HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Notices

offseason predictions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-05-2010, 05:38 PM
  #326
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 31,331
vCash: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcWoo View Post
That's very, very harsh.

From Pollack's blog today:

Ryane Clowe on the return of Joe Thornton:
“He logs a lot of minutes up front. Our power play is obviously stronger with him out there, faceoffs are also strong. There’s a lot of elements besides the obvious he brings. And it’s a big factor for them trying to shut him down.”

Patrick Marleau on the return of Joe Thornton
: “It’s huge. He plays a lot of minutes and he’s a great player. You can see how he creates so much room out there.”


I'm inclined to agree with the two pro-hockey players.
One pro hockey player on this team thought we had enough talent to carry the team during nights while most of the team was coasting. Hockey players are not always the best analyzers of other players and play itself. If they were, the same problems that tend to creep up with this team or any team for that matter would be resolved. In most situations, Joe Thornton is good in the faceoff circle. But in a defensive situation or with the game on the line, I'm not nearly confident in him getting it done when the other guy digs in and JT is generally over the top trying to get a clean win with a stick swipe or just trying to be first to the puck. A lot of my problem with JT in this regard is simply him being unwilling to tie up the stick and battle for it. He's inclined to either win it cleanly or lose it cleanly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
....
Down your responses...Marleau wins draws...it's true. It's also true that his speed opens up ice for his linemates. I don't know what games you're watching or if you're just focused solely on Joe Thornton, but it happens.

You're right that he's got a good winning percentage but that takes every single draw. I've watched every single game that JT has played here and in the post-season he has a humongous struggle winning draws when it gets down to crunch time.

With regards to Patty, you're just flat out wrong. He's not one of those guys. He was one of those guys under RW's tenure but isn't anymore. Patty caught RW's venom because he was captain more so than anything else. Since RW's dismissal, it's been Marleau stepping up and JT regressing in this regard.

As for Murray, you're so caught up in believing that I'm putting him down that you completely ignore the point. It is not Murray's fault that they're asking too much of him. That's DW's fault. It is quite laughable that you say Rob Blake is a 5th to 7th guy but Murray isn't even though statistically, Rob Blake is better in every way except for hits. And the guys like Huskins, Wallin, Demers, and Leach are largely irrelevant to whether or not Murray succeeds or fails at his role. You can argue that Blake has a sort of impact on it as a #3 when he sucks but the way that they've been using the guys, he hasn't really either because Boyle and Vlasic have been picking up the slack and not Murray.

Murray is a very competent defenseman when he's used properly. Pairing him with Dan Boyle is not using him properly. Boyle's a rover and occasionally creates odd-man rushes against. This is something Murray is simply not that good at. He's also not durable enough to ask him to take on extra minutes with any sort of reliance.

But again, it doesn't come down to Murray. But to absolve Murray like he isn't part of the problem is being ignorant. He very much is part of the problem the way he is being used.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2010, 05:39 PM
  #327
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
thats a completely ridiculous argument and misses the point completely
I wouldn't be quite as harsh, but . . .

Production is relative to the team. The playoff performers are the guys with no dropoff. Forsberg is a superhero for actually having a playoff uptick relative to regular season. I don't give excuses to any of the players, including Patty. He isn't a playoff stud but neither is he a dud. JT's playoffs are very average. About a 1/3 dropoff for all top line players. But if you want to win, you need a stud or two. It doesn't have to be JT or Patty although there were 2 years where Patty was a stud, the first with JT and 03-04. Every team that gets to the playoffs gets production from somewhere. For some teams that production is spread and if near the top of one of those more spread out teams, Patty's production is nearly in line. JT's is not. Period. No excuses about others failing. The reason why the numbers help the definition is that there really isn't a dropoff in playoff scoring. What there is is a shift to more scoring from the lower lines while the elite lines fall off a bit. When an elite line produces on par with regular season or better, that is when a team wins.

The other issue is that you want the top guys to take over games. The eyeball issue on JT is that he does play consistently but rarely dominates. He is paid at level where success should be defined as taking over two games per series. His production is relatively even; he doesn't take over games. Patty was taking over games in the prescribed manner, but not at a clip of two per series. The other games need to be won elsewhere in the lineup. Look back at the Calgary series to see an example of different players dominating different games in that series win.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2010, 05:41 PM
  #328
Obsessed Sharks Fan
Registered User
 
Obsessed Sharks Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Mateo
Country: United States
Posts: 1,213
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Obsessed Sharks Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
My problem with JT is two fold.

1) He's got a passive personality, not the kind of leader you need. Whether he has the C or not, he's the leader of this team.

2) JT is so good at what he does that having him on your team almost demands you play to his style. I don't think JT is capable of not slowing the game down. I think that style is too easy to disrupt and defends against. This is why we have such a poor record int he playoffs and against playoff teams. Good teams take advantage of the system we are forced to play because JT (being effective) demands it.

He's an incredibly skilled player, and a super nice guy. I hate to see him go, but I honestly thing at this point he is the elephant in the room. He very likely isn't going anywhere, until JT stop being a cash cow for the ownership, he stays.
i flipping hate having to agree with you here. I'm certainly willing to see one more playoff season, but I'll just be sighing and shaking my head if it's same ol' same ol'.

He promised us he'd shoot more. Gimme a break.

I don't think he's too nice of a guy to be a leader though. I mean jeez, he gets as intense as anybody out on the ice. When a call is missed and stuff after he is high sticked -- man he looks and sounds like a real hockey player. So I basically just agree on his playing style.

Last night's game he was in 1 on 1 on a guy and didn't even have an ounce of natural inkling to try to use his size and speed to at least take the outside. of course, he circles around and can't find someone to bail him out. sick of it.

and man was i not too impressed with him in the red and white playing on the biggest stage possible.

edit: man what was up in boston. he only had 40ish more SOG but 28 more goals!
doesn't Wilson always say "they are entering their prime" regarding Patty and Jumbo? I guess 1 / 2 aint bad.

Obsessed Sharks Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2010, 05:49 PM
  #329
19sharks19
Registered User
 
19sharks19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: T.O. to S.J. & back
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,873
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
One pro hockey player on this team thought we had enough talent to carry the team during nights while most of the team was coasting. Hockey players are not always the best analyzers of other players and play itself. If they were, the same problems that tend to creep up with this team or any team for that matter would be resolved. In most situations, Joe Thornton is good in the faceoff circle. But in a defensive situation or with the game on the line, I'm not nearly confident in him getting it done when the other guy digs in and JT is generally over the top trying to get a clean win with a stick swipe or just trying to be first to the puck. A lot of my problem with JT in this regard is simply him being unwilling to tie up the stick and battle for it. He's inclined to either win it cleanly or lose it cleanly.
=That actually sounds a lot like Patty and Pavs, playoffs more so.

Down your responses...Marleau wins draws...it's true. It's also true that his speed opens up ice for his linemates. I don't know what games you're watching or if you're just focused solely on Joe Thornton, but it happens.
=The same games in which Murray had some really really solid performances (eg, his domination over Igy. against the flames this season) and you continued to call him out.

You're right that he's got a good winning percentage but that takes every single draw. I've watched every single game that JT has played here and in the post-season he has a humongous struggle winning draws when it gets down to crunch time.

With regards to Patty, you're just flat out wrong. He's not one of those guys. He was one of those guys under RW's tenure but isn't anymore. Patty caught RW's venom because he was captain more so than anything else. Since RW's dismissal, it's been Marleau stepping up and JT regressing in this regard.

As for Murray, you're so caught up in believing that I'm putting him down that you completely ignore the point. It is not Murray's fault that they're asking too much of him. That's DW's fault. It is quite laughable that you say Rob Blake is a 5th to 7th guy but Murray isn't even though statistically, Rob Blake is better in every way except for hits. And the guys like Huskins, Wallin, Demers, and Leach are largely irrelevant to whether or not Murray succeeds or fails at his role. You can argue that Blake has a sort of impact on it as a #3 when he sucks but the way that they've been using the guys, he hasn't really either because Boyle and Vlasic have been picking up the slack and not Murray.

Murray is a very competent defenseman when he's used properly. Pairing him with Dan Boyle is not using him properly. Boyle's a rover and occasionally creates odd-man rushes against. This is something Murray is simply not that good at. He's also not durable enough to ask him to take on extra minutes with any sort of reliance.
=One point I agree with you on this is he shouldn't be paired with Boyle. More so with the likes of Vlasic, another solid defensive D man.

But again, it doesn't come down to Murray. But to absolve Murray like he isn't part of the problem is being ignorant. He very much is part of the problem the way he is being used.
=Good point, PART of the teams problem, NOT the major problem on the D as you've hinted at many a time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I wouldn't be quite as harsh, but . . .

Production is relative to the team. The playoff performers are the guys with no dropoff. Forsberg is a superhero for actually having a playoff uptick relative to regular season. I don't give excuses to any of the players, including Patty. He isn't a playoff stud but neither is he a dud. JT's playoffs are very average. About a 1/3 dropoff for all top line players. But if you want to win, you need a stud or two. It doesn't have to be JT or Patty although there were 2 years where Patty was a stud, the first with JT and 03-04. Every team that gets to the playoffs gets production from somewhere. For some teams that production is spread and if near the top of one of those more spread out teams, Patty's production is nearly in line. JT's is not. Period. No excuses about others failing. The reason why the numbers help the definition is that there really isn't a dropoff in playoff scoring. What there is is a shift to more scoring from the lower lines while the elite lines fall off a bit. When an elite line produces on par with regular season or better, that is when a team wins.

The other issue is that you want the top guys to take over games. The eyeball issue on JT is that he does play consistently but rarely dominates. He is paid at level where success should be defined as taking over two games per series. His production is relatively even; he doesn't take over games. Patty was taking over games in the prescribed manner, but not at a clip of two per series. The other games need to be won elsewhere in the lineup. Look back at the Calgary series to see an example of different players dominating different games in that series win.
Just a little off topic, how would you look at Iginla for the Flames? How would you rate / view him as the team's top player and what they should do with him, so soon after being a major contender?

19sharks19 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2010, 05:56 PM
  #330
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 31,331
vCash: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Just a little off topic, how would you look at Iginla for the Flames? How would you rate / view him as the team's top player and what they should do with him, so soon after being a major contender?
You may think it sounds like Patty and Pavs but it doesn't. You're wrong here.

As for Murray, his position and role on the team that he's trying to fill is a major part of the success of the blue line as a whole. The reason why his position is something I stress more than even Blake is because Blake is a proven commodity. While Blake has sucked a good portion of the season, he still has shown the capability of being leaned on. Murray has no such capability and having four guys that can do it is crucial.

If in this off-season, we replaced Blake with Demers and rolled in with something like Boyle, Vlasic, Murray, Demers, Huskins, and Wallin, I'd question both Murray and Demers equally in this regard. I question Blake less because he's a veteran and it isn't the first time in his career he's coasted through a season.

As for Iginla, he's overrated as a leader but he hasn't had much help either.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2010, 06:14 PM
  #331
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Just a little off topic, how would you look at Iginla for the Flames? How would you rate / view him as the team's top player and what they should do with him, so soon after being a major contender?
Iginla had his big year in 03-04. Since then, he is somewhere around Marleau status. He drops, but it isn't that big. He does take over games. They are both "inconsistent". Everyone gets upset about game to game consistency, but the reality is that all players are somewhat inconsistent in the playoffs. It is because coaches adjust. Does the player have enough in the repertoire to adjust to the adjustments? My take is Calgary should keep Iggy, but they should take a long hard look at Sutter who needs a boxcar full of Depends in terms of what he has done to the team.

The dropoff in top line scoring is also coaching. They are a lot more attentive to top line matchups. One guy who is up there on playoffs is Alfredsson. Brad Richards. Eric Staal. Malkin. Crosby. All of these guys out produce Marleau relative to reg. season but not by all that much. They blow JT out of the water. And Staal and Richards (remember Richards wasn't on Vinnie's line) weren't complaining about lack of support and their lesser guys certainly weren't as appealing as the Sharks. Alfredsson, Richards and Staal have more normalized numbers relative to Marleau. Part of JT's numbers are his style and the way he is used. There are very few Crosby's out there and JT is not it. The last big dominant center along JT's line to win it all was Lemieux and JT isn't close to Mario. Mario included shooting with his game.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2010, 06:56 PM
  #332
matt trick
Registered User
 
matt trick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 7,761
vCash: 500
Regarding big centers, Getzlaf led all Ducks in scoring during their cup run. He also went well over PPG last year. Staal and Malkin are also dominant come playoff time, but Malkin is a very different big center than Thornton.

matt trick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2010, 07:11 PM
  #333
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt trick View Post
Regarding big centers, Getzlaf led all Ducks in scoring during their cup run. He also went well over PPG last year. Staal and Malkin are also dominant come playoff time, but Malkin is a very different big center than Thornton.
I have Getzlaf in the Thornton mold and he does produce according to the template I gave. Sorry, forgot to include him. And yes, Staal and Malkin are different. Richards is probably closer as he is pass-first, but he isn't stationary. What gets me is the thing about big centers as the be all and end all. Datsyuk sure isn't big. And there are big centers who never won it all despite their dominance (eg Sundin and Lindros).

My take is also that the Ducks will have problems going forward if they use Getzlaf as their feature guy. He won when he was being challenged by the second line.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2010, 07:21 PM
  #334
matt trick
Registered User
 
matt trick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 7,761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I have Getzlaf in the Thornton mold and he does produce according to the template I gave. Sorry, forgot to include him. And yes, Staal and Malkin are different. Richards is probably closer as he is pass-first, but he isn't stationary. What gets me is the thing about big centers as the be all and end all. Datsyuk sure isn't big. And there are big centers who never won it all despite their dominance (eg Sundin and Lindros).

My take is also that the Ducks will have problems going forward if they use Getzlaf as their feature guy. He won when he was being challenged by the second line.
It isn't Getzlaf I'd be worried about. Nor Perry or Ryan. It is the fact they are going for Pronger, Niedermayer, and Beauchmein to Visnovsky, Wiznewski, and Sbisa, not to mention the loss of Allaire.

matt trick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2010, 08:37 PM
  #335
Gene Parmesan
Ball-So-Hard-U
 
Gene Parmesan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 29,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I have Getzlaf in the Thornton mold and he does produce according to the template I gave. Sorry, forgot to include him. And yes, Staal and Malkin are different. Richards is probably closer as he is pass-first, but he isn't stationary. What gets me is the thing about big centers as the be all and end all. Datsyuk sure isn't big. And there are big centers who never won it all despite their dominance (eg Sundin and Lindros).

My take is also that the Ducks will have problems going forward if they use Getzlaf as their feature guy. He won when he was being challenged by the second line.
I like Ryan Getzlaf but sometimes he leaves a lot to be desired, I watched Duck games this year to watch him play and was kind of dissapointed to be honest. So I agree with you about the Ducks going forward.

Gene Parmesan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2010, 10:48 PM
  #336
Zip15
Registered User
 
Zip15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 16,954
vCash: 50
What would the Sharks want from the Sabres for Clowe? Buffalo needs a player like Clowe in their top-6. Buffalo has a lot of small, talented players and with Ennis a lock for next year's roster and Gerbe competing for a spot, Buffalo may be fielding the lollipop guild. Hence, the need for Clowed. He'd also mentor fellow Newfoundlander Luke Adam.

Stafford is definitely in play. If you're interested in defensemen, Sekera and Butler could be moved. Both are young, have lots of talent and top-4 potential, but are struggling with confidence right now.

Zip15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-08-2010, 10:54 PM
  #337
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 31,331
vCash: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
What would the Sharks want from the Sabres for Clowe? Buffalo needs a player like Clowe in their top-6. Buffalo has a lot of small, talented players and with Ennis a lock for next year's roster and Gerbe competing for a spot, Buffalo may be fielding the lollipop guild. Hence, the need for Clowed. He'd also mentor fellow Newfoundlander Luke Adam.

Stafford is definitely in play. If you're interested in defensemen, Sekera and Butler could be moved. Both are young, have lots of talent and top-4 potential, but are struggling with confidence right now.
Definitely would have to start with Butler but I think this would be more of a two for two deal to make it work. Something like Stafford and Butler for Clowe, Huskins, and a pick.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 12:55 AM
  #338
tarlinian
Registered User
 
tarlinian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pasadena, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,162
vCash: 500
Butler+2nd (the highest one you've got) for Clowe+Huskins would be reasonable.

tarlinian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:29 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.