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Typical over-reaction by some Oiler fans (posters)

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Old
03-03-2010, 11:54 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Yeah... you said the same bit after Pronger was dealt.

That threw this team back 5 years, and this trade might not be that bad, but it's certainly in the ballpark.
Not even close. Pronger was much more to this team than Visnovsky ever was.

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03-04-2010, 12:07 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by copper_blue View Post
My issue is not the trade itself. I agree we should have received more. Whitney does have question marks.

My point is some posters who were against the trade, IMO over-reacted. (yes, I know posters are entitled to their opinion). Give Whitney a chance to prove or disprove himself. He is not a bad d-man. Hopefully, Whitney will be more valuable to the Oilers in three years, as compared to Visnovsky.

If you disagree, that's fine by me. I'm not here to get into personal arguments with other posters. Just stating my two cents.

If you agree, that's cool.
You're certainly entitled to argue that the deal was a reasonable one, but I take issue with the issue of "over-reaction". It doesn't go to the real issue, which is whether or not the deal was a good one.

Your other point is relevant, namely Whitney should be given a chance.

I would certainly give him a chance, but it's perfectly rational and logical to judge the deal based on the players' past achievements, and the general direction of our team. Our opinions now are not static, they can change over time. Obviously, our opinions now are influenced by the present circumstances and what we know now. They are no more or less valid than taking a neutral or optimistic stance (which it seems you are taking).

What we know is this: Visnovsky is a top pairing defenseman. He is soft, but reliable defensively and good offensively. He is getting older, but will likely remain a good overall defenseman next year, and at the very least a very good top 4 defenseman for the remainder of his contract. His cap hit is 5.6M for the next 3 seasons, making it difficult to move without salary back, especially at the deadline.

Whitney is a top 4 defenseman, but currently cannot be counted on as the anchor of a top pairing. He is extremely soft despite his size and possesses excellent offensive skills. However, he appears to be average to weak defensively and also appears to possess excellent turnover skills. Pens fans were happy to be rid of him, and so are Ducks fans, after hoping he would turn a new leaf with their organization. He is about 6 years younger than Visnovsky, but is entering what should be the peak of his career. His cap hit is 4M for the next 3 seasons.

My take: This is an extremely peculiar deal. It seems like a hockey deal and a cap deal rolled into one, with neither aspect fulfilled particularly satisfactorily. We save 1.6M for the next 3 seasons, but it's important to note that Whitney's cap hit is considerable (same as Gilbert for one less year).

We are not really fulfilling a need - Gilbert appears to have a similar skill set, and Whitney seems to be replacing Grebs, leaving us without someone to do the defensive work. Whitney has offensive skills, but seems like a bit of a project for coaches to round out his overall game. At his salary, I'd prefer someone who is already established or has so much offensive punch that we can live with his mistakes.

This does not appear to be a deal that had to be made now. Would Visnovsky's value really drop that much in the off-season? If we are really going into rebuild, why take a guy with 3 years left on a fairly hefty deal when it's likely he won't out-perform his contract? Why not try and deal him in the off-season when teams have more cap space? The UFA market for top pairing defensemen is generally limited, and I'd think there'd be a better deal available then.

At this point, I can see only 2 possible ways for the deal to be a success. Whitney's age and slightly lower salary makes him easier to move than Visnovsky, if necessary. Whitney somehow gets his head screwed on right for us and plays like a man possessed. The former might have some juice, but the latter goes against what I've heard about Whitney so far. Fortunately, there's still a chance he can be good as he's got the skills, and at the very least, we might be able to sell that "potential" to another GM.

I don't think the dollars we saved, relative to the amount that is still locked up, is enough to call this deal a cap success. The idea of the Visnovsky deal is the same as the other 2 defensemen deals (I like the Staios move; I am okay with the Grebs move, but wish we got a B prospect too), but I'm disappointed with the execution.

I don't see a coherent plan yet (general direction = rebuild?), but I'll reserve judgment on the overall picture until the off-season. I hope to see more cost-cutting, short-term contracts for free agents and vets, and quality contracts for promising young players so the Oilers can look a little more respectable next year.

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Old
03-04-2010, 12:15 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
So why take back a contract?
At this point in time, I doubt we have much of a choice. 5.6M for the next 3 seasons is difficult for many teams to handle, especially at the deadline when many teams are fairly close to the cap. More teams can handle it in the off-season, but even then I'd expected at least 2-3M back even then, but hopefully for fewer years.

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03-04-2010, 12:19 AM
  #54
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I love Lubo but he's gonna be 34....making 5.6 million....and 3 years left on the contract

We're re-building, he doesn't need this nonsense
Whitney is younger and cheaper....too bad he's Tom Gilbert ver. 2.0

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03-04-2010, 12:27 AM
  #55
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I think that we're going to like Johnson - I've read nothing but positives about his game today... I guess that he was just a numbers victim in Chicago and Calgary.

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03-04-2010, 12:32 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDO View Post
That threw this team back 5 years, and this trade might not be that bad, but it's certainly in the ballpark.
Hardly.

I'm real torn up that Lubo is gone too, and we certainly downgraded. That said, the leap from Visnovsky to Whitney is miles narrower than the chasm between Pronger and Smid.

In all honesty, if Tambellini uses the new cap space wisely, our blueline probably will be about on par with what it was this year... perhaps even better if we can add some balance and grit. I don't think we're a playoff team this year, but man it would be tough to repeat this year's performance next season.

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03-04-2010, 12:33 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blatherblah View Post

What we know is this: Visnovsky is a top pairing defenseman. He is soft, but reliable defensively and good offensively. He is getting older, but will likely remain a good overall defenseman next year, and at the very least a very good top 4 defenseman for the remainder of his contract. His cap hit is 5.6M for the next 3 seasons, making it difficult to move without salary back, especially at the deadline.

Whitney is a top 4 defenseman, but currently cannot be counted on as the anchor of a top pairing. He is extremely soft despite his size and possesses excellent offensive skills. However, he appears to be average to weak defensively and also appears to possess excellent turnover skills. Pens fans were happy to be rid of him, and so are Ducks fans, after hoping he would turn a new leaf with their organization. He is about 6 years younger than Visnovsky, but is entering what should be the peak of his career. His cap hit is 4M for the next 3 seasons.

My take: This is an extremely peculiar deal. It seems like a hockey deal and a cap deal rolled into one, with neither aspect fulfilled particularly satisfactorily. We save 1.6M for the next 3 seasons, but it's important to note that Whitney's cap hit is considerable (same as Gilbert for one less year).

We are not really fulfilling a need - Gilbert appears to have a similar skill set, and Whitney seems to be replacing Grebs, leaving us without someone to do the defensive work.
I deleted the points I did not want to respond to - but am very impressed with your take on the defensemen trades...

I would have preferred Souray & Staios gone during the trade deadline - but Souray's glass hand destroyed that dream... Much as I like Staios, I am glad his cap hit vanishes next season...

If the Oilers knew that Visnovsky was going, there was no need to unload Grebeshkov. Gilbert / Grebs / Whitney would have been good PP point men... Very good young core...


Souray should have been the summer trade bait - giving us lots of money to keep my Russian buddy...

Just pointing out that my reaction is not an "over-reaction"...

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Old
03-04-2010, 12:40 AM
  #58
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Yeah another over-reaction by the Oiler posters. I mean I think the Oilers record this year speaks for itself. The organization definitely deserves to be above reproach. It's not like the Oilers organization time and time again proves all these negative nancies right.

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03-04-2010, 01:19 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
I did not see the " " or a " "...
You tend to get to know the posters here after a while. You should know this REA! If I put a after my posts, I would win the record for being the emoticon king of these fun, but sometimes awkward, boards. Now get back to the real business of flogging this trade with a whip until it bleeds like the puss filled infection in Captain Souray's hand

EDIT: Oh Yeah, I forgot............................................ ....


Last edited by McDorian2: 03-04-2010 at 01:28 AM.
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03-04-2010, 01:31 AM
  #60
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T-o_Nm_If0

at least he attempts to fight

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03-04-2010, 01:41 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post

You tend to get to know the posters here after a while. You should know this REA!
Thank you for dragging me into a topic thread - what is your point......


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus View Post

Yeah another over-reaction by the Oiler posters. I mean I think the Oilers record this year speaks for itself.
Yes it does...

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03-04-2010, 01:46 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex87 View Post
Hardly.

I'm real torn up that Lubo is gone too, and we certainly downgraded. That said, the leap from Visnovsky to Whitney is miles narrower than the chasm between Pronger and Smid.

In all honesty, if Tambellini uses the new cap space wisely, our blueline probably will be about on par with what it was this year... perhaps even better if we can add some balance and grit. I don't think we're a playoff team this year, but man it would be tough to repeat this year's performance next season.
You really think he will?

This is a guy who thought Chris Niel @ $2,000,000 a year for 4 years and a 36 year old goalie with a bad back for $14,000,000 / 4 years were good ideas.

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03-04-2010, 01:47 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
And how good has our d-core been with visnovsky?

I liked him too but let us be realistic this team is in 30th place!
Just because the team sucks, doesn't mean you make moves for the sake of making them. Should we trade Hemsky for Olesz just because we suck and want to save some cap space?

What happened today is the Oilers traded a player with 3 years left on his contract for another player who has 3 years left on his contract. Visnovsky is clearly gonna be the better player for those 3 years so we don't benefit in that time period. After the contracts are done, both are ufa's so we won't benefit then either.

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03-04-2010, 01:58 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
Thank you for dragging me into a topic thread - what is your point...... :
Maybe you just made my point for me, thanks REA...much appreciated

Oh Yeah...............

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:38 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Blatherblah View Post
You're certainly entitled to argue that the deal was a reasonable one, but I take issue with the issue of "over-reaction". It doesn't go to the real issue, which is whether or not the deal was a good one.

Your other point is relevant, namely Whitney should be given a chance.

I would certainly give him a chance, but it's perfectly rational and logical to judge the deal based on the players' past achievements, and the general direction of our team. Our opinions now are not static, they can change over time. Obviously, our opinions now are influenced by the present circumstances and what we know now. They are no more or less valid than taking a neutral or optimistic stance (which it seems you are taking).

What we know is this: Visnovsky is a top pairing defenseman. He is soft, but reliable defensively and good offensively. He is getting older, but will likely remain a good overall defenseman next year, and at the very least a very good top 4 defenseman for the remainder of his contract. His cap hit is 5.6M for the next 3 seasons, making it difficult to move without salary back, especially at the deadline.

Whitney is a top 4 defenseman, but currently cannot be counted on as the anchor of a top pairing. He is extremely soft despite his size and possesses excellent offensive skills. However, he appears to be average to weak defensively and also appears to possess excellent turnover skills. Pens fans were happy to be rid of him, and so are Ducks fans, after hoping he would turn a new leaf with their organization. He is about 6 years younger than Visnovsky, but is entering what should be the peak of his career. His cap hit is 4M for the next 3 seasons.

My take: This is an extremely peculiar deal. It seems like a hockey deal and a cap deal rolled into one, with neither aspect fulfilled particularly satisfactorily. We save 1.6M for the next 3 seasons, but it's important to note that Whitney's cap hit is considerable (same as Gilbert for one less year).

We are not really fulfilling a need - Gilbert appears to have a similar skill set, and Whitney seems to be replacing Grebs, leaving us without someone to do the defensive work. Whitney has offensive skills, but seems like a bit of a project for coaches to round out his overall game. At his salary, I'd prefer someone who is already established or has so much offensive punch that we can live with his mistakes.

This does not appear to be a deal that had to be made now. Would Visnovsky's value really drop that much in the off-season? If we are really going into rebuild, why take a guy with 3 years left on a fairly hefty deal when it's likely he won't out-perform his contract? Why not try and deal him in the off-season when teams have more cap space? The UFA market for top pairing defensemen is generally limited, and I'd think there'd be a better deal available then.

At this point, I can see only 2 possible ways for the deal to be a success. Whitney's age and slightly lower salary makes him easier to move than Visnovsky, if necessary. Whitney somehow gets his head screwed on right for us and plays like a man possessed. The former might have some juice, but the latter goes against what I've heard about Whitney so far. Fortunately, there's still a chance he can be good as he's got the skills, and at the very least, we might be able to sell that "potential" to another GM.

I don't think the dollars we saved, relative to the amount that is still locked up, is enough to call this deal a cap success. The idea of the Visnovsky deal is the same as the other 2 defensemen deals (I like the Staios move; I am okay with the Grebs move, but wish we got a B prospect too), but I'm disappointed with the execution.

I don't see a coherent plan yet (general direction = rebuild?), but I'll reserve judgment on the overall picture until the off-season. I hope to see more cost-cutting, short-term contracts for free agents and vets, and quality contracts for promising young players so the Oilers can look a little more respectable next year.
This is the best post I've seen today after reading through three threads and countless pages. I think everyone should read it in full.

Thank you.

The bold text being the most important point. Most posters defending the trade seem to be ignoring this point. I believe this move is what the large majority opposed to the trade return would have preferred.

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03-04-2010, 03:01 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by slambanna View Post
This is the best post I've seen today after reading through three threads and countless pages. I think everyone should read it in full.

Thank you.

The bold text being the most important point. Most posters defending the trade seem to be ignoring this point. I believe this move is what the large majority opposed to the trade return would have preferred.
A word of advice - no one likes to be told what to read.

My response to the post would be it is always easier to do the job if you don't have the job. How do we know if Visnovsky didn't ask to be traded. Don't blame him if he did.

Too many varibles to consider in this deal plus we don't know what the Oilers plans are.

I do know one thing, I will no longer drink the koolaid.

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03-04-2010, 03:02 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by MDupont View Post
A word of advice - no one likes to be told what to read.

My response to the post would be it is always easier to do the job if you don't have the job. How do we know if Visnovsky didn't ask to be traded. Don't blame him if he did.

Too many varibles to consider in this deal plus we don't know what the Oilers plans are.

I do know one thing, I will no longer drink the koolaid.
Because if a player asks to be traded, you should roll out the red carpet like Kevin Lowe did for Chris Pronger!!!

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03-04-2010, 03:13 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Because if a player asks to be traded, you should roll out the red carpet like Kevin Lowe did for Chris Pronger!!!
Not what I meant at all, in fact the direct opposite. All I meant by it was we will hear all kinds of excuses from management on why Visnovsky returned so little. All of it will become what we know as, koolaid.

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03-04-2010, 03:17 AM
  #69
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Not what I meant at all, in fact the direct opposite. All I meant by it was we will hear all kinds of excuses from management on why Visnovsky returned so little. All of it will become what we know as, koolaid.
I really don't think Visnovsky would fetch a ton more in the summer.

We got him for basically a third line center and a no.4 d-man to begin with, and his value should've been higher then than it is now.

When I see the return on Phaneuf, that was absolutely shocking. The return on Kovalchuk was also extremely underwhelming.

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03-04-2010, 03:23 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
I really don't think Visnovsky would fetch a ton more in the summer.

We got him for basically a third line center and a no.4 d-man to begin with, and his value should've been higher then than it is now.

When I see the return on Phaneuf, that was absolutely shocking. The return on Kovalchuk was also extremely underwhelming.
That may be true and I will give you that, but Vis was arguably our best player. There was clearly no reason to deal him right now.

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03-04-2010, 03:24 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by MDupont View Post
A word of advice - no one likes to be told what to read.

My response to the post would be it is always easier to do the job if you don't have the job. How do we know if Visnovsky didn't ask to be traded. Don't blame him if he did.

Too many varibles to consider in this deal plus we don't know what the Oilers plans are.

I do know one thing, I will no longer drink the koolaid.
Everything you said here is true and is probably the reason I don't normally bother posting.
All a poster can do here is form an opinion on the known facts and speculate. I believe this poster has made the best contribution on this busy day and just wanted to second the opinion.

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03-04-2010, 03:41 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by MDupont View Post
Not what I meant at all, in fact the direct opposite. All I meant by it was we will hear all kinds of excuses from management on why Visnovsky returned so little. All of it will become what we know as, koolaid.
Sorry - misread, my bad.

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03-04-2010, 03:46 AM
  #73
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Sorry - misread, my bad.
no worries man, I didn't exactly type it out in a comprehensible way. too many bud lights of the BC nature.

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03-04-2010, 09:08 AM
  #74
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1) With posters' over reaction and criticism, this is exactly an example on why players call Edmonton a microscope town. Whitney is already a scape-goat without even putting the jersey on.

No I don't think anyone is making him a scapegoat yet at all. I've seen no evidence of that. They are critical of the trade though.

2) Let Whitney play for 20 games in an Oiler uniform before you judge him. Then criticize, if its warranted.

But management doesn't get to give guys 20 game trials. It's perfectly acceptable to evaluate a trade from day one. Then you take the consequences, are you right or wrong in your assessment of the trade.

3) On paper, we might have lost the trade, but we did not get slaughtered. Its called a rebuild. To rid salary, get younger and bigger you need to lose a couple of trades in the present, for the benefit of the future.

The word rebuild does not mean 'an excuse to make bad trades.' You don't ever need to lose in trades. The beef that some of us have in this trade is it is not really a rebuild trade. Only a 6th round pick. No young prospects. We only got rid of 1.6 in cap space. It helps but I'd have rather gotten rid of all of Visnoskys cap number and had some picks and 20 year old prospects instead.

4) Visnovsky is soft.

Not really. He is small not overly soft, certainly less soft than a guy like Gilbert and from all reports from Anaheim fans despite being big Whitney is soft.


5) I know some posters will respond by stating that they are entitled to their opinion, which is absolutely true. I just wanted to state my two cents.

Yup, and you are totally entitled to your opinion, we all are. I have no problem with people defending this deal even though I don't like it.

6) This is where my opinion will probably be ripped by some. (just like the Visnovsky trade)

As above, nothing wrong with your opinion. I disagree with it but you are totally entitled to it. That's what makes hockey discussion fun, differences of opinion.

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03-04-2010, 09:36 AM
  #75
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I don't understand why people think they know so much more than everybody else. We all know the team is rebuilding.


Oh, boy. I guess as fans now we're not allowed rational thought. Let's all give the players and management a free pass on everything.


He's soft and he hasn't put up points since he played with Crosby. I don't need to see him slip on a jersey to know that.


1.6 million isn't much cap relief when you're trading your best and most consistent player. I'd rather hold onto Visnovsky.


If you think Visnovsky's bad, wait until you see Whitney. He's soft as butter.
Really? Whitney has 38 points in 82 games since leaving Pittsburgh. He isn't putting up the same numbers as when he was in Pittsburgh, but he is still an offensive defenseman with size, and since I haven't watched a lot of Anaheim games, I will reserve judgement on Whitney until he plays for this team.

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