HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

USA at the 2010 World Championship

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-12-2010, 04:12 PM
  #476
TheHMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,426
vCash: 500
I haven't been able to watch many US games, though from what I've seen, I can totally understand that guys like Oshie and Okposo who were supposed to be carrying the load offensively, just can't get it done.

How has Foligno looked overall in this tournament though? I haven't been able to see too many games.

TheHMan is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 04:18 PM
  #477
Makkeli
Registered User
 
Makkeli's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 407
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHMan View Post
I haven't been able to watch many US games, though from what I've seen, I can totally understand that guys like Oshie and Okposo who were supposed to be carrying the load offensively, just can't get it done.

How has Foligno looked overall in this tournament though? I haven't been able to see too many games.
From my opinion Foligno was one of the best US players in first two games, and tonight solid game too.

Makkeli is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 04:42 PM
  #478
Tony Piscotta
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hamilton Square
Country: United States
Posts: 762
vCash: 500
Rob Scuderi

Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post

It's hard to say on Scuderi or Greene with the Olympic ice.
Realize this is a bit late but was wondering about this and never posted it before. Was Scuderi ever considered for this tournament? Thought his not being selected was the biggest ommision of the Vancouver team and then to not see him at least invited to Germany, unless there were injury issues boggles the mind.

It's almost like that Dustin Pedroia commercial for the video game where he talks about polishing his MVP trophy. Scuderi was certainly a big part of the Penguins' Stanley Cup victory a year ago.

Tony Piscotta is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 04:47 PM
  #479
Ilyeu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 804
vCash: 500
Well think of it this way. Germany, Norway and Finland are good hockey nations and have some good to great players on their team. U.S.A's good talent, got out played by equally good talent. In the past the Americans have had even worse than this quality, but this team managed to keep it close each game by nations that have closed the gaps on countries "B" teams. Nothing to feel bad about, just win relegation and no worries. Lose relegation, you can call these players bums, because TEAM USA doesn't deserve relegation fate.

Good effort USA at least by the play call to at least give a game.

Too add more, I don't think you can say this team was poorly constructed or blame Burke. They worked with what they had. TSN, both commentators called this team a good team or a good potential young team. So your point is moot if you think this team has bad players. And for the record, I called this team composed of mostly average players, not bad players, just so none of you get any ideas.


Last edited by Ilyeu: 05-12-2010 at 05:05 PM.
Ilyeu is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 04:59 PM
  #480
New Sabres Captain
ForFriendshipDikembe
 
New Sabres Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 38,017
vCash: 500
Let's assume (hope) the US pulls their act together and places 1st in the relegation group and finishes in 13th place.

We entered the tournament ranked #3. By my calculations:

Canada and Russia will stay ahead of us. Finland will also pass us regardless where they finish.

Sweden will pass us if they finish 10th or higher (this almost certainly will happen)

Czech Republic will pass us if they make the semifinals (less likely, but still definitely possible)

Slovakia will pass us if they make the finals (less likely still, but you never know)

Switzerland will pass us if they win the tournament (highly unlikely)

So this tournament will likely knock the Americans down to 5th/6th in the world. Best case scenario would be #4 (requiring a great choke job by the Swedes and a lot of other things to go right), and worst case scenario puts us at #8.

New Sabres Captain is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 05:07 PM
  #481
Ilyeu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 804
vCash: 500
Rankings don't really mean anything, championships do. No one rubs world rankings in hockey. Look at the Russians, they're rubbing in their victories at this tournament after going so long for never winning a title in the Mens Senior tournaments.

Ilyeu is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 05:12 PM
  #482
New Sabres Captain
ForFriendshipDikembe
 
New Sabres Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 38,017
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
Well think of it this way. Germany, Norway and Finland are good hockey nations and have some good to great players on their team. U.S.A's good talent, got out played by equally good talent. In the past the Americans have had even worse than this quality, but this team managed to keep it close each game by nations that have closed the gaps on countries "B" teams. Nothing to feel bad about, just win relegation and no worries. Lose relegation, you can call these players bums, because TEAM USA doesn't deserve relegation fate.

Good effort USA at least by the play call to at least give a game.

Too add more, I don't think you can say this team was poorly constructed or blame Burke. They worked with what they had. TSN, both commentators called this team a good team or a good potential young team. So your point is moot if you think this team has bad players.
I still think Burke/Poile gets some blame for this. There was next to no veteran leadership on this team, which I think hurt. Nobody aside from Clemmensen over 28. I think a guy like Modano, Cole, Rolston, etc. could have really helped in the locker room, although perhaps not as much on the scoreboard. Maybe be a calming factor for the young kids. Past teams have included vets like Jeff Halpern. There was next to no experience on the international level, and it showed.

And then they just didn't take enough offensive talent. Lots of young, hard working guys, but he needed some guys who could find the back of the net. Stafford and Stempniak are two guys who became available who could have helped in that area. And given the US still has available roster spots...not addressing either issue still falls on their shoulder.

Those were two very big weaknesses on the team, and while I appreciate the constraints Burke/Poile had to work with given the Olympics, players declining, and the fact that several good American players were still in the playoffs (not including Olympians--JVR, Gionta, Gomez, Leopold, Wheeler, Howard, Byfuglien, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some), the fact remains that the team still had glaring weaknesses.

New Sabres Captain is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 05:24 PM
  #483
Ilyeu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 804
vCash: 500
I have to agree with you that this tournament needs leadership. This tournament as for as long as I've been watching it has always been about veteran leadership and success. Just look at Jagr this year. You got of give Burke slack though for the Olympic year, he's not the only one who had a very short list to call from.

Ilyeu is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 05:42 PM
  #484
New Sabres Captain
ForFriendshipDikembe
 
New Sabres Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 38,017
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
Rankings don't really mean anything, championships do. No one rubs world rankings in hockey. Look at the Russians, they're rubbing in their victories at this tournament after going so long for never winning a title in the Mens Senior tournaments.
You're right the ranking don't really mean much (except when it comes time to decide the automatic qualifiers to the Olympics), and hopefully since there are no Olympics next year the US can put together a solid team next year and they won't slide further where that becomes an issue, but I thought it would be interesting to bring up.

New Sabres Captain is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 06:13 PM
  #485
usahockey22flyers
Classic Coburn...
 
usahockey22flyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,324
vCash: 500
I dont see how everyone is critizing burke when the ultimate truth is ... NO ONE WANTED TO PLAY!! Everyone had "injuries" or are free agents... this is the team america was stuck with.. and i thought they had potental... forwards couldnt produce any O.

usahockey22flyers is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 09:02 PM
  #486
William H Bonney
Registered User
 
William H Bonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sierra Nevada
Country: United States
Posts: 19,446
vCash: 500
Embarrassing tournament. They better suck it up and finish off it off "strong." I wasn't able to catch the final two periods today but the stats don't seem to back up an even remotely strong offensive performance again either.

I don't get the slagging on Burke and co. Assuming all these players were purposely not invited so they could take fringe players instead is really grasping at straws. In reality, in a tournament that's never held much esteem with American hockey players, they had a hard time convincing more players than normal to come that would have guaranteed a better result. It still doesn't matter though. It's on the players/coaches that were there to produce and they didn't. This team, no matter if it's our D team or whatever, shouldn't be losing three straight games to Germany/Denmark/Finland, none of which were at their best either. If anything, this tournament showed our depth isn't where it needs to be yet.

I was extremely disappointed in Okposo, Oshie and Dubinsky. If they really want to ever make the "big" team, they need to have a hell of a lot more impressive showings when representing USA Hockey going forward. Yandle should be the only "new" guy coming out of this in the good graces of USA Hockey brass. Hopefully the rest of the American players will be embarrassed enough by this tournament to more heavily consider accepting their invites in the future to help prevent this ever happening again but I won't count on it.

A sad ending to an amazing year for USA Hockey.

__________________
"I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough." - Mark Twain.
William H Bonney is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 09:39 PM
  #487
Finnish your Czech
Jermain Defriend
 
Finnish your Czech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Finland
Posts: 43,304
vCash: 50
If the games wer on NA ice, USA would be 3-0 instead of 0-3

Finnish your Czech is offline  
Old
05-12-2010, 10:40 PM
  #488
ronnyweed
Registered User
 
ronnyweed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,612
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by leafs4stanley View Post
If the games wer on NA ice, USA would be 3-0 instead of 0-3
mainly becuase they wouldnt have the same roster, when the games are played in NA its not a hard trip for the players to make

ronnyweed is offline  
Old
05-13-2010, 10:07 AM
  #489
CDeeps
Registered User
 
CDeeps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 221
vCash: 500
Quite an embarrassing performance by Team USA. I look forward to this tournament every year, and although I wasn't expecting a gold this go-around, I certainly anticipated us making it out of the round robin without issue. Oh well, there's always next year.

CDeeps is offline  
Old
05-13-2010, 11:54 AM
  #490
Rabid Ranger
Imperiled Knight
 
Rabid Ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Abyss
Country: United States
Posts: 19,304
vCash: 500
Reminds me of the Torino Olympics and all of the close but no cigar losses. To lose each game by one goal has to be exasperating. My only issue with Burke and co is if he could have gotten some better offensive talent, but didn't due to some axe that he was grinding. I also agree the absence of veteran leadership in a short tourney played a part. It's a shame, because I think for the most part the defense and goaltending (Clemmensen has acquited himself well) did the job. I only hope they can avoid relegation. What a disgrace that would be. Weird tourney this year though.

Rabid Ranger is offline  
Old
05-13-2010, 04:00 PM
  #491
Tony Piscotta
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hamilton Square
Country: United States
Posts: 762
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I don't get the slagging on Burke and co. Assuming all these players were purposely not invited so they could take fringe players instead is really grasping at straws. In reality, in a tournament that's never held much esteem with American hockey players, they had a hard time convincing more players than normal to come that would have guaranteed a better result. It still doesn't matter though. It's on the players/coaches that were there to produce and they didn't.
Agree with your main point - scape goating is not beneficial unless you recognize the great job that was done getting ready for Vancouver.

However, with regards to this point, it seems like Canada had the same issues for years until Lanny McDonald took over and was able to emphasize the point of playing for the good of Canada and started drawing more top line players. While I can see the logic of using a tournament such as this one as a "trial" of sorts for the younger guys. I agree with the point above about having a handful of veterans in the lineup - even if not in major roles - to both serve as mentors and get a bit of a reward. In fact, these spots could go to not just the top line players, who may see this as more of a chore, but second line veterans who may not have made the NHL All-Star games or Olympic teams in the past but have won either Stanley Cups or done things the right way throughout their careers.

Tony Piscotta is offline  
Old
05-13-2010, 04:20 PM
  #492
Rabid Ranger
Imperiled Knight
 
Rabid Ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Abyss
Country: United States
Posts: 19,304
vCash: 500
I think the bottomline here is you can't force anyone to go to the World Championships, especially Americans who might have the lowest opinion of this tourney of any of the major hockey playing nations. There's also no incentive such as an Olympic roster at stake. It's shame, but its reality.

Rabid Ranger is offline  
Old
05-13-2010, 06:13 PM
  #493
mattihp
Registered User
 
mattihp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Årsta
Country: Finland
Posts: 14,713
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
I think the bottomline here is you can't force anyone to go to the World Championships, especially Americans who might have the lowest opinion of this tourney of any of the major hockey playing nations. There's also no incentive such as an Olympic roster at stake. It's shame, but its reality.
It's weird that americans don't have a shot to make the olympics through the world champs...

I don't think Doan and Nash would've been on the roster for the 06 olympics without great showings at the worlds.

mattihp is offline  
Old
05-13-2010, 07:34 PM
  #494
William H Bonney
Registered User
 
William H Bonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sierra Nevada
Country: United States
Posts: 19,446
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
It's weird that americans don't have a shot to make the olympics through the world champs...

I don't think Doan and Nash would've been on the roster for the 06 olympics without great showings at the worlds.
I think they did with Burke at the helm to some extent. I don't think you would have seen Jack Johnson make the Olympic team without the WC he had last year. For the opposite, Tim Connolly/Jason Pominville probably blew any chance they had to make the team by not going to last years WC.

But even last year Burke and co. said they were surprised at the amount of declined invites when they said it would factor into whether you would be considered for the Olympic Team or not. It just doesn't hold much weight with any American players. Hopefully the NTDP and the instilling of pride for representing your country at a young age will help change that culture going forward though.

William H Bonney is offline  
Old
05-13-2010, 07:42 PM
  #495
William H Bonney
Registered User
 
William H Bonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sierra Nevada
Country: United States
Posts: 19,446
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta View Post
However, with regards to this point, it seems like Canada had the same issues for years until Lanny McDonald took over and was able to emphasize the point of playing for the good of Canada and started drawing more top line players. While I can see the logic of using a tournament such as this one as a "trial" of sorts for the younger guys. I agree with the point above about having a handful of veterans in the lineup - even if not in major roles - to both serve as mentors and get a bit of a reward. In fact, these spots could go to not just the top line players, who may see this as more of a chore, but second line veterans who may not have made the NHL All-Star games or Olympic teams in the past but have won either Stanley Cups or done things the right way throughout their careers.
I agree wholeheartedly, although the challenge of achieving that is more difficult for USA Hockey than it was and is for Hockey Canada. First off, while our depth has improved greatly, it's still on the upward swing. A lot of our talent is currently young and either ill prepared to be significant factors in this tournament (without quality veterans as you point out), such as we had last year. Canada can survive getting 30 invites declined and keep plugging a long with some all star caliber players, we cannot. Secondly, which ties into the depth building, is that Canada's depth allows them to "challenge" more players to accept the challenge of playing in what they view as probably an inferior tournament. Canada can afford to lose quite a few guys from national team consideration going forward if they choose too (much like they did with say Kyle Beach and MDZ on the Junior level) and not be affected. At this point, we can't really make those threats--yet.

I think this is one of the things USAH is counting on with the NTDP though, building a camaraderie between these guys and representing their country at a young age so when they're in the NHL, they still have that fire and passion a la Jack Johnson. Hopefully it works.

William H Bonney is offline  
Old
05-14-2010, 01:51 PM
  #496
usahockey22flyers
Classic Coburn...
 
usahockey22flyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,324
vCash: 500
I remember hearing somewhere that Backes wasnt to much of a judgement call for the olympic team because of his dedication to playing in the WC's

usahockey22flyers is offline  
Old
05-14-2010, 03:48 PM
  #497
ronnyweed
Registered User
 
ronnyweed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,612
vCash: 500
no re-enforcements to make sure relegation doesn't happen?

if there was ever a time to step up for your country, its now.

The likelyhood of relegation is very slim, but if it happens, guys that said no without a good reason should paint their mirrors black

ronnyweed is offline  
Old
05-14-2010, 04:22 PM
  #498
Oyabun
Registered User
 
Oyabun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Sweden
Posts: 770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnyweed View Post
no re-enforcements to make sure relegation doesn't happen?

if there was ever a time to step up for your country, its now.

The likelyhood of relegation is very slim, but if it happens, guys that said no without a good reason should paint their mirrors black
There is no chance that the US will get relegated. Italy, France and Kazakstan, no chance.

Oyabun is offline  
Old
05-14-2010, 04:45 PM
  #499
garbageteam
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 221
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyabun View Post
There is no chance that the US will get relegated. Italy, France and Kazakstan, no chance.
No one thought US would be in relegation round either. But yeah, those are some ****** teams... the USA went into the toughest group in terms of being relegated IMO, as there was no clear team for everyone to beat up on. Finland, Denmark and Germany are more than several levels ahead of Kazakhstan, Italy and France.

Why would any full time NHLer make the trip to play 3 games against the likes of those teams, if they said no to the prospects of playing Russia and Canada? Swim and sink with the team you've got and come back raging next year.

IF the USA does somehow managed to get relegated... I would find next year's roster to be very interesting.

garbageteam is offline  
Old
05-14-2010, 05:16 PM
  #500
Oyabun
Registered User
 
Oyabun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Sweden
Posts: 770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by garbageteam View Post
No one thought US would be in relegation round either. But yeah, those are some ****** teams... the USA went into the toughest group in terms of being relegated IMO, as there was no clear team for everyone to beat up on. Finland, Denmark and Germany are more than several levels ahead of Kazakhstan, Italy and France.

Why would any full time NHLer make the trip to play 3 games against the likes of those teams, if they said no to the prospects of playing Russia and Canada? Swim and sink with the team you've got and come back raging next year.

IF the USA does somehow managed to get relegated... I would find next year's roster to be very interesting.
Well Denmark was supposed to be the team that everybody beat up on, the Danes felt differently. For US, Sweden, Canada, Russia, Czech, Finland, I don't think the argument of a tough group is valid although I do think you got the toughest group.


Your upcoming opponents combined score sheet from their groups is 0. There is nothing to worry about.

Oyabun is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:53 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.