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Old
03-05-2010, 03:09 PM
  #76
TheDanceOfMaternity
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I am in the blow everything up camp. However, I don't see us crappy enough to rebuild well or good enough to make the playoffs if that happens.

I just can't imagine a team with Heatley, Setoguchi, Pavelski and NOT Thornton, Nabokov or Marleau, so I am going to assume we do nothing.

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03-05-2010, 03:19 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by TheDanceOfMaternity View Post
I am in the blow everything up camp. However, I don't see us crappy enough to rebuild well or good enough to make the playoffs if that happens.

I just can't imagine a team with Heatley, Setoguchi, Pavelski and NOT Thornton, Nabokov or Marleau, so I am going to assume we do nothing.
Thornton to Edmonton. Well throw Clowe in there too.

Thornton, Clowe

for

Hemsky
Cogs

Gagner

and a first or a second or Penner.

If Heatley can get three players from Edmonton/San Jose. Thornton can get four to five\ Plus Clowe.

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Old
03-05-2010, 03:34 PM
  #78
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Depends how our playoffs go. If Thornton doesn't turn it up in the playoffs, i think we should think about moving him. We got him a proven sniper now, so let's see how he if he can make something happen.

Don't think this is a popular thing, but Thornton sure didn't impress during the Olympics.

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Old
03-05-2010, 03:48 PM
  #79
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Thornton didn't impress me during the olympics. And I think his performance in the Olympics will be like in the Playoffs.

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Old
03-05-2010, 04:43 PM
  #80
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Wouldn't it be funny? if we do trade Thornton, and we pick up Savard to replace Thornton. THat would be the second time in his career that he would have replaced Thornton.

I would like to have Halak. Halak impressed me in the tournament. Wouldn't it be nice to have Boyle\ Volchenkov or Hamhuis.

And watching Huskins skate, is absoutely horrible. He has to be the slowest skater in the Nhl. We should get rid of Huskins. I don't know the rest of the free agents at the end of the year.
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Thornton didn't impress me during the olympics. And I think his performance in the Olympics will be like in the Playoffs.
But, with that kind of thinking, I guess the Bruins would then feel the same; they traded Thornton then later got Savard and Chiara as their new team leaders and haven't won anything as of yet (and, they are actually falling back now). So, they may as well move Savard and Chiara and look elsewhere? As well, Philly hasn't won anything with the likes of Carter and Richards so, they trade them and build with others?? As well, Ottawa hadn't won with Heater, Spezza and Alfredson ( and don't look like they will this year that is for sure ) so, they moved Heater (although not by choice) and looked elsewhere but, then again as stated, it doesn't look like they will win anything this year that is for sure. We can go on.

So, do we go this circle over and over or do we do as the likes of the Wings have done and Jersey whom both have been very succesful in recent years after some time of suffering, and build around what we have? Such as with the advice in which Jimmy Devellano gave D.W. last summer; when you're that close, you don't blow it up you only tinker with what you've got. Moving Joe and/or Patty would be much more than a tinker.

In the Olympics, Joe didn't play bad, neither did most our guys. What is missing on this team is a coach, such as a Babcock, whom can push our main guys. I never thought T.M. was the right guy, as some will remember from old posts, and I still don't think he is the one. Man, he seems terrified to pull Naby when Naby shows he is off his game in the first few minutes of a game!

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Old
03-05-2010, 05:38 PM
  #81
TNT8592
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what kind of package you guys think setoguchi could get during the offseason?

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Old
03-05-2010, 06:05 PM
  #82
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what kind of package you guys think setoguchi could get during the offseason?
Hopefully it's a package that contains the Stanley Cup and he can show it off to his town for a day!

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Old
03-06-2010, 12:20 AM
  #83
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what kind of package you guys think setoguchi could get during the offseason?
Seto can get no one. Unless, some team wants to overpay us. Seto is part of the future. I don't see us parting with Seto.

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Old
03-06-2010, 12:37 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
But, with that kind of thinking, I guess the Bruins would then feel the same; they traded Thornton then later got Savard and Chiara as their new team leaders and haven't won anything as of yet (and, they are actually falling back now). So, they may as well move Savard and Chiara and look elsewhere? As well, Philly hasn't won anything with the likes of Carter and Richards so, they trade them and build with others?? As well, Ottawa hadn't won with Heater, Spezza and Alfredson ( and don't look like they will this year that is for sure ) so, they moved Heater (although not by choice) and looked elsewhere but, then again as stated, it doesn't look like they will win anything this year that is for sure. We can go on.

So, do we go this circle over and over or do we do as the likes of the Wings have done and Jersey whom both have been very succesful in recent years after some time of suffering, and build around what we have? Such as with the advice in which Jimmy Devellano gave D.W. last summer; when you're that close, you don't blow it up you only tinker with what you've got. Moving Joe and/or Patty would be much more than a tinker.

In the Olympics, Joe didn't play bad, neither did most our guys. What is missing on this team is a coach, such as a Babcock, whom can push our main guys. I never thought T.M. was the right guy, as some will remember from old posts, and I still don't think he is the one. Man, he seems terrified to pull Naby when Naby shows he is off his game in the first few minutes of a game!
They went away from Jimmy D's advice when they turned over half the team this off-season. You think that it's just tinkering adding Heatley, Malhotra, Nichol, Ortmeyer, Huskins, Wallin, Leach, and having a revolving door of minor leaguers?

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Old
03-06-2010, 12:53 PM
  #85
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is there any possible way we could get shea weber? im just wondering because he is one hella of a player! what would be a good package?

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Old
03-06-2010, 01:54 PM
  #86
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is there any possible way we could get shea weber? im just wondering because he is one hella of a player! what would be a good package?
Aim for Suter, and think Heatley+. Nashville's bread and butter is going to be having one of those two on the ice for 55 minutes per game for the next 10 years. They are both #1 D-men at 25.

Not trying to kill your hopes and dreams, he is just as untouchable as they come.

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03-06-2010, 01:55 PM
  #87
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is there any possible way we could get shea weber? im just wondering because he is one hella of a player! what would be a good package?
It would be a less than 1% possibility. For Weber to be moved, there would have to be some sort of friction between him and the organization. Then, the Preds being who they are would need to have equal salary going back since they're near the floor. It's also going to be tough for the Sharks to pony up value in the range of 4.5 mil to make the Preds want to deal him to a conference rival.

I think the Sharks would have to offer up Setoguchi, Couture, and a 1st rounder for Weber just to get them to not hang up the phone...and that's if there was a motivation to move Weber which at this point there is not.

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03-06-2010, 02:02 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
They went away from Jimmy D's advice when they turned over half the team this off-season. You think that it's just tinkering adding Heatley, Malhotra, Nichol, Ortmeyer, Huskins, Wallin, Leach, and having a revolving door of minor leaguers?
Adding the slew of 3rd/4th liners + 5th/6th D men would be considered tinkering. This is the most replaceable commodity in hockey. The adding of Heater, yes was a huge move but in the end, we really didn't give up much so, solid addition without substantial removal.

So, D.W. did in essence kind of stick with the advice as, he didn't remove anything on the core other than 1, Milan.

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03-06-2010, 02:09 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Adding the slew of 3rd/4th liners + 5th/6th D men would be considered tinkering. This is the most replaceable commodity in hockey. The adding of Heater, yes was a huge move but in the end, we really didn't give up much so, solid addition without substantial removal.

So, D.W. did in essence kind of stick with the advice as, he didn't remove anything on the core other than 1, Milan.
That's where the bulk of people will disagree with you. Losing Michalek and Ehrhoff for Heatley, in essence is not tinkering.

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03-06-2010, 02:14 PM
  #90
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That's where the bulk of people will disagree with you. Losing Michalek and Ehrhoff for Heatley, in essence is not tinkering.
Ehrhoff I agree was a really silly move and a big mistake. But, the bringing in of Heater and the only major player going away being Milan; no comparison. Yes, I myself didn't like losing Milan, would have rather seen another go in his place, such as Clowe but, Heater coming here is no comparison in what we gave up. Ehrhoff on the other hand, I agree with you as, it was the one big mistake D.W. made last summer; giving his money to Blake on only a 1 year deal when we could have had Christian a lot longer with much more of a return.

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03-06-2010, 02:29 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
That's where the bulk of people will disagree with you. Losing Michalek and Ehrhoff for Heatley, in essence is not tinkering.
I still think there is more to it than we realize. I think Heatley was brought in because DW is planning on dumping someone (Marleau/Thornton) in the off-season. Heatley gives him a back-up plan and improved negotiating power with Marleau.

Michalek still hasn't panned out, and may never. Heatley has a long contract, is consistent, and is a guaranteed commodity.

Ehrhoff was a painful loss, but again, we don't know what the situation was. Remember our org isn't like most others, if there was discontent we would never know about it. Ehrhoff may have been unhappy, and wanted out. We just don't know.

I think even Jimmy D makes that deal, all things considered.

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03-06-2010, 02:35 PM
  #92
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I still think there is more to it than we realize. I think Heatley was brought in because DW is planning on dumping someone (Marleau/Thornton) in the off-season. Heatley gives him a back-up plan and improved negotiating power with Marleau.

Michalek still hasn't panned out, and may never. Heatley has a long contract, is consistent, and is a guaranteed commodity.

Ehrhoff was a painful loss, but again, we don't know what the situation was. Remember our org isn't like most others, if there was discontent we would never know about it. Ehrhoff may have been unhappy, and wanted out. We just don't know.

I think even Jimmy D makes that deal, all things considered.
So true on every point. One thing almost for certain, which would relate to your point on Heater; if we go out the first or second round this season, the two BIG moves you can be guaranteed of will simply be that Patty and Naby will not be re-signed (on Patty, "possibly / only maybe" if he were to take a massive pay cut). Moving forward with Heater and Joe along with whomever will replace Patty (or Seto for that matter if the bringing in will not be too substantial).

And your 100% right, with the gift of a deal for Heater in which we did, even Jimmy D makes that move. No questions asked just a quick thank you and let's sign it now.

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03-06-2010, 03:09 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Adding the slew of 3rd/4th liners + 5th/6th D men would be considered tinkering. This is the most replaceable commodity in hockey. The adding of Heater, yes was a huge move but in the end, we really didn't give up much so, solid addition without substantial removal.

So, D.W. did in essence kind of stick with the advice as, he didn't remove anything on the core other than 1, Milan.
DW removed two top 10 skaters on the team. That is borderline. One is normal. Remove three and you pretty much are giving up on a cup in the following season. I have done the stats. The moves out of the bottom 8 are not tinkering no matter how you slice it. In grabbing the stats for the top ten, DW did what was similar to a team in rebuild mode. It is the type of movement that is typical of a team that was out of the playoffs and might go two rounds in if the GM is successful. No, Jimmy D would not call that tinkering and I can compare it to moves that were made by the Isles and Wings before they won their cups. Please don't spin it.

I agree that DW might have made the Heatley move by itself. That is tinkering. He might have moved one or two of the bottom 8. That is tinkering and is similar to what the Isles and Wings did.

Even the teams that are high transaction teams tone it down before doing their cup runs. The one recent exception to this rule of thumb is Pittsburgh.

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03-06-2010, 03:39 PM
  #94
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I still think there is more to it than we realize. I think Heatley was brought in because DW is planning on dumping someone (Marleau/Thornton) in the off-season. Heatley gives him a back-up plan and improved negotiating power with Marleau.

Michalek still hasn't panned out, and may never. Heatley has a long contract, is consistent, and is a guaranteed commodity.

Ehrhoff was a painful loss, but again, we don't know what the situation was. Remember our org isn't like most others, if there was discontent we would never know about it. Ehrhoff may have been unhappy, and wanted out. We just don't know.

I think even Jimmy D makes that deal, all things considered.
I don't think there is all that much more to it than what we've all seen. I don't think that Ehrhoff had a problem or that DW had a problem with him. I think that DW did want Heatley but he wanted him on his terms. This was why the Heatley to SJ thing was non-existent prior to the bonus date. I think DW knew Heatley wanted to be there and vice-versa. That's why he declined going to Edmonton. That's why DW hung on to Ehrhoff as long as he did. He needed to be certain that Murray would okay the deal after the bonus was paid out. Where I also think there was more going on was Murray knowing he was going to move Heatley out. He knew well before the supposed meeting with Heatley before camp. He just wanted to give DW time to dump salary to accommodate for Heatley's. Yes, the salary's are pretty even but when you lose two for one and lose two for none, you still have to have room for replacements.

As for Michalek, he's panned out. He's what they thought he'd be coming out of the draft. The most ready NHL player but that comes with a limited top end potential. He's a consistent 25 goal scorer with quality defensive play and great speed. He's a very good complimentary piece.

I didn't have an issue with Michalek and Cheechoo for Heatley. That's more than fine and on the face of it, it is a steal. The problem was losing Ehrhoff to make it happen. Heatley is but one reason why we had to dump Ehrhoff. Blake is another. Clowe is another. Mitchell is another. Huskins is another. There were a lot of reasons that he became the odd man out and it came back to DW overspending on his talent.

The loss of both Michalek and Ehrhoff is huge on our team speed. There are only three guys with speed and defensive acumen and those guys are Marleau, Malhotra, and Boyle. Only having one guy with above average speed on the back end is going to burn the team come playoff time against good teams. Maybe Heatley was brought in as a contingency plan for Marleau...or Thornton (this one I doubt). We'll see soon enough.

I think Jimmy D wouldn't have a problem bringing Heatley aboard for what the specific trade cost. However, I believe he would've taken a different course of action with regards to the blue line and keeping other guys.

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03-06-2010, 05:36 PM
  #95
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I don't think there is all that much more to it than what we've all seen. I don't think that Ehrhoff had a problem or that DW had a problem with him. I think that DW did want Heatley but he wanted him on his terms. This was why the Heatley to SJ thing was non-existent prior to the bonus date. I think DW knew Heatley wanted to be there and vice-versa. That's why he declined going to Edmonton. That's why DW hung on to Ehrhoff as long as he did. He needed to be certain that Murray would okay the deal after the bonus was paid out. Where I also think there was more going on was Murray knowing he was going to move Heatley out. He knew well before the supposed meeting with Heatley before camp. He just wanted to give DW time to dump salary to accommodate for Heatley's. Yes, the salary's are pretty even but when you lose two for one and lose two for none, you still have to have room for replacements.

As for Michalek, he's panned out. He's what they thought he'd be coming out of the draft. The most ready NHL player but that comes with a limited top end potential. He's a consistent 25 goal scorer with quality defensive play and great speed. He's a very good complimentary piece.

I didn't have an issue with Michalek and Cheechoo for Heatley. That's more than fine and on the face of it, it is a steal. The problem was losing Ehrhoff to make it happen. Heatley is but one reason why we had to dump Ehrhoff. Blake is another. Clowe is another. Mitchell is another. Huskins is another. There were a lot of reasons that he became the odd man out and it came back to DW overspending on his talent.

The loss of both Michalek and Ehrhoff is huge on our team speed. There are only three guys with speed and defensive acumen and those guys are Marleau, Malhotra, and Boyle. Only having one guy with above average speed on the back end is going to burn the team come playoff time against good teams. Maybe Heatley was brought in as a contingency plan for Marleau...or Thornton (this one I doubt). We'll see soon enough.

I think Jimmy D wouldn't have a problem bringing Heatley aboard for what the specific trade cost. However, I believe he would've taken a different course of action with regards to the blue line and keeping other guys.
Ya, I probably agree with you on the last point, but really what I was getting at was that there were probably mitigating circumstances that we were unaware of. Dissatisfaction was just one example.

And you are right about the other salaries. Would you prefer Heatley + Blake over Michalek, Cheechoo, and Ehrhoff? That's a hard one to say until we see how 'captain' Blake pans out in the playoffs. If his leadership gets us a cup, then absolutely it was a good trade. Or it could have been Heatley + Clowe, or Heatley + Mitchell + Huskins vs Michalek, Cheech, and Ehrhoff. All those scenarios are close, and dumping Cheech's 3mil of dead weight (for two seasons) is a big add.

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03-07-2010, 10:12 PM
  #96
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we will sign one of Z. Michalek (please?), Volchenkov, Hamhuis, Martin, Kubina or Mitchell

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03-07-2010, 10:36 PM
  #97
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we will sign one of Z. Michalek (please?), Volchenkov, Hamhuis, Martin, Kubina or Mitchell
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we will sign one of Z. Michalek (please?), Volchenkov, Hamhuis, Martin, Kubina or Mitchell
I was just wondering that.

W/ the below 22-man roster, we'd be at $55.9m in total cap and could afford up to $4.5m per for a top 4 dman. I assume the cap stays the same as this year.

Guesses for re-signing amounts in red bold.

C
Joe Thornton $7.200
Joe Pavelski $3.670 (multi-year to his UFA year)
Manny Malhotra $1.500 (for 2 yrs)
Scott Nichol $0.900 (1 or 2 yrs)

Logan Couture $0.815

Lw
Dany Heatley $7.500
Patrick Marleau $5.250 (5-7 yr deal)
Jamie McGinn $0.677
Frazier McLaren $0.500

RW
Devin Setoguchi $2.750 (1yr deal)
Jed Ortmeyer $0.600 (1 yr)
Brad Staubitz $0.500 (1 yr)

Benn Ferreiro $0.635

D
Dan Boyle $6.667
top 4 dman $4.500
Marc-Edouard Vlasic $3.100
Douglas Murray $2.500
Nik Wallin $1.000 (1 or 2 yrs)
Jason Demers $0.543
Jay Leach $0.500 (1 yr)

G
Evgeni Nabokov $4.000 (2 yr deal)

Thomas Griess $0.550


Moves:
- Trade Clowe, Mitchell and Huskins for a top4 dman (or sign a UFA) and picks/prospects.

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03-07-2010, 11:18 PM
  #98
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I was just wondering that.

W/ the below 22-man roster, we'd be at $55.9m in total cap and could afford up to $4.5m per for a top 4 dman. I assume the cap stays the same as this year.

Guesses for re-signing amounts in red bold.

C
Joe Thornton $7.200
Joe Pavelski $3.670 (multi-year to his UFA year)
Manny Malhotra $1.500 (for 2 yrs)
Scott Nichol $0.900 (1 or 2 yrs)

Logan Couture $0.815

Lw
Dany Heatley $7.500
Patrick Marleau $5.250 (5-7 yr deal)
Jamie McGinn $0.677
Frazier McLaren $0.500

RW
Devin Setoguchi $2.750 (1yr deal)
Jed Ortmeyer $0.600 (1 yr)
Brad Staubitz $0.500 (1 yr)

Benn Ferreiro $0.635

D
Dan Boyle $6.667
top 4 dman $4.500
Marc-Edouard Vlasic $3.100
Douglas Murray $2.500
Nik Wallin $1.000 (1 or 2 yrs)
Jason Demers $0.543
Jay Leach $0.500 (1 yr)

G
Evgeni Nabokov $4.000 (2 yr deal)

Thomas Griess $0.550


Moves:
- Trade Clowe, Mitchell and Huskins for a top4 dman (or sign a UFA) and picks/prospects.
Sadly I don't think your estimates for Marleau, Nabby, Joe P, or Seto are realistic.

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03-07-2010, 11:28 PM
  #99
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Sadly I don't think your estimates for Marleau, Nabby, Joe P, or Seto are realistic.
Have better guesses or justification for your statement?

I can see Patty's being tough - I'm banking on the home-town discount... He could make a killing on the open market but we all know that.

Pavs I think is well inline with what he can get. Zajac's at 3.88, Weiss is at 3.1,

Seto's value has declined so a 1 year deal may be best for him and the team. No way he's close to what some were speculating Kessel value.

Nabby, I really think is the least important. If he doesn't take a 4m deal, let him go.

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03-07-2010, 11:30 PM
  #100
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So like, if we get knocked out in the first round, is Doug Wilson gonna resign Marleau and Nabokov? Will he trade Thornton and Heatley?

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