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Old
03-09-2010, 03:16 AM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTheGreat View Post
Right, which is what I am saying. I was responding to his post saying that the Detroit method is the way to build a cup team. I said it could be done our way as well, as we've seen with Pittsburgh, as well as our teams in 2001 and 1996.
Bowman and Holland have the same distinction with their two hall of fame centers as does Lacroix.

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Old
03-09-2010, 03:20 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by volaju View Post
"Your horrendous drafting is just a bit worse than our horrendous drafting! Take that, knave!"
Have look after round 1

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Old
03-09-2010, 03:32 AM
  #253
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That's nice, but the original post I responded to directly attacks the Phoenix Coyotes' first round draft history. I'm not here to defend their drafting history because I know nothing about it -- but I do find it laughable to attack another team's first round picks, considering our history.

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03-09-2010, 03:37 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by volaju View Post
That's nice, but the original post I responded to directly attacks the Phoenix Coyotes' first round draft history. I'm not here to defend their drafting history because I know nothing about it -- but I do find it laughable to attack another team's first round picks, considering our history.
Which is still better than the Yotes.

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03-09-2010, 03:50 AM
  #255
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And we've come full circle.

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03-09-2010, 05:23 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volaju View Post
That's nice, but the original post I responded to directly attacks the Phoenix Coyotes' first round draft history. I'm not here to defend their drafting history because I know nothing about it -- but I do find it laughable to attack another team's first round picks, considering our history.
They should've done much better than we did considering where they picked and we picked for most of our histories.

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03-09-2010, 05:26 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by volaju View Post
And we've come full circle.
Yes we did a better job, with lower picks and less of them.

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03-09-2010, 07:27 AM
  #258
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I personally love where this discussion about Wolski and Mueller has gone. I've learned so many new things, to wit:

1) To win a Stanley Cup, it helps to have Hall of Famers at center and in goal.
2) Lots of times, first round picks don't become stars in the league.

I've also been pleased to follow the completely non-biased discussion worthy of the best philosophical minds about the relative quality of different parts of the country, which has completely convinced me of the following:

3) Phoenix is a crappy town for hockey and in general a crappy place to live.
4) Colorado is an awesome place to live and hockey there is better.


Last edited by 54toscore: 03-09-2010 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Making the post a bit less ambiguous.
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Old
03-09-2010, 07:49 AM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volaju View Post
Psst, I'm an Avs fan, but I've got some information that might be valuable to you in your argument ...

Colorado Avalanche first round draft picks:

1995 Marc Denis
1996 Peter Ratchuk
1997 Kevin Grimes
1998 Scott Parker
1998 Martin Skoula
1998 Robyn Regehr
1998 Alex Tanguay
1999 Mikhail Kuleshov
2000 Vaclav Nedorost
2002 Jonas Johansson
2004 Wojtek Wolski
2006 Chris Stewart
2007 Kevin Shattenkirk
2009 Matt Duchene

I mean, let's be honest, our first round drafting has been pretty bad. It looks good from 2004 on (though time will tell), but the only notables before 2004 are Regehr and Tanguay. This isn't exactly a fight you want to pick with another franchise.
I agree. Everyone touts Lacroix's genius as a GM - and he certainly deserves ample credit. But boy, did he and his team tank some first round picks during the glory years.

-AB

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03-09-2010, 08:19 AM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyguy2007 View Post
I personally love where this discussion about Wolski and Mueller has gone. I've learned so many new things, to wit:

1) To win a Stanley Cup, it helps to have Hall of Famers at center and in goal.
2) Lots of times, first round picks don't become stars in the league.
3) Phoenix is a crappy town for hockey and in general a crappy place to live.
4) Colorado is an awesome place to live and hockey there is better.
How the heck would u know Phx is a crappy place to live? Ever been there? I wonder why so many snow birds and canadians are always here...hmmmmmm

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Old
03-09-2010, 08:30 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I agree. Everyone touts Lacroix's genius as a GM - and he certainly deserves ample credit. But boy, did he and his team tank some first round picks during the glory years.

-AB
You have to also understand Lacroix was drafting bottom 5 every single year basically, its hard to land good picks in that area of the draft. And the one time he had respectable picks he landed Tanguay and Regher not bad.

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03-09-2010, 08:31 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by doaner View Post
How the heck would u know Phx is a crappy place to live? Ever been there? I wonder why so many snow birds and canadians are always here...hmmmmmm
I know Phoenix is a crappy place to live because people there can't detect sarcasm when it's hitting them over the head.

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Old
03-09-2010, 08:59 AM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
You have to also understand Lacroix was drafting bottom 5 every single year basically, its hard to land good picks in that area of the draft. And the one time he had respectable picks he landed Tanguay and Regher not bad.
Yes, he had #25/26 picks some years. But, he also had Skoula at #17, Parker at #20, Nedorost at #14.

But, it's not just that the picks in the late 20s were bad, they were generally horrible. Johansson played 1 NHL game. Kuleshov played 3. Grimes played zero. Ratchuk barely over a quarter season.

The Avs first round drafting was pretty awful for some years there.

-AB

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03-09-2010, 09:26 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Yes, he had #25/26 picks some years. But, he also had Skoula at #17, Parker at #20, Nedorost at #14.

But, it's not just that the picks in the late 20s were bad, they were generally horrible. Johansson played 1 NHL game. Kuleshov played 3. Grimes played zero. Ratchuk barely over a quarter season.

The Avs first round drafting was pretty awful for some years there.

-AB
Skoula at #17 is a good pick--the average prospect drafted at that position doesn't even become an NHL regular. I know we're all disappointed that he didn't develop into Scott Niedermayer, but he did take a regular shift on the Cup winning team.

Parker at #20 was clearly drafted based on team need, which he adequately filled until the NHL changed its rules.

And no one can argue Tanguay or Regehr as really solid picks.

I know Simon Gagne, Scott Gomez (in 1st round), Mike Fischer, and Mike Ribiero (in 2nd round) were drafted later that same year, but you could do this kind of analysis with any team during any draft year.

Of course, I do agree regarding the other years...ugh. At least the Avs got something back for half of them (2nd rounder for Denis, Kono for Johansson, 2nd rounder for Nedorost).

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03-09-2010, 09:39 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyguy2007 View Post
Skoula at #17 is a good pick--the average prospect drafted at that position doesn't even become an NHL regular. I know we're all disappointed that he didn't develop into Scott Niedermayer, but he did take a regular shift on the Cup winning team.

Parker at #20 was clearly drafted based on team need, which he adequately filled until the NHL changed its rules.

And no one can argue Tanguay or Regehr as really solid picks.

I know Simon Gagne, Scott Gomez (in 1st round), Mike Fischer, and Mike Ribiero (in 2nd round) were drafted later that same year, but you could do this kind of analysis with any team during any draft year.

Of course, I do agree regarding the other years...ugh. At least the Avs got something back for half of them (2nd rounder for Denis, Kono for Johansson, 2nd rounder for Nedorost).
I was so disappointing by Nedorost. I think he had a goal and a assist in first NHL game (vs Penguins if I am correct). And most important, he played on the line with Sakic himself
Then, nothing....

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Old
03-09-2010, 12:13 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by hockeyguy2007 View Post
I know Simon Gagne, Scott Gomez (in 1st round), Mike Fischer, and Mike Ribiero (in 2nd round) were drafted later that same year, but you could do this kind of analysis with any team during any draft year.

I agree. But 'later in the draft' is one thing. 'Immediately following, at the same position' is another.

Two picks that do rankle though:

In 1998, the Avs drafted Parker, and the very next forward taken was Simon Gagne (2 picks later).

In 1999, the Avs drafted Kuleshov, and the very next player drafted (at the same position) was Havlat. Ouch.

-AB

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03-09-2010, 12:27 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post

In 1999, the Avs drafted Kuleshov, and the very next player drafted (at the same position) was Havlat. Ouch.

-AB
That one would upset me more if it were a case of being a draft easy to get players. The '99 draft was awful. Besides the Sedins there were like two other guys in the 1st round worth anything.

'98 was a clearer case of a bad pick.

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03-09-2010, 01:59 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Yes, he had #25/26 picks some years. But, he also had Skoula at #17, Parker at #20, Nedorost at #14.

But, it's not just that the picks in the late 20s were bad, they were generally horrible. Johansson played 1 NHL game. Kuleshov played 3. Grimes played zero. Ratchuk barely over a quarter season.

The Avs first round drafting was pretty awful for some years there.

-AB
Too many of those picks were trying to hit home runs. In hindsight, PL should have went and drafted more safe picks.

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03-09-2010, 02:07 PM
  #269
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There was also trying to pick up goons (such as Grimes and Parker) because of the overreaction to simmon's departure and Fight Night in the Joe.

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03-09-2010, 02:31 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
There was also trying to pick up goons (such as Grimes and Parker) because of the overreaction to simmon's departure and Fight Night in the Joe.
Exactly--Parker was drafted based on need. (Avs had already drafted Tanguay, Skoula, and Regehr before him.)

We can look back and say it was stupid to not have drafted Gagne in that spot, but then again Tanguay ended up playing quite capably in that space on the team depth chart. Plus, back in the day with no salary cap as impediment and an enormous payroll but with much longer periods of RFA, I can see such a need-based approach as justified.

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Old
03-10-2010, 03:00 AM
  #271
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I know that I'm allowed to ignore threads...but really, should I have to do so to keep from watching a conference foe have a prominent thread on the Avalanche section of HF?

Couldn't we have a Cody Hodgson page instead? While I can't bring myself to hate him, I can at least hate his fans. Wolski on the other hand is so damn luke-warm I find it hard to even acknowledge his existence when he scores a goal in the final minute of a game against a team that just traded him away.

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03-10-2010, 04:29 AM
  #272
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I think you are a little confused as to what the draft, and winning in the NHL is all about. Hanzal is a future Selke winner, by the way. You can ask Joe Thornton about that one.

What facts? The only fact I'm looking is that the Coyotes didn't even have a ****ing full time scouting staff before Mike Barnett took over. Then, even though he had hired scouts, he traded away a ton of picks (including our 2003 first rounder) so there was nothing to draft with. I'm not disputing the claim the Coyotes are terrible at the draft, especially 2004 and back, but having watched your organization just trade a great young player for two of our draftees, I find your argument a little weak.

Only Koreis didn't make the NHL. You should go check how many teams actually do better. Sjostrom is not the "peak" and I'm not sure where you got that from.
FACT: None of your draft picks in the past 10 years have been an impact players (i.e. All-Star, Hart, Vezina, Calder winners, etc...).

You talk big about Hanzal as a future Selke winner, he couldn't even make the Czech Olympic roster this year. I have a feeling when he and Turris peak, it won't be with the Yotes ala Briere.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't have time to go through every pick, but if I'm right, think about it. Pick any other team in the NHL, and they have at least one standout pick.

Sure they're in a playoff position now, band-aid together like they just completed an expansion draft, but where's your core? Bryz, Yandle, Hanzal, Turris??? Who's in the pipelines that will take this team to the next level?

Compare that to LA. They stuck with Frolov, Brown, Kopitar, Doughty, Johnson, and now Quick. They have a prospects like Bernier, Hickey, Schenn up in coming. This team looks ready to contend for years to come.

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03-10-2010, 04:31 AM
  #273
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No, not when talking about this team. There is absolutely no relationship between the cup winning teams of '96 and '01 and what we see when we look at the Avalanche of today. Stephane Yelle aside, of course. Truth is, the Avs were bad much more recently than they were mediocre, which was more recent than when they were an elite team. Not to say things aren't looking up.
Foote and Hejduk say "Hi".

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Old
03-10-2010, 07:40 AM
  #274
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Foote and Hejduk say "Hi".
Hi Footer! Wassup Hedjie?

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Old
03-11-2010, 01:20 AM
  #275
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Tippet is playing Wolski on the point

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