Jim O'Brien and Louie Cap have not progressed in the eyes of the organization. Andre Petersson should be higher and so should Zach Smith. Zubov should be taken off all together.
Top 3 choices are good but not sure about the rest.
Stop just constantly pushing your side of the argument and look at the other side of things as well please.
What do you expect from him?
Of course, it would have been fun to have those cool 2nd round picks so we could have more prospects to be "excited" about... But i'd rather see our team buying and trying to make noise in the playoffs (even if that means only winning a round or two), than to be in the bottom standings and only look at draft picks.
It's weird to see otherwise when you're a fan of a team. Winning is much better than anything else.
For the record, this year is the deepest 2nd round since maybe 03.
I'm not disagreeing with you directly - but it's a joke how I keep reading this crap on HFBoards. Honestly, are you guys all scouts or what?
If you want to evaluate the 2nd round of the 2010 draft do it 6 years from now and see how many NHL players it produced.
I think a draft is a draft - inside the top 10 or 15 you're probably going to produce an NHL player, and your odds go down from there.
I understand what Fuhr is saying (repeatedly) about our 2nd round picks - but to provide further arguement on that - none of Wiercoch, Lehner or whoever else was picked in the 2nd round in the last year or 2 has seen time in the NHL.
This "deep draft" and "weak draft" crap is pure speculation.
Why? He is a worthless second round pick, only worth the cost of a Sutton.
I'm not going to argue with you, but I want you to do a favour for me. Wait 3 games before you criticize Sutton/the Sutton trade again. You have kicked a dead horse so much that it is even deader than dead can possibly be.
I agree that Weircioch wont amount to much either. Our scouting staff can't find talent in the 2nd round.
It's a very late 2nd for Sutton. Big difference. Also, just because we've found guys in the 2nd is past drafts doesn't mean it's a guarantee. I believe it's about a 50/50 proposition for second rounders, no?
It's a very late 2nd for Sutton. Big difference. Also, just because we've found guys in the 2nd is past drafts doesn't mean it's a guarantee. I believe it's about a 50/50 proposition for second rounders, no?
I would be shocked if 50% of 2nd rounders made the NHL (for any substantial time, that is - not playing 10 games).
EDIT: Here is the 2nd round picks for the franchise since it came back to life:
Zubov at #7 is laughable - he's not even a prospect in the eyes of Sens management at this point in time.
Cody Bass at #12 is also brutal. He's been passed by many Sens prospects over the last year and a half. He's out of the top 20 IMO.
Here is my current top 20:
1. D - Jared Cowen
2. D - Patrick Wiercioch
3. F - Andre Petersson
4. G - Robin Lehner
5. F - Zack Smith
6. D - Brian Lee
7. F - Jakob Silfverberg
8. F - Derek Grant
9. F - Colin Greening
10. F - Kaspars Daugavins
11. F - Mike Hoffman
12. F - Erik Condra
13. F - Louie Caporusso
14. F - Jeff Costello
15. F - Jim O'Brien
16. D - Eric Gryba
17. D - Mark Borowiecki
18. D - Craig Schira
19. D - Chris Wideman
20. D - Ben Blood
I'm not going to argue with you, but I want you to do a favour for me. Wait 3 games before you criticize Sutton/the Sutton trade again. You have kicked a dead horse so much that it is even deader than dead can possibly be.
The horse turned into a zombie a couple kicks ago.
1. D - Jared Cowen
2. D - Patrick Wiercioch
3. F - Andre Petersson
4. G - Robin Lehner
5. F - Zack Smith
6. D - Brian Lee
7. F - Jakob Silfverberg
8. F - Derek Grant
9. F - Colin Greening
10. F - Kaspars Daugavins
11. F - Mike Hoffman
12. F - Erik Condra
13. F - Louie Caporusso
14. F - Jeff Costello
15. F - Jim O'Brien
16. D - Eric Gryba
17. D - Mark Borowiecki
18. D - Craig Schira
19. D - Chris Wideman
20. D - Ben Blood
Here is mine (did it last week) :
1- Erik Karlsson, D (8.5C)
2- Jared Cowen, D (8.5C)
3- Patrick Wiercioch, D (8.0D)
4- Robin Lehner, G (8.0D)
5- Andre Petersson, LW (7.5C)
6- Jakob Silfverberg, C (7.0C)
7- Derek Grant, C (7.0D)
8- Kaspars Daugavins, LW (7.0D)
9- Louie Caporusso, C (7.0D)
10- Mike Hoffman, C (7.0D)
11- Zach Smith, C (6.5C)
12- Erik Condra, RW (6.5C)
13- Colin Greening, C (6.5C)
14- Ben Blood, D (6.5C)
15- Chris Wideman, D (7.0D)
16- Mark Borowiecki, D (6.5C)
17- Eric Gryba, D (6.5C)
18- Jeff Costello, LW (6.5C)
19- Jim O'Brien, C (6.5D)
20- Emil Sandin, LW (6.0C)
21- Corey Cowick, LW (6.0D)
22- Cody Bass, C (5.5C)
23- Michael Sdao, D (5.5C)
24- Tomas Kudelka, D (5.5C)
25- Craig Schira, D (5.5C)
26- Geoff Kinrade, D (5.0C)
27- Chris Holt, G (5.0C)
28- Jason Bailey, RW (5.0D)
29- Brad Peltz, LW (5.0D)
Others (players in Europe likely not coming over) :
Roman Wick, RW
Kirill Lyamin, D
Mattias Karlsson, D
Vitaly Anikeyenko, D
Ilya Zubov, LW
Zubov at #7 is laughable - he's not even a prospect in the eyes of Sens management at this point in time.
Cody Bass at #12 is also brutal. He's been passed by many Sens prospects over the last year and a half. He's out of the top 20 IMO.
Here is my current top 20:
1. D - Jared Cowen
2. D - Patrick Wiercioch
3. F - Andre Petersson
4. G - Robin Lehner
5. F - Zack Smith
6. D - Brian Lee
7. F - Jakob Silfverberg
8. F - Derek Grant
9. F - Colin Greening
10. F - Kaspars Daugavins
11. F - Mike Hoffman
12. F - Erik Condra
13. F - Louie Caporusso
14. F - Jeff Costello
15. F - Jim O'Brien
16. D - Eric Gryba
17. D - Mark Borowiecki
18. D - Craig Schira
19. D - Chris Wideman
20. D - Ben Blood
That list is pretty accurate. Once you get past the top 6 or 7 you don't expect much from those players. Caporousso has really fallen off. Good example of a kid who should have left college and turned pro.
People get really high on recent draft picks don't they? It seems like every year the 1st-4th round picks of the most recent draft make the top 6 no matter who else is in the system.
1- Erik Karlsson, D (8.5C)
2- Jared Cowen, D (8.5C)
3- Patrick Wiercioch, D (8.0D)
4- Robin Lehner, G (8.0D)
5- Andre Petersson, LW (7.5C)
6- Jakob Silfverberg, C (7.0C)
7- Derek Grant, C (7.0D)
8- Kaspars Daugavins, LW (7.0D)
9- Louie Caporusso, C (7.0D)
10- Mike Hoffman, C (7.0D)
11- Zach Smith, C (6.5C)
12- Erik Condra, RW (6.5C)
13- Colin Greening, C (6.5C)
14- Ben Blood, D (6.5C)
15- Chris Wideman, D (7.0D)
16- Mark Borowiecki, D (6.5C)
17- Eric Gryba, D (6.5C)
18- Jeff Costello, LW (6.5C)
19- Jim O'Brien, C (6.5D)
20- Emil Sandin, LW (6.0C)
21- Corey Cowick, LW (6.0D)
22- Cody Bass, C (5.5C)
23- Michael Sdao, D (5.5C)
24- Tomas Kudelka, D (5.5C)
25- Craig Schira, D (5.5C)
26- Geoff Kinrade, D (5.0C)
27- Chris Holt, G (5.0C)
28- Jason Bailey, RW (5.0D)
29- Brad Peltz, LW (5.0D)
Good list, I can pretty much agree with all of those.
That list is pretty accurate. Once you get past the top 6 or 7 you don't expect much from those players. Caporousso has really fallen off. Good example of a kid who should have left college and turned pro.
While he has fallen off a bit, I don't think it's a sign he should have come out early. If anything it's a sign he should stay on for senior year. He's facing some adversity having to carry his team without Palushaj who was by all accounts a top level playmaker in college.
On top of losing his linemate/playmaker he's having to carry the offense while being undersized, as long as he keeps his confidence up this will be good for his development. It's a good test, especially for such an undersized guy, if he can prove he can carry Michigan with opponents keying on him physically even more than before his stock will rise.
One more season to learn to be a leader, to fight through tight checking and to mature physically will certianly help make the transition easier. Hopefully this will make him take his speed to a whole new level as well.
Karlsson is our #1, possibly #2 (behind Phillips) defenseman.
Nobody else on our team can move the puck like he can.
Puck movement isn't the only prerequisite needed to be considered a #1 defenceman let alone a dominant one. Karlsson has played better, but he's not dominant nor a #1 guy. He doesn't play in all situations and he rarely matches up against the opposition's top players. Right now, he's probably #4 on the depth chart behind Phillips, Volchenkov, and Kuba. He's definitely ahead of Carkner, Campoli, Lee, and Sutton.
I can understand the excitement over his potential, but let's not go overboard.
People get really high on recent draft picks don't they? It seems like every year the 1st-4th round picks of the most recent draft make the top 6 no matter who else is in the system.
People here are short-sighted and struggle to put things in their proper perspective. It's always been that way, always will be that way, and I have no doubt I have or do make the same mistake. Some posters started getting special feelings from Derek Grant when he tore up junior A. It's understandable, these players are more exciting and have faced less challenges. You can't stink it up as a rookie pro if you haven't even gone to college yet.
Putting O'Brien nineteenth is every bit as nonsensical as putting him fourth. He's a first year pro and he's struggling. It was obvious he wasn't developing that well offensively and wasn't that pure to begin with, but this is still a former first round pick with a comfortable and useful projection, he just isn't knocking on the door like people wanted to imagine he was previously. People wouldn't be down on O'Brien if he went back for an overage season like Hoffman or Cowick this year, or Daugavins last year.
As I've said before, and will add again, these lists are really hard things to come up with. They don't adequately describe or explain how an organization's system looks because it doesn't allow for nuances like drop-offs and clusters to be identified. Moreover, I have always felt skeptical of lists that were received with unanimous approval, wondering if they are more a product of groupthink than anything else. Of course, that isn't an argument for a contrarian, Woodlief-style approach either.
Yet two lottery pick 1sts are worth an Alexei Yashin clone? Is that because Burke made the move and not Murray?
Kessel performs come playoffs.
I'd have no issues if Murray grabbed a young defenseman who had already hit 50 points (equivalent of a 35G forward) for a couple of 1sts. Add a few prospects too.
Say two 1sts, Cowen and Petersson for Weber. Would be fantastic
Last edited by The Great Below: 03-04-2010 at 02:20 PM.
O'Brien has actually been a lot better over the last month or so. They've been using him on the point on the PP and he seems to have excelled with it. Obviously there is room for improvement, but it's an encouraging sign.
For the people jumping up and down about Derek Grant, keep in mind that his freshman year is pretty similar right now to Caporusso's, and Caporusso was an 18 year old his freshman year. When Caporusso was 19 (Grant's current age), he had 49 points in just 41 games. Just food for thought. He hasn't had as good a year this year, but he's still producing at the same rate as Grant, so I don't think Grant should be above him in rankings. But that's just me.
Last edited by The Mars Volchenkov: 03-04-2010 at 02:21 PM.
Some good points have been made recently in this thread. I'd like to mention why i gave a 7.0D to Grant and have him ahead of Caporusso on my list
Caporusso is now older and didn't progress every season (well not this one) like we can hope that Grant do. Grant also has more size and looks like a mini-Spezza to me, but maybe more well-rounded, hence future 3rd line center?
7 is for his maximum potential, which is (IMO), 2nd line center.
D means he could drop 3 ratings, which would mean a good player in the AHL.
The way to be conservative with that kind of prospect. Look at other teams prospects pools, they have full of 7.0D's...
So he is higher than Caporusso on my list, but he has the exact same grade which is somewhere between a good AHL player and a NHL 2nd line forward
And i don't know, i was maybe too hard on O'Brien to have him at 19th but i feel and think that many of our prospects have better chances to make it. I just lost faith in him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour
BTW, I like Xspyrit's list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpezDispenser
Good list, I can pretty much agree with all of those.
1- Erik Karlsson, D (8.5C)
2- Jared Cowen, D (8.5C)
3- Patrick Wiercioch, D (8.0D)
4- Robin Lehner, G (8.0D)
5- Andre Petersson, LW (7.5C)
6- Jakob Silfverberg, C (7.0C)
7- Derek Grant, C (7.0D)
8- Kaspars Daugavins, LW (7.0D)
9- Louie Caporusso, C (7.0D)
10- Mike Hoffman, C (7.0D)
11- Zach Smith, C (6.5C)
12- Erik Condra, RW (6.5C)
13- Colin Greening, C (6.5C)
14- Ben Blood, D (6.5C)
15- Chris Wideman, D (7.0D)
16- Mark Borowiecki, D (6.5C)
17- Eric Gryba, D (6.5C)
18- Jeff Costello, LW (6.5C)
19- Jim O'Brien, C (6.5D)
20- Emil Sandin, LW (6.0C)
21- Corey Cowick, LW (6.0D)
22- Cody Bass, C (5.5C)
23- Michael Sdao, D (5.5C)
24- Tomas Kudelka, D (5.5C)
25- Craig Schira, D (5.5C)
26- Geoff Kinrade, D (5.0C)
27- Chris Holt, G (5.0C)
28- Jason Bailey, RW (5.0D)
29- Brad Peltz, LW (5.0D)
I like this list as well, just happened to pretty well make all the adjustments I wanted when I looked at other lists. If anything ZSmith a little higher just because he was supposed to make it this year and was pretty solid in his stint this year.
What do you expect from him?
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