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With no moves made, what would you rather have?

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Old
03-03-2010, 06:55 PM
  #51
Inferno
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
It's not two 2nd rounders that would turn this team around. It's the fact that making those moves would signal a change in philosophy.

And I don't see how trading Prospal and Jokinen has any relevance to Kovalchuk signing here. Both are free agents at the end of the year so it's not like Kovalchuk would be signing here to play with them. Do you really think Kovalchuk is going to be licking his chops because the Rangers locked up a 7th seed the previous year and lost in the first round? If Kovalchuk's primary concern is playing on a contending team then it's a lost cause in trying to acquire him anyway because he'll just resign with the Devils before Sather even gets a chance to negotiate with him.
You're a free agent. Inarguably every teams #1 choice. Most of the offers are going to be similar...8...9....9.5 million a year. You've only seen the playoffs once in your career, and turned down a mega contract for the chance to win.

Who do you cross off your list? A team that had a playoff spot, but gave up on it, would be one of the first teams I would cross off. And trading away Jokinen and Prospal for draft picks would almost 100% assure us of no playoffs.

A change in philosophy? Your change in philosophy is to say, well...we have a playoff spot right in our hands, but we choose to give it away for a couple of 2nd rounders in a pretty mediocre draft. What the hell kind of a philosophy is that?

I prefer to say, I dont want to give up on the future, but I want to win, I want my kids to know what its like to win, I want the MDZ's of the world to get their feet wet in playoff hockey. I want Matt Gilroy to see what that intensity is like, I want Henrik Lundqvist to single handedly win us a series, I want Dubinsky and Callahan to show some heart. Those lessons, that attitude, is worth 100 times the defeatist attitude and philosophy you want the organization to take.

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03-03-2010, 06:59 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
And I think this organization is doing that now more than they ever have. Speculating on what Prospal might have brought while your team is sitting tied for a playoff spot doesn't really matter. What are you going to tell guys like Callahan, Lundqvist, Dubinksy, etc... "Hey, guys, we're in a playoff spot but you (we) aren't good enough to win, in our opinion, so we're going to get some draft picks". I think you can sell that if your team sucks. I don't think you can if you're in a playoff spot.
So...if I never paid my taxes, and now I start paying them some of the time, I'm good? Being patient to some degree is better than not being patient at all, but it's not good enough.

What am I going to tell those players? "Hey guys, you're being paid millions of dollars to play a game. You'll do what's best for this team for a year or two, and then you might actually get to play on a good team, instead of being the few bright spots on a bad team."

If I'm Glen Sather, I might want to throw in comments like "The only reason you're being asked to bear with us is because I did an embarrassingly awful job." But then again, I'd like to think I have SOME integrity.

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Change takes time. I think the future is brighter than you do and if you're advocating patience, etc... then I don't see what the big deal is to talk about two or three years down the road.
The big deal is that in two or three years, we'll probably be in a very similar situation to now. Until you can somehow acquire a couple of very strong young players on entry contracts, you're not going anywhere.

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Is playoff experience going to hurt Staal, Dubi, Cally, Anisimov, Gilroy, etc....? I don't think so.
Hurt? No. I don't really think that one losing round of playoff hockey is going to be very much help, either. What exactly are they going to learn? How to get toyed with and beaten by a much better team? Most of them already have that experience, and it doesn't seem to be doing very much to improve them.

What WILL hurt the team is not having as many opportunities as possible to draft an impact player. I'd rather have that than what little experience these players are going to acquire.

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Edmonton is a "bad" team. The Rangers are an average team.
There are two differences between the Oilers and the Rangers: injuries and goaltending. That isn't meant as a compliment to our team.

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How many deals today were for 1st round picks? Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from - but I think it's a really tough sell for a team on the playoff bubble that's been in the hunt all year long that you're just going to abandon ship and tell your boss (Dolan) that he's going to lose millions despite the fact that you're fielding a competitive team with an elite goalie. Put yourself in that position.
Well, as the consumer, I'd like to put myself in the position of assuming that the person in charge of the team is doing what's best for the future of the team, not the future of his career. Now, obviously, I'm not that naive that I would assume that that's the case. It's just that some people in Sather's position are good enough at their job that they can do what's best for the team and what's best for their career at once. Sather hasn't been able to do that for about 20 years now. In terms of the big picture, Sather's NEVER done what's best for this franchise, and whatever dolt they get to replace him, whether it's Messier or some other token example of nepotism, will be paying for it. And so will season ticket holders.

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I don't argue that that's a good way to build a team. It is. I just don't think it's realistic for this team right now. If they were significantly worse. Yes. And, as much as Sather has really sucked leading up to the lockout, this organization has clearly changed its point of view about its young talent and that's certainly a step forward. Maybe I'm a little more optimistic than you are, but I think this team has a future down the road a bit.
There is no better time to do that than the present. Every day/season that this team delays making the sacrifices necessary will simply be yet another day/season wasted. This team's future is the present. This is the future. 50/50 shots at the playoffs, and first or second round exits. This team will continue to go around in circles, as it has for years now. The ticket prices will keep going up, and every season certain fans will balk at the idea of actually showing some REAL patience, while nothing ever changes.

As long as this is the path the New York Rangers continue to take, it's going to be a very, very long time before this team is any good. It's just a shame that we have a guy on our team that will go down as one of the franchise's greatest players ever, and the prime of his career is just going to be wasted.

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Old
03-03-2010, 07:05 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Take your own advice. This team has no chance in the playoffs, and this is just par for the course. Delaying the inevitable. This team will never be a serious contender until it makes the big sacrifice.
No chance in the playoffs? All respect to your opinion. I can understand where you and other fans are going with it, but anyway, I think differently. Unless we play the Caps or Pens of course. haha

I predict the Rangers to be in 6th or 7th place at the end of this season. So, we just take Montreal's place because I don't think they're going anywhere to begin with unless Cammalleri comes back right now from his injury.

Leave the division leaders how it is and say we're either 6th or 7th. I think we match up to the Devils well and the Sens also. Henrik seems to be on top of his game when he's facing Brodeur and overall we're better than the Sens overall head-to-head (3-1-0).

There's round 2 for us...

And like I said before, it's the playoffs, I'll always be worried out of my mined, but I know my team's completely capable of 5 out of the 7 other teams in the East that'll make the playoffs.

C'mon, let's be fans and back our team up no matter what!

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03-03-2010, 07:08 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
You're a free agent. Inarguably every teams #1 choice. Most of the offers are going to be similar...8...9....9.5 million a year. You've only seen the playoffs once in your career, and turned down a mega contract for the chance to win.

Who do you cross off your list? A team that had a playoff spot, but gave up on it, would be one of the first teams I would cross off. And trading away Jokinen and Prospal for draft picks would almost 100% assure us of no playoffs.

A change in philosophy? Your change in philosophy is to say, well...we have a playoff spot right in our hands, but we choose to give it away for a couple of 2nd rounders in a pretty mediocre draft. What the hell kind of a philosophy is that?

I prefer to say, I dont want to give up on the future, but I want to win, I want my kids to know what its like to win, I want the MDZ's of the world to get their feet wet in playoff hockey. I want Matt Gilroy to see what that intensity is like, I want Henrik Lundqvist to single handedly win us a series, I want Dubinsky and Callahan to show some heart. Those lessons, that attitude, is worth 100 times the defeatist attitude and philosophy you want the organization to take.
Once again, if Kovalchuk's concern is to win then the Rangers are already out of it. There are going to be team's with much more recent success offering him contracts. The whole argument of making the playoffs to lure in Kovalchuk would make sense if we were competing against the Islanders, Panthers, and Blue Jackets for his services. If how this year plays out decides with whom Kovalchuk signs then we stand no chance in bidding against the Devils, Kings, Red Wings, or the other teams ahead of us in the standings that plan on going after him.

Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, and Simon Gagne were all young players when the Flyers "gave up on the season" and purged the team in 06-07. I would say they turned out fine despite missing the playoffs for a year. Do you honestly think a 1st round exit is what is going to make the difference in Callahan or Del Zotto's career?

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03-03-2010, 07:12 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Lundqvist4Vezina View Post
No chance in the playoffs? All respect to your opinion. I can understand where you and other fans are going with it, but anyway, I think differently. Unless we play the Caps or Pens of course. haha

I predict the Rangers to be in 6th or 7th place at the end of this season. So, we just take Montreal's place because I don't think they're going anywhere to begin with unless Cammalleri comes back right now from his injury.

Leave the division leaders how it is and say we're either 6th or 7th. I think we match up to the Devils well and the Sens also. Henrik seems to be on top of his game when he's facing Brodeur and overall we're better than the Sens overall head-to-head (3-1-0).

There's round 2 for us...

And like I said before, it's the playoffs, I'll always be worried out of my mined, but I know my team's completely capable of 5 out of the 7 other teams in the East that'll make the playoffs.

C'mon, let's be fans and back our team up no matter what!
So in other words, if all the stars align and everything goes perfectly for the Rangers, then they might have a good chance at getting to the 2nd round.

Thank you for proving my point.

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03-03-2010, 07:14 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Lundqvist4Vezina View Post
No chance in the playoffs? All respect to your opinion. I can understand where you and other fans are going with it, but anywya, I think differently. Unless we play the Caps or Pens of course. haha

I predict the Rangers to be in 6th or 7th place at the end of this season. So, we just take Montreal's place because I don't think they're going anywhere to begin with unless Cammalleri comes back right now from his injury.

Leave the division leaders how it is and say we're either 6th or 7th. I think we match up to the Devils well and the Sens also. Henrik seems to be on top of his game when he's facing Brodeur and overall we're better than the Sens overall head-to-head (3-1-0).

There's round 2 for us...

And like I said before, it's the playoffs, I'll always be worried out of my mined, but I know my team's completely capable of 5 out of the 7 other teams in the East that'll make the playoffs.

C'mon, let's be fans and back our team up no matter what!
Good for you, dude. I predict that the Rangers will finish in seventh or eighth, and will lose in the first round in six games. Or, better yet, will finish in ninth.

I strongly dislike a large portion of the team's roster, I dislike the way the team plays, and I totally disagree with the direction the team is being taken in. Interestingly enough, all three of those statements have been true for the entire duration of Glen Sather's tenure with the team, and surprise, surprise, under Glen Sather, we've never won a thing.

But I should "be a fan" and back up my team? What am I backing up? More **** being shoved in my face at a higher price?

How about we be fans and ask that our team do what is best for ITSELF, and not continue to totally disrespect us, the fans, by not ripping us off by increasingly larger amounts for a really poor product?

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03-03-2010, 07:25 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
But I should "be a fan" and back up my team? What am I backing up? More **** being shoved in my face at a higher price?

How about we be fans and ask that our team do what is best for ITSELF, and not continue to totally disrespect us, the fans, by not ripping us off by increasingly larger amounts for a really poor product?
Good points. ^^^

Too bad we can't get through Sather as fans, even if they're **** on ice (i.e. Redden). I gotta back 'em up as long as they (they, as in the guy's I think are ****) put that Rangers sweater on whoever it is. They're a part of the team that I root for... That's all I have to say. I just hope for the best and believe for the best.

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03-03-2010, 07:28 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
So in other words, if all the stars align and everything goes perfectly for the Rangers, then they might have a good chance at getting to the 2nd round.

Thank you for proving my point.
Sarcasm? Or straight up honesty from you?

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03-03-2010, 07:30 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Lundqvist4Vezina View Post
Good points. ^^^

Too bad we can't get through Sather as fans, even if they're **** on ice (i.e. Redden). I gotta back 'em up as long as they (they, as in the guy's I think are ****) put that Rangers sweater on whoever it is. They're a part of the team that I root for... That's all I have to say. I just hope for the best and believe for the best.
Well, that's nice and cute and all, but how's that been working out for you so far? Because I've seen post like this, and your previous one, every year for as long as I can remember. I'm tired of them. I'd like to root for a team that can occasionally be good enough so that I don't have to hope for a miracle if I want them to win something.

The funniest part about the decision not to sell is that the two teams the Rangers are the likeliest to face in the first round IF they make the playoffs, the Caps and the Penguins (who will, barring injury, usurp the Atlantic Division lead from the Devils), both improved themselves significantly at this deadline, and the Rangers didn't.

It just doesn't make sense.

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03-03-2010, 07:33 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Well, that's nice and cute and all, but how's that been working out for you so far? Because I've seen post like this, and your previous one, every year for as long as I can remember. I'm tired of them. I'd like to root for a team that can occasionally be good enough so that I don't have to hope for a miracle if I want them to win something.

The funniest part about the decision not to sell is that the two teams the Rangers are the likeliest to face in the first round IF they make the playoffs, the Caps and the Penguins (who will, barring injury, usurp the Atlantic Division lead from the Devils), both improved themselves significantly at this deadline, and the Rangers didn't.

It just doesn't make sense.
Jokinen + Prust >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kotalik + Higgins

We improved ourselves tremendously as well. and it was just a NHL days before the deadline.

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03-03-2010, 07:44 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Jokinen + Prust >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kotalik + Higgins

We improved ourselves tremendously as well. and it was just a NHL days before the deadline.
Tremendously? We improved ourselves slightly. Olli Jokinen is a career loser, and will never, EVER win anything in the playoffs. Dumb players are exposed more than ever in the playoffs.


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03-03-2010, 07:46 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
So...if I never paid my taxes, and now I start paying them some of the time, I'm good? Being patient to some degree is better than not being patient at all, but it's not good enough.
That's a bizarre correlation. You can perform poorly at your job, decently, well, or exemplary. I think Sather has performed better at his job by not trading away youth and has adapted better than quite a few other organizations (Florida, Atlanta, Edmonton, Carolina, etc...) equal to others (Devils, Philly, SJ), and worse than a few (Caps, Pens, Wings, etc...) based solely on what matters - playoff appearances and wins. You, and other Rangers fans, should be a little more objective in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
What am I going to tell those players? "Hey guys, you're being paid millions of dollars to play a game. You'll do what's best for this team for a year or two, and then you might actually get to play on a good team, instead of being the few bright spots on a bad team."
How'd that work out for Kovalchuk? Heatley? Players that don't have to stick around won't - particularly if their teams suck for the sake of draft picks.

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If I'm Glen Sather, I might want to throw in comments like "The only reason you're being asked to bear with us is because I did an embarrassingly awful job." But then again, I'd like to think I have SOME integrity.
In a perfect world, I'd agree with you. And maybe people that faked injuries to collect disability would be honest and executives of AIG would give their bonuses to help save abandoned animals and little fairies would fly by and grant wishes. I'm with you - I wish the world wouldn't suck - but it does. You'll be waiting a long time for that Sather speech.

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The big deal is that in two or three years, we'll probably be in a very similar situation to now. Until you can somehow acquire a couple of very strong young players on entry contracts, you're not going anywhere.
I can't even speculate about next year with the UFA's available, the draft, the people that are moving elsewhere. How can you speculate about 3 years from now?

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Hurt? No. I don't really think that one losing round of playoff hockey is going to be very much help, either. What exactly are they going to learn? How to get toyed with and beaten by a much better team? Most of them already have that experience, and it doesn't seem to be doing very much to improve them.

What WILL hurt the team is not having as many opportunities as possible to draft an impact player. I'd rather have that than what little experience these players are going to acquire.
Last year, they were a goal away from the second round and a game away three games straight. Very little separates teams in the playoffs if you're capable of playing solid defensively. I don't think this is going to be their year, but I do think their defense is young enough to develop into a good defense with maybe one significant signing on the blue line making the difference. I think I feel worst about not getting a Phaneuf at the expense of a pick or two to bolster Staal on our back end.



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There are two differences between the Oilers and the Rangers: injuries and goaltending. That isn't meant as a compliment to our team.
Really? So who is the Oilers' Gaborik?



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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Well, as the consumer, I'd like to put myself in the position of assuming that the person in charge of the team is doing what's best for the future of the team, not the future of his career. Now, obviously, I'm not that naive that I would assume that that's the case. It's just that some people in Sather's position are good enough at their job that they can do what's best for the team and what's best for their career at once. Sather hasn't been able to do that for about 20 years now. In terms of the big picture, Sather's NEVER done what's best for this franchise, and whatever dolt they get to replace him, whether it's Messier or some other token example of nepotism, will be paying for it. And so will season ticket holders.
So, as a consumer, when you buy Rice Krispies are you in on who's running the show at Kellog's?

Seriously, you can evaluate on whatever level you want and whatever you think works best in your mind. It doesn't mean that you have any idea what Sather deals with on a day to day basis, what Dolan's expectations are, what the financial implications are, what other teams offers are, or anything else. I'm certainly not arguing that Sather is a great or even a good GM. I do think, however, that he's done above average since the lockout and if you think you're frustrated by getting bounced in the 1st or the 2nd round of the playoffs every year, imagine how fans of Edmonton, Toronto, Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, etc... must feel. Especially Toronto as its probably the most comparable to the Rangers.



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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
There is no better time to do that than the present. Every day/season that this team delays making the sacrifices necessary will simply be yet another day/season wasted. This team's future is the present. This is the future. 50/50 shots at the playoffs, and first or second round exits. This team will continue to go around in circles, as it has for years now. The ticket prices will keep going up, and every season certain fans will balk at the idea of actually showing some REAL patience, while nothing ever changes.

As long as this is the path the New York Rangers continue to take, it's going to be a very, very long time before this team is any good. It's just a shame that we have a guy on our team that will go down as one of the franchise's greatest players ever, and the prime of his career is just going to be wasted.
I don't know. I guess I'm just not as negative as some of you are. When was the last time the 'Hawks won the cup? The Leafs? The Flyers? The Bruins? These aren't crap franchises.

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03-03-2010, 08:11 PM
  #63
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I'm not sure if this has being fully examined, but the more I look at, the people expecting a return for Jokinen are off-base.

A player the Rangers got for two stiffs, with a cap hit of $5.25 million is suddenly going to bring in a #1 pick, without bringing salary back that disappears at year's end? Can someone point out the playoff with enough cap space to make such a move? And, if you're the Rangers, is it worth losing that cap space? I would have liked to get a #1 for Prospal, so I understand the disappointment there, but, moving Jokinen just never seemed feasible or realistic.

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03-03-2010, 08:12 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
That's a bizarre correlation. You can perform poorly at your job, decently, well, or exemplary. I think Sather has performed better at his job by not trading away youth and has adapted better than quite a few other organizations (Florida, Atlanta, Edmonton, Carolina, etc...) equal to others (Devils, Philly, SJ), and worse than a few (Caps, Pens, Wings, etc...) based solely on what matters - playoff appearances and wins. You, and other Rangers fans, should be a little more objective in this regard.
How the hell has he performed better than Carolina? They won the cup in 2005-2006 and went to the ECF last year. What are you even talking about? And no, we're not equal New Jersey or Philadelphia.


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How'd that work out for Kovalchuk? Heatley? Players that don't have to stick around won't - particularly if their teams suck for the sake of draft picks.
Kovalchuk dealt with a decade of sucking. With the core of players both on the team and in the prospect pool currently we wouldn't have to rot for 10 years to get back to being a competitive team. See the 2006-2007 Flyers. Heatley is a horrible example because he has a horrible attitude. And do you honestly think Lundqvist is satisfied with squeeking into the playoffs every year only to get knocked out in 1 or 2 rounds? What's to say he doesn't decide he's had enough?


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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I can't even speculate about next year with the UFA's available, the draft, the people that are moving elsewhere. How can you speculate about 3 years from now?
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
-Albert Einstein


The past few years Sather's strategy has gotten us nowhere but the position we're in right now. What the hell makes you think that 3 years from now the direction he's gone is going to lead to different results? It doesn't matter what UFA's are available or who is moved elsewhere. As long as Sather's principles stay in place then we'll be in the same position, whether he runs with this plan for 1 year or 100.





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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Last year, they were a goal away from the second round and a game away three games straight. Very little separates teams in the playoffs if you're capable of playing solid defensively. I don't think this is going to be their year, but I do think their defense is young enough to develop into a good defense with maybe one significant signing on the blue line making the difference. I think I feel worst about not getting a Phaneuf at the expense of a pick or two to bolster Staal on our back end.
And last year they were a few shootout losses away from missing the playoffs altogether. The only thing that kept us in that series was Lundqvist standing on his head. It's not surprising that he couldn't do it every game, and it's not surprising that the games he wasn't able to the Rangers lost. No matter how good your goalie is you can not expect him to win the playoffs for you. Dominek Hasek put up the greatest single season/playoffs performance in the history of the NHL in 98-99 and even then he could win the Sabres a Cup. The Rangers defense definitely could develop into a good defense; in the future. That has no implications on this year. A significant signing on the blueline in the future also has no implications on this year. The Rangers could have traded Jokinen and Prospal and that wouldn't have affected our ability to develop our defense or sign a defenseman in the future.

And why would the Flames trade Phaneuf for draft picks? They want to win this year.





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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Really? So who is the Oilers' Gaborik?
The fact that a single forward whose groin could explode at any moment is what seperates us from being comparable to a lottery team is all the evidence you should need to understand that the current direction the team is heading is completely misguided.





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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
So, as a consumer, when you buy Rice Krispies are you in on who's running the show at Kellog's?

Seriously, you can evaluate on whatever level you want and whatever you think works best in your mind. It doesn't mean that you have any idea what Sather deals with on a day to day basis, what Dolan's expectations are, what the financial implications are, what other teams offers are, or anything else. I'm certainly not arguing that Sather is a great or even a good GM. I do think, however, that he's done above average since the lockout and if you think you're frustrated by getting bounced in the 1st or the 2nd round of the playoffs every year, imagine how fans of Edmonton, Toronto, Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, etc... must feel. Especially Toronto as its probably the most comparable to the Rangers.





I don't know. I guess I'm just not as negative as some of you are. When was the last time the 'Hawks won the cup? The Leafs? The Flyers? The Bruins? These aren't crap franchises.
So because there are a handful of teams worse off than the Rangers we should be satisfied? The goal isn't to avoid being in the company Thrashers, Oilers, and Panthers. The goal is to achieve being in the company of the Red Wings and Penguins. If you're satisfied with Sather doing "a better job than a select few teams" then more power to you. All I know is that if the Rangers manage to even make the playoffs and get knocked out of the first or second round, Sam Rosen won't end the broadcast with, "and this one will last a lifetime!"

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03-03-2010, 08:20 PM
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This.

Coupled with the fact that it was clearly a seller's market, we could have gotten good value back for them. Prospal and Jokinen would have been the 2 best players available today.
A-FRIGGIN-MEN


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03-03-2010, 08:21 PM
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That's a bizarre correlation. You can perform poorly at your job, decently, well, or exemplary. I think Sather has performed better at his job by not trading away youth and has adapted better than quite a few other organizations (Florida, Atlanta, Edmonton, Carolina, etc...) equal to others (Devils, Philly, SJ), and worse than a few (Caps, Pens, Wings, etc...) based solely on what matters - playoff appearances and wins. You, and other Rangers fans, should be a little more objective in this regard.
The only franchises that this team has adapted better than are small-market teams that face far bigger issues than this team does, and all of those teams have been really, really poorly managed.

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How'd that work out for Kovalchuk? Heatley? Players that don't have to stick around won't - particularly if their teams suck for the sake of draft picks.
Both of those are very poor examples. Kovalchuk didn't want to play in Atlanta for a team that is constantly in danger of being relocated. I highly, highly doubt that a rebuilding year, or even two, would drive most players away from this team, especially our best players. This isn't Atlanta, this is New York City. Heatley wanted out because Cory Clouston altered his role with the team, and Heatley was a crybaby about it. Wasn't too big of a problem for the Sens, but then again, they've run a competent franchise so they can afford to lose a guy like Heatley.

And again, I think it's a lot more of an insult to the players to continue going forward with this plan, that obviously is a road to nowhere. As a player, I would find this strategy to be a lot more frustrating.

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In a perfect world, I'd agree with you. And maybe people that faked injuries to collect disability would be honest and executives of AIG would give their bonuses to help save abandoned animals and little fairies would fly by and grant wishes. I'm with you - I wish the world wouldn't suck - but it does. You'll be waiting a long time for that Sather speech.
You don't have to worry, I'm not holding my breath. The comment was just meant as a dig at Sather. But then again, some people in the sports business step down when they aren't getting the job done. This guy has been doing a ****** job for several decades, and he still won't step aside.

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I can't even speculate about next year with the UFA's available, the draft, the people that are moving elsewhere. How can you speculate about 3 years from now?
All I have to go on is experience and my judgment, which, when it comes to hockey, has an excellent track record. I don't know about you, but I form an opinion about every move, every pick, every player, and I form an opinion about the situation in general. In the time I've been seriously following this team, and this sport, my predictions have rarely been incorrect. More often than not, prospects tend to turn out as I project them to, just as trades or roster moves do.

Obviously, you don't have to believe me. The only evidence of my track record is the stuff I post here over the last few years or the message board I posted on prior to becoming a regular reader/poster here. Those judgments stand for themselves. I'm not trying to come across like a braggart, I'm just trying to show why I'm confident in my opinion.

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Last year, they were a goal away from the second round and a game away three games straight. Very little separates teams in the playoffs if you're capable of playing solid defensively. I don't think this is going to be their year, but I do think their defense is young enough to develop into a good defense with maybe one significant signing on the blue line making the difference. I think I feel worst about not getting a Phaneuf at the expense of a pick or two to bolster Staal on our back end.
Last year, they were out played in 6 of the 7 games in that series, and only made it to seven games because of Lundqvist. And they still lost. Not to mention that for the majority of the series, the Capitals effort level was terrible. I also think trading for Phaneuf would have been a colossal error.


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Really? So who is the Oilers' Gaborik?
Ales Hemsky is definitely no Gaborik, you've got me there. But he is out for the season with a serious injury, and he is that team's best player. And while they may not have a Gaborik, on paper, their defense is stronger than ours. Too bad it's been decimated by injuries as well.

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Seriously, you can evaluate on whatever level you want and whatever you think works best in your mind. It doesn't mean that you have any idea what Sather deals with on a day to day basis, what Dolan's expectations are, what the financial implications are, what other teams offers are, or anything else. I'm certainly not arguing that Sather is a great or even a good GM. I do think, however, that he's done above average since the lockout and if you think you're frustrated by getting bounced in the 1st or the 2nd round of the playoffs every year, imagine how fans of Edmonton, Toronto, Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, etc... must feel. Especially Toronto as its probably the most comparable to the Rangers.
I don't need to know what Sather deals with. All I need to do is look around the rest of the league. And I'm not a fan of any of those teams. If I was a fan, my expectations would be different. This is not a small-market team that can't spend up to the cap. This team doesn't worry about the possibility of relocation, and while every team may be on a "level ground" in terms of the salary cap, there are plenty of other areas of team operations where the Rangers have the resources available that very few other teams do.

You know what I feel is the best run team in the NHL? The Nashville Predators. For the circumstances that he has to work with, David Poile is the best GM in this league. The expectations are different because the situation is different.

The only team in that group that doesn't fall into that small-market description is Toronto, and I feel like know exactly how their fans feel. They're in the same boat as us, and I think they're going to be in boatload of trouble for a long time, too. I think some of the moves Burke has made are shrewd, but others are mindboggling. Like the Kessel trade, or the Komisarek contract.

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I don't know. I guess I'm just not as negative as some of you are. When was the last time the 'Hawks won the cup? The Leafs? The Flyers? The Bruins? These aren't crap franchises.
Well, at least the Flyers tend to be contenders. But I would argue that, by and large, those teams are pretty pathetic. Right up there with the Rangers. But the Hawks and the Bruins get what's going on in this league, and their future is a lot brighter than ours.

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03-03-2010, 08:25 PM
  #67
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I'm not sure if this has being fully examined, but the more I look at, the people expecting a return for Jokinen are off-base.

A player the Rangers got for two stiffs, with a cap hit of $5.25 million is suddenly going to bring in a #1 pick, without bringing salary back that disappears at year's end? Can someone point out the playoff with enough cap space to make such a move? And, if you're the Rangers, is it worth losing that cap space? I would have liked to get a #1 for Prospal, so I understand the disappointment there, but, moving Jokinen just never seemed feasible or realistic.
If Eric Belanger got a second, either Jokinen or Prospal could have gotten a second. I don't think many people here are saying we could have had a first, but stocking up on seconds isn't something to dismiss. It's a nice luxury to have 2-3 2nd round picks.

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03-03-2010, 08:32 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
If Eric Belanger got a second, either Jokinen or Prospal could have gotten a second. I don't think many people here are saying we could have had a first, but stocking up on seconds isn't something to dismiss. It's a nice luxury to have 2-3 2nd round picks.
Belanger doesn't carry a $5.25 million cap hit. So again, which playoff-bound team has the cap space to bring in Jokinen, while giving up only a 2nd round pick in return? And, if I'm the Rangers, I'm not content with bring back salary that extends beyond this year. I don't think a deal like that was there to be made.

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03-03-2010, 08:38 PM
  #69
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Belanger doesn't carry a $5.25 million cap hit. So again, which playoff-bound team has the cap space to bring in Jokinen, while giving up only a 2nd round pick in return? And, if I'm the Rangers, I'm not content with bring back salary that extends beyond this year. I don't think a deal like that was there to be made.
I disagree. Not every team is pressed up against the cap. I believe that there are teams with the cap space that would have been willing to move a second round pick for Jokinen, but I can't imagine that Sather would have even entertained the option of selling.

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03-03-2010, 08:39 PM
  #70
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How the hell has he performed better than Carolina? They won the cup in 2005-2006 and went to the ECF last year. What are you even talking about? And no, we're not equal New Jersey or Philadelphia.
Sorry, am @ work between customers. Carolina = Chicago.

How the hell is Philly or the Devils better than us since the lockout? NJ same playoff wins, same playoff results over the past four years and the Flyers haven't even been in the playoffs four consecutive years like we have. Chicago is emerging and may prove to be better after this year. But the previous four are roughly equal. Remember, I said "what matters" = playoffs.

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Kovalchuk dealt with a decade of sucking. With the core of players both on the team and in the prospect pool currently we wouldn't have to rot for 10 years to get back to being a competitive team. See the 2006-2007 Flyers. Heatley is a horrible example because he has a horrible attitude. And do you honestly think Lundqvist is satisfied with squeeking into the playoffs every year only to get knocked out in 1 or 2 rounds? What's to say he doesn't decide he's had enough?
Maybe he will. Maybe he'll pull a Hasek. You think draft picks,rebuilding, and a "hey we'll be good in a few years" pep talk are the method to get him to stay?


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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
-Albert Einstein


The past few years Sather's strategy has gotten us nowhere but the position we're in right now. What the hell makes you think that 3 years from now the direction he's gone is going to lead to different results? It doesn't matter what UFA's are available or who is moved elsewhere. As long as Sather's principles stay in place then we'll be in the same position, whether he runs with this plan for 1 year or 100.
The only other Eastern Conference team to make the playoffs every year since the lockout - the Devils. Pittsburgh and Carolina have won the cup and every other team hasn't.

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And last year they were a few shootout losses away from missing the playoffs altogether. The only thing that kept us in that series was Lundqvist standing on his head. It's not surprising that he couldn't do it every game, and it's not surprising that the games he wasn't able to the Rangers lost. No matter how good your goalie is you can not expect him to win the playoffs for you. Dominek Hasek put up the greatest single season/playoffs performance in the history of the NHL in 98-99 and even then he could win the Sabres a Cup. The Rangers defense definitely could develop into a good defense; in the future. That has no implications on this year. A significant signing on the blueline in the future also has no implications on this year. The Rangers could have traded Jokinen and Prospal and that wouldn't have affected our ability to develop our defense or sign a defenseman in the future.
It's simply unrealistic. Period. Millions of dollars. Millions of fans. Millions of reasons to make the playoffs. And don't throw shootout numbers around - it's part of the NHL and part of the reason we qualified.

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And why would the Flames trade Phaneuf for draft picks? They want to win this year.
They have a bizarre way of going about that if they're turning their franchise completely on its head in February and jettisoning a large portion of the team.


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The fact that a single forward whose groin could explode at any moment is what seperates us from being comparable to a lottery team is all the evidence you should need to understand that the current direction the team is heading is completely misguided.
Take away any teams "Gaborik" and you could say the same thing to a degree. Are the Caps going to the finals without Ovechkin? How are the Pens without Crosby - particularly this year? How are the Rangers doing in the games he's missed, btw? Has his groin even been an issue this year beyond the couple of games he's missed early on? Every Ranger fan has to be ecstatic with his performance so far.


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So because there are a handful of teams worse off than the Rangers we should be satisfied? The goal isn't to avoid being in the company Thrashers, Oilers, and Panthers. The goal is to achieve being in the company of the Red Wings and Penguins. If you're satisfied with Sather doing "a better job than a select few teams" then more power to you. All I know is that if the Rangers manage to even make the playoffs and get knocked out of the first or second round, Sam Rosen won't end the broadcast with, "and this one will last a lifetime!"
Handful? LOL. No. Many. Cupless: Hawks 50+ years. Leafs 40+ years. Flyers 30+ Years. Bruins 30+ years. Islanders 25+ years. Calgary 30+ years. Oilers 25+ years. Vancouver Never. Thrashers/Panthers/Yotes/etc... I think some of you have lost perspective about how difficult this really is.

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03-03-2010, 08:49 PM
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I disagree. Not every team is pressed up against the cap. I believe that there are teams with the cap space that would have been willing to move a second round pick for Jokinen, but I can't imagine that Sather would have even entertained the option of selling.

Sorry, Sting, but, I'm having a hard time finding a team with the combination of cap space and need for a top six center that you claim would make such a deal.

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03-03-2010, 08:54 PM
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Sorry, Sting, but, I'm having a hard time finding a team with the combination of cap space and need for a top six center that you claim would make such a deal.
I'm too lazy to do the math, haha. What's his pro-rated cap hit?

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03-03-2010, 08:56 PM
  #73
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The only franchises that this team has adapted better than are small-market teams that face far bigger issues than this team does, and all of those teams have been really, really poorly managed.
Like Toronto?

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Both of those are very poor examples. Kovalchuk didn't want to play in Atlanta for a team that is constantly in danger of being relocated. I highly, highly doubt that a rebuilding year, or even two, would drive most players away from this team, especially our best players. This isn't Atlanta, this is New York City. Heatley wanted out because Cory Clouston altered his role with the team, and Heatley was a crybaby about it. Wasn't too big of a problem for the Sens, but then again, they've run a competent franchise so they can afford to lose a guy like Heatley.
Why are they poor examples? Lundqvist is in the same salary range and you're asking him (I think) to wait until we build via the draft and he's 30-31-32 or whatever. Why wouldn't he feel the same way about rebuilding and not making the playoffs for the sake of playing for an even worse team?

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And again, I think it's a lot more of an insult to the players to continue going forward with this plan, that obviously is a road to nowhere. As a player, I would find this strategy to be a lot more frustrating.
As a player, you have 29 other options in a reasonable amount of time.


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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
All I have to go on is experience and my judgment, which, when it comes to hockey, has an excellent track record. I don't know about you, but I form an opinion about every move, every pick, every player, and I form an opinion about the situation in general. In the time I've been seriously following this team, and this sport, my predictions have rarely been incorrect. More often than not, prospects tend to turn out as I project them to, just as trades or roster moves do.
I'll follow that more closely. Truthfully, I haven't but am interested. Not being sarcastic.

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Obviously, you don't have to believe me. The only evidence of my track record is the stuff I post here over the last few years or the message board I posted on prior to becoming a regular reader/poster here. Those judgments stand for themselves. I'm not trying to come across like a braggart, I'm just trying to show why I'm confident in my opinion.
I understand your opinion. Just don't think it's realistic.



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Last year, they were out played in 6 of the 7 games in that series, and only made it to seven games because of Lundqvist. And they still lost. Not to mention that for the majority of the series, the Capitals effort level was terrible. I also think trading for Phaneuf would have been a colossal error.
Perhaps. It depends on what they would've given up. Phaneuf is awfully young to have given up on, though, particularly at his position.

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Ales Hemsky is definitely no Gaborik, you've got me there. But he is out for the season with a serious injury, and he is that team's best player. And while they may not have a Gaborik, on paper, their defense is stronger than ours. Too bad it's been decimated by injuries as well.
The amount of one goal games they've lost, I bet, is staggering. I haven't looked it up, though, just judging on what I've watched.

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I don't need to know what Sather deals with. All I need to do is look around the rest of the league. And I'm not a fan of any of those teams. If I was a fan, my expectations would be different. This is not a small-market team that can't spend up to the cap. This team doesn't worry about the possibility of relocation, and while every team may be on a "level ground" in terms of the salary cap, there are plenty of other areas of team operations where the Rangers have the resources available that very few other teams do.
I can't argue about the resources - but his results have been as good as many, if not most, since the lockout based on consistency. Large market teams can, and usually are, harder to run than smaller market teams IMHO. Teams like Nashville are the exception (and I agree with your assessment about the Preds being run the best).



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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Well, at least the Flyers tend to be contenders. But I would argue that, by and large, those teams are pretty pathetic. Right up there with the Rangers. But the Hawks and the Bruins get what's going on in this league, and their future is a lot brighter than ours.
It shouldn't take 30 or 40 years to figure out that you really need to build a team from your own crease out. They haven't figured that out to this day. Lindbergh might've been the exception, but we'll never know.

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03-03-2010, 08:56 PM
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I'm out for the night, btw, 13.5 hr. day here at work. No can debate no more.

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03-03-2010, 09:02 PM
  #75
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I realize that were not as good as washington, pitt etc but the team is better than what it was and id rather make the playoffs then finish 9th or tenth and still not have a great first round pick. Good moves by not trading away assets to get rentals. If you trade prospal and jokinen then you have absolutely no chance at making the playoffs. If hank is on his game and the team is playing like it can then we can make some noise. Look at the oilers a few years ago. Still would like to have seen something done today other then the worthless 2 trades.

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