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Trade Deadline, UFAs, RFAs and more - Part III

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Old
03-04-2010, 04:33 PM
  #601
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This is what almost every hockey writer doesn't understand about that, Libertine.

They're not ignoring it. It's just not how they operate. They truly believe that anybody could be the goalie of the team is good enough in front of him.

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03-04-2010, 04:37 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
This is what almost every hockey writer doesn't understand about that, Libertine.

They're not ignoring it. It's just not how they operate. They truly believe that anybody could be the goalie of the team is good enough in front of him.
It really doesn't matter why at this point we're stuck with Leighton and Boucher. The point is that we are and it's ****ing horrible and Holmgren deserves to be ripped a new *******.

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03-04-2010, 04:38 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
That's what I'm saying. Luongo didn't lose the game for team Canada, he certainly didn't win it for them. They easily had the best team, they just needed a goalie to not lose. I wouldn't call his performance big in the least. In fact, it was actually pretty shakey.
He won the game, did enough to win.


All I ask of goalies who are said to be proven.

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03-04-2010, 09:23 PM
  #604
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As great as Pronger has been, I still wish we had sent Lupul and a 3rd to Minnesota and take a good defenseman in the 1st round, re-signed Knuble.

Gagne-Richards-Knuble
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Giroux-Asham
Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere

Timonen-Coburn
Carle-UFA
Parent-Syvret/Bartulis

Harding
Emery?


That would have fit under the cap, I think.

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03-04-2010, 09:31 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
As great as Pronger has been, I still wish we had sent Lupul and a 3rd to Minnesota and take a good defenseman in the 1st round, re-signed Knuble.

Gagne-Richards-Knuble
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Giroux-Asham
Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere

Timonen-Coburn
Carle-UFA
Parent-Syvret/Bartulis

Harding
Emery?


That would have fit under the cap, I think.
We can probably still get Harding this offseason for a player like Parent and a prospect like Laliberte/Labrecque/Nodl. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Pronger is everything I every hoped he would be for the Flyers. Nobody we could've EVER picked up could have the same impact that Pronger has had this season. Not one player.

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03-04-2010, 09:34 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
As great as Pronger has been, I still wish we had sent Lupul and a 3rd to Minnesota and take a good defenseman in the 1st round, re-signed Knuble.

Gagne-Richards-Knuble
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Giroux-Asham
Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere

Timonen-Coburn
Carle-UFA
Parent-Syvret/Bartulis

Harding
Emery?


That would have fit under the cap, I think.
the same team that loss to the pens last season?

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03-04-2010, 09:43 PM
  #607
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We're also under the assumption that Minnesota would have taken Lupul + a 3rd for Harding.

I feel assured they wouldn't have.

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03-04-2010, 09:47 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
We're also under the assumption that Minnesota would have taken Lupul + a 3rd for Harding.

I feel assured they wouldn't have.

Almost every Wild fan was willing to take that deal. I think it would have helped both teams, honestly.

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03-04-2010, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
the same team that loss to the pens last season?
We could have acquired a decent defenseman and possible young #1 goaltender and re-signed Knuble. The offensive production would be top 5 in the league, easily.

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03-04-2010, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Almost every Wild fan was willing to take that deal. I think it would have helped both teams, honestly.
If the fans were the GM's, 95% if the league would be traded once a month.

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03-04-2010, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
If the fans were the GM's, 95% if the league would be traded once a month.
You're totally right, but that trade actually made some sense for both sides.

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03-04-2010, 09:54 PM
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Although I am not fond of Holmgren mortgaging the future for Pronger I don't see how going for Harding instead would make us a better team. Perhaps he will be a good number one, but I see no reason to get excited over him.

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03-04-2010, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
You're totally right, but that trade actually made some sense for both sides.
A lot of things also make sense when you're the GM of both teams.

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03-04-2010, 09:55 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Although I am not fond of Holmgren mortgaging the future for Pronger I don't see how going for Harding instead would make us a better team. Perhaps he will be a good number one, but I see no reason to get excited over him.
We'd have a 1st from last year, a 1st this year, Sbisa, Knuble, and #4-5 defenseman. We'd be better set up going forward, that is for sure. Oh, well. At least Halladay looks awesome already. I will be in Clearwater in ten days.

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03-04-2010, 09:57 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
A lot of things also make sense when you're the GM of both teams.
A lot of things make sense to you and you alone when you're Paul Holmgren.

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03-04-2010, 10:06 PM
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We'd have a 1st from last year, a 1st this year, Sbisa, Knuble, and #4-5 defenseman. We'd be better set up going forward, that is for sure. Oh, well. At least Halladay looks awesome already. I will be in Clearwater in ten days.
Okay you have me sold.

Who knew there would come a day where the Phillies would be the ones to never let us down. Enjoy your time in Clearwater.

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03-04-2010, 10:10 PM
  #617
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The biggest problem I have from the Pronger trade was not making this year's first conditional, whether it be performance based or optional. That's what really signals to me that Holmgren never negotiated with Bob Murray. It was take it or leave it. I said back then that if this was really the route they wanted to take, they should have traded own with the Islanders (like the Ducks did) and pick up an extra pick or 2, and give yourself something else to work with.

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03-04-2010, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Okay you have me sold.

Who knew there would come a day where the Phillies would be the ones to never let us down. Enjoy your time in Clearwater.

I feel bad about Sbisa, especially. Apparently, he started crying when he found out he was traded. I had seen him at prospects camp in '08 and was blown away by his skating. I was telling everyone who would listen that he'd be a Flyer last year.

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03-04-2010, 10:30 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
The biggest problem I have from the Pronger trade was not making this year's first conditional, whether it be performance based or optional. That's what really signals to me that Holmgren never negotiated with Bob Murray. It was take it or leave it. I said back then that if this was really the route they wanted to take, they should have traded own with the Islanders (like the Ducks did) and pick up an extra pick or 2, and give yourself something else to work with.
It seemed like he just followed the template of the trade Anaheim made to acquire Pronger, but made the third conditional instead of the first so they couldn't turn it down. I remember reading an interview with Florida GM Randy Sexton after he traded Bouwmeester. He made it sound like it was shaking up to be a buyer's market until Holmgren set the market with the Pronger trade. I was then convinced he overpaid.

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I feel bad about Sbisa, especially. Apparently, he started crying when he found out he was traded. I had seen him at prospects camp in '08 and was blown away by his skating. I was telling everyone who would listen that he'd be a Flyer last year.
I felt bad for him, too. I was so mad when that deal went down I immediately turned off the TV even though I am a huge draft geek. Only Holmgren can trade for Pronger and end up making angry. I like Pronger, but I've never been comfortable with him giving up so much future with our cap problems. Not to mention he mortgaged the future for a team that isn't any better than it was two years ago.

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03-04-2010, 10:32 PM
  #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I felt bad for him, too. I was so mad when that deal went down I immediately turned off the TV even though I am a huge draft geek. Only Holmgren can trade for Pronger and end up making angry. I like Pronger, but I've never been comfortable with him giving up so much future with our cap problems. Not to mention he mortgaged the future for a team that isn't any better than it was two years ago.
If we don't win the Cup by 2012-2013, that trade and subsequent contract is going to be a horrible, horrible failure that will most likely blight the future of the franchise, simply cannot give up that many assets and not win a Cup.

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03-04-2010, 10:45 PM
  #621
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If we don't win the Cup by 2012-2013, that trade and subsequent contract is going to be a horrible, horrible failure that will most likely blight the future of the franchise, simply cannot give up that many assets and not win a Cup.
I think that is a real possibility with the way Holmgren has boxed us in with bad contracts, no cap space, no legit prospects, and the picks he traded away. It seems like we are always destined to be a piece or two away with his management style. We also still lack a goalie and the market this summer isn't very good.

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03-04-2010, 10:51 PM
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I think that is a real possibility with the way Holmgren has boxed us in with bad contracts, no cap space, no legit prospects, and the picks he traded away. It seems like we are always destined to be a piece or two away with his management style. We also still lack a goalie and the market this summer isn't very good.
I still try to puzzle this out in my mind.

A) We want to win NOW, we acquired a 35 year-old All-Star d-man who will only decline.

B) Our starting goalie is Michael Leighton.

And I don't buy the crap about how problems with Emery weren't predictable, yes they were and half the board predicted them.

It's just so baffling to me. When Holmgren goes home at night, does he realize why this scenario doesn't work? I'm scared that he doesn't.

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03-04-2010, 10:53 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
It seemed like he just followed the template of the trade Anaheim made to acquire Pronger, but made the third conditional instead of the first so they couldn't turn it down. I remember reading an interview with Florida GM Randy Sexton after he traded Bouwmeester. He made it sound like it was shaking up to be a buyer's market until Holmgren set the market with the Pronger trade. I was then convinced he overpaid.
Bob Murray said no other offer was close. You never hear that. You might get a Burke comment like "someone offered us a 2nd and 4th for Ponikarovsky but we liked Luca Caputi more," but Murray outright inferred that no other offer was in the ballpark. You don't usually hear a GM say that, they say "we had a lot of offers on the table, this is just what we really wanted."

There was not a negotiation, and that's not how you operate at this level.

Funny thing is, after the draft, we'll see the Flyers beat writers write up pieces about how the Flyers were trying to trade for this player and trade up in the draft with that team to draft another player.

Sarah Baicker's won my award for favorite tweet of the day yesterday:

sbaicker So, three second-round picks involved in deals today. Not having one sure is burning the #Flyers, huh? 2:33 PM Mar 3rd via web

Right after this Raffi Torres was traded for another 2nd. For people like me who didn't mind Roloson (as long as it wasn't a stupid trade), and saw the rumor that the asking price was a 3rd round pick - don't forget that that pick is also tied up next year as part of the condition from the Pronger trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I felt bad for him, too. I was so mad when that deal went down I immediately turned off the TV even though I am a huge draft geek. Only Holmgren can trade for Pronger and end up making angry. I like Pronger, but I've never been comfortable with him giving up so much future with our cap problems. Not to mention he mortgaged the future for a team that isn't any better than it was two years ago.
Pretty much how I see it. Pronger is a trade you make to close the deal. I thought going in we should have been the 2nd best team in the East behind Pittsburgh. But I didn't think the Flyers were quite in position to bring in the closer. Namely because they didn't fire Stevens before that. You could at least sell me more after having done that like they were actually taking this seriously, but keeping Stevens and going with Emery-Boucher didn't cut it.

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03-04-2010, 11:20 PM
  #624
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I still try to puzzle this out in my mind.

A) We want to win NOW, we acquired a 35 year-old All-Star d-man who will only decline.

B) Our starting goalie is Michael Leighton.

And I don't buy the crap about how problems with Emery weren't predictable, yes they were and half the board predicted them.

It's just so baffling to me. When Holmgren goes home at night, does he realize why this scenario doesn't work? I'm scared that he doesn't.
It baffles me as well. You can't go all in with Pronger and then sit on your hands with a potential disaster waiting to happen in goal. The fact that he claims he wasn't looking for goaltending leads me to believe he doesn't realize it. How can you not even have an interest in a goalie? It makes no sense.


I don't buy the crap about Emery either. Even if someone argues his injury wasn't predictable, the fact is he was a huge gamble going into the season and Holmgren needed other options. I personally felt we'd be shopping for a new goalie. I just thought it would be performance based rather than injury based.


Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Bob Murray said no other offer was close. You never hear that. You might get a Burke comment like "someone offered us a 2nd and 4th for Ponikarovsky but we liked Luca Caputi more," but Murray outright inferred that no other offer was in the ballpark. You don't usually hear a GM say that, they say "we had a lot of offers on the table, this is just what we really wanted."

There was not a negotiation, and that's not how you operate at this level.

Funny thing is, after the draft, we'll see the Flyers beat writers write up pieces about how the Flyers were trying to trade for this player and trade up in the draft with that team to draft another player.

Sarah Baicker's won my award for favorite tweet of the day yesterday:

sbaicker So, three second-round picks involved in deals today. Not having one sure is burning the #Flyers, huh? 2:33 PM Mar 3rd via web

Right after this Raffi Torres was traded for another 2nd. For people like me who didn't mind Roloson (as long as it wasn't a stupid trade), and saw the rumor that the asking price was a 3rd round pick - don't forget that that pick is also tied up next year as part of the condition from the Pronger trade.
Holmgren just seems to decide if he wants something he will get it no matter what. He doesn't care if he overpays because he'll just worry about the future in the future.

That reminds me. Did you see Holmgren's quotes on CSN Philly about the deadline? He tried to act like the lack of picks didn't hurt him. He said that only centermen were traded for 2nd round picks and they didn't need a center.


Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Pretty much how I see it. Pronger is a trade you make to close the deal. I thought going in we should have been the 2nd best team in the East behind Pittsburgh. But I didn't think the Flyers were quite in position to bring in the closer. Namely because they didn't fire Stevens before that. You could at least sell me more after having done that like they were actually taking this seriously, but keeping Stevens and going with Emery-Boucher didn't cut it.
It's just like the Leighton thing. Homer appears to go all in with the Pronger trade, but for whatever reason he is reluctant to finish the job. The Stevens thing burns me up because he offered Laviolette the Phantoms job so he knew there was going to come a time where he needed to can Stevens. So why not can him then instead of hoping he would suddenly work out?

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03-04-2010, 11:30 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Holmgren just seems to decide if he wants something he will get it no matter what. He doesn't care if he overpays because he'll just worry about the future in the future.

That reminds me. Did you see Holmgren's quotes on CSN Philly about the deadline? He tried to act like the lack of picks didn't hurt him. He said that only centermen were traded for 2nd round picks and they didn't need a center.



It's just like the Leighton thing. Homer appears to go all in with the Pronger trade, but for whatever reason he is reluctant to finish the job. The Stevens thing burns me up because he offered Laviolette the Phantoms job so he knew there was going to come a time where he needed to can Stevens. So why not can him then instead of hoping he would suddenly work out?
First off, I don't read CSN, so no. I don't go to CSN for constructive, cognitive, hockey analysis (except for Bill Clement)

Second, Holmgren didn't want to fire Stevens. I maintain that Snider had enough and made that decision, and there's nothing anyone's ever going to tell me to make me think otherwise. Too convenient that it happened at the ONLY possible time that the Sixers could do the ONLY possible thing that could trump the Flyers in the news cycle.

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