched to say the least. And if you count the results of the Unified Team, the Soviet Union also has 8 Olympic Golds (in 10 Olympic Games, 15 if counting the Russian results).

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Old
03-02-2010, 12:28 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Magick93 View Post
There have been 10 best on best hockey tournaments, starting with the inaugural Canada Cup in 1976, and culminating to date with the 2010 Olympics.

Thus far, Canada has won 6 times, while the entire rest of the world combined has won only 4 times.

Here are the details:

Year Tournament - Winner / Runner-up

1976 Canada Cup - Canada / Czechoslovakia

1981 Canada Cup - USSR / Canada

1984 Canada Cup - Canada / Sweden

1987 Canada Cup - Canada / USSR

1991 Canada Cup - Canada / USA (I'm not counting in the total though this in the total since the USSR and Czech teams were weakened due to the fall of the Iron Curtain. They didn't send their "best".)

1996 World Cup - USA / Canada

1998 Olympics - Czech Republic / Russia

2002 Olympics - Canada / USA

2004 World Cup - Canada / Finland

2006 Olympics - Sweden / Finland

2010 Olympics - Canada / USA

Totals:

Canada 6 wins / 2 runners-up
USA 1 win / 2 runners-up
Russia/USSR 1 win / 2 runners-up
Sweden 1 win / 1 runner-up
Czech Republic 1 win
Finland 0 wins / 2 runners-up
Czechoslovakia 0 wins / 1 runner-up

Canada Rules!!!!
And almost every one of those wins came on your own soil or just a 1.5 hour flight from most of western Canada

If Canada doesnt win in Sochi, it just proves that they are incapable of winning a best-on-best tournament when forced to play abroad.

Conversely, other countries have proven that they can go into Canada's back yard and come out the best in the world.

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03-02-2010, 12:33 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
No, the context of the game definately matters. Ottawa beat Pittsburgh last year in the regular season. Doesnt mean we are the best team. Great teams win when it matters. When it doesnt matter, it dosnt matter.





Any USA fan whining TWO DAYS after we won needs to remember this.


When a Canadian team bereft of NHL experience and is collectively under the age of 22 beats an international powerhouse of Hall of Famers that dominated NHL teams before the tournament, be my guest and gloat all you want.


No Canadian hockey team I can think of ever accomplished the impossible like the 1980 US Olympic team.


David vs Goliath isnt the same as Goliath vs Goliath. What part of that dont you understand?

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Old
03-02-2010, 12:55 PM
  #142
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Using some of those early tournies smells a bit of hollow victory. After all, the game in the 70ies hadn't really evolved into sufficiently high level in Sweden and Finland, maybe even the USA. For Finland the same applies at least for early 80ies, maybe not so much for Sweden and USA as they were already pretty good at that time.

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Old
03-02-2010, 01:01 PM
  #143
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I can't believe how much people take to heart over a few words. Canadians should be proud of a gold medal win, just as Americans should be proud of all of their gold medal wins. Everyone needs to back off and think of what they are saying before they hit submit because there is some ridiculous crap being spewed from everywhere.

Also stop bringing up history, because it is totally irrelevant, 90% of the people on these boards probably don't remember Olympics before NHL'ers so talking of "Canada has two gold medals in 50 years" or "Only the Soviets had professionals" is ridiculous because hardly anyone involved in this argument personally watched the Olympics live before the 90's. And any argument either side brings up is immediately being discredited by someone from the other side of the argument.

So Canadians quit being so pompous and gloating and saying "we are so dominant", and Americans quit trying to ruin the fun of a gold medal game. Can't everyone just enjoy the fact that there was an amazing game between two great teams and the sport is most likely better for it?

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03-02-2010, 01:36 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Jari Kurri, Esa Tikhanen, Boje Salming, Peter Stansny, Paul Stansny all played in the NHL and the Fins, Swedes, and Czecks were all worse because of it. There were others as well...look up the history books.

Only the Russians had ALL their players because of communism. Players were not allowed to leave the country.

Are you too young to remember? That's ok but please don't start spreading misinformation.
I am not the one spreading misinformation here... You know like saying that only the Soviets used professionals while the rest used amateurs...
Missing one or two players because of the NHL or defections is not an excuse to call the teams amateur.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Given that Copps Coliseum was constructed less than five years earlier and was considered extremely modern and is still a well-maintained facility a quarter of a century later while most Soviet facilities were already aging as the state economy teetered on the precipice of total collapse, yes. And let's institute a new role on HFBoards: you heretofore concede the merits of any discussion by using that stupid face palm emoticon.
Well you saying something real silly deserved it.
And I am sure you are an expert on Soviet and North American facilities...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paper View Post
Well yes, that would be the definition of best on best.
So it is all about Canada and whether others have their best does not matter?


Quote:
Yes, because players like Tretiak were amateurs. Come on, you really want to argue that? Also Sweden had boycotted the Olympics before as a direct response to the Soviets using professionals, so not sure why you would bring them up unless you wanted to further our point.
Sweden boycotted with Canada only in 1976. I guess because they could not use their NHLers (the 2-3 they had at the time) and since its players wanted to go to the NHL in the future (but did not want to lose their right to play in the Olympics).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eukaryote View Post
It did have the best refs. Russians only say that it didn't because they lost and because there's proof of the blatant cheating and overt harassing of our players during the Summit Series ranging from threats of imprisoning a member of our management and one of our fans; phoning our players rooms late at night; pulling fire alarms in the middle of the night; and bugging rooms. They even had their officials travel, live and dine with their players. Their refs were part of the team

When it comes to cheating, no one did it more than the USSR.
This is just a lot of popular claims by you. Learn some history...
If you are talking about cheating and biased officiating just look at the 87 Canada Cup, where every team other than Canada was at a disadvantage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jawno View Post
I exaggerated slightly but 14 players on the Soviet National Team were teammates from the Red Army team.
No you are still exaggerating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eukaryote View Post
We didn't play in many of them. Pretty tough to win when you're not even there. Bottom line, if Canada was allowed to use it's very best like all the communist countries were, we would have won more than half of those golds. That's not speculation, it's fact. Canada has dominated best on best tournaments more than any other country.
BTW, no country in the world has more Olympic golds than Canada.
And again how much medals in the modern era, when other countries actually played hockey?
Canada was allowed to send all the NHL players it wanted since 77 in the WCs, but the results did not change.
Dominating a home tournament is not exactly proof of dominance.
Now Canada is just more consistent than others, which is much easier now since the USSR and CSSR are no more.


Last edited by YMB29: 03-02-2010 at 01:44 PM.
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Old
03-02-2010, 02:18 PM
  #145
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And this is why I wanted Canada to lose the gold... their hockey ego is just too big for their own good. Do we really need this thread?

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03-02-2010, 02:23 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
This is what I hate the most. Canada fans have the egos running out of control because they beat the USA in a single game. Well, team USA beat Canada 5 - 3 before that. Who cares? Basically, Canada fans are gloating that they went 1 - 1 with the USA and won by one goal on a given night during the Olympics. It doesn't make them a better team. It means they won on that night. This is why the Olympics and most international tournaments are based on a lot of luck. One game elimination doesn't mean much. If Canada faced Russia another 10 times do you think you would get the same result game in and game out? Probably not, in fact I'd be willing to bet Russia would win a handful of them. Sure, I'll give Canada their props for winning one heck of an EPIC hockey game. They deserve the credit. But that is all they deserve. They were not good enough to be gloating like this.

I can play a stats game too... Team USA outscored Canada 7 - 6 in the two games they faced one another? Does that make the USA a better team? No, it just means they scored more goals in two games than them.
Difference is USA won the game with little meaning, Canada won the game that matters. Canada wouldn't have lost that first game if it was the gold medal game, fact.

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03-02-2010, 05:53 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by JesusBouillon View Post
Difference is USA won the game with little meaning, Canada won the game that matters. Canada wouldn't have lost that first game if it was the gold medal game, fact.
I get what people are saying. I know it is important to win the "Gold" game, obviously. That is what every team goes to the Olympics for. I just don't think a single game is vindictive of a team being better than another. If that was the case, why do we have best-of-seven game series in the NHL? We can always change it to a single game formula and if the BEST team ALWAYS WINS the game when IT MATTERS than we would have a 100% accurate representation of what team deserved the Stanley Cup? I don't think that would be the case and I doubt few of you would too.

Every game in the SCF last year mattered. Detroit won the first game and if it was based on one game elimination Detroit would have won. Based on one game Detroit was better? No.

And I agree, Canada probably would win a series against USA in 6 or 7 games. I think it would be closer than some would indicate but I don't think the best teams ALWAYS win the game when it matters. Otherwise an UPSET wouldn't exist. The game was a 3 - 2 victory for Canada in OT. That hardly represents that Canada would have won 10 times out of 10 because it was the Gold Medal Game and it "mattered." If USA got a lucky bounce and won the game 3 - 2 it doesn't mean they would have won it 10 times out of 10 when it mattered. I don't see it so cut and dry.

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03-02-2010, 06:06 PM
  #148
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Why do you care so much? Sure are defensive of American hockey in here.

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03-02-2010, 06:59 PM
  #149
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Don't forget the women. You can't be a hockey power without the women nowadays.


But on that note, Canadian girls are just better when it comes to hockey be it playing or supporting. If they weren't then how would both of us be able to watch the hockey game at the same time?

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03-02-2010, 07:17 PM
  #150
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Keep it civil guys.

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