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Typical over-reaction by some Oiler fans (posters)

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Old
03-04-2010, 09:59 AM
  #76
Mentallydull
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Originally Posted by PKSpecialist View Post
Really? Whitney has 38 points in 82 games since leaving Pittsburgh. He isn't putting up the same numbers as when he was in Pittsburgh, but he is still an offensive defenseman with size, and since I haven't watched a lot of Anaheim games, I will reserve judgement on Whitney until he plays for this team.
Ahhh, the voice of reason.

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03-04-2010, 10:06 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by PKSpecialist View Post
Really? Whitney has 38 points in 82 games since leaving Pittsburgh.
Is it worth pointing out that Grebeshkov is on the same pace for points as Whitney?

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Old
03-04-2010, 10:12 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
I love Lubo but he's gonna be 34....making 5.6 million....and 3 years left on the contract

We're re-building, he doesn't need this nonsense
Whitney is younger and cheaper....too bad he's Tom Gilbert ver. 2.0
If this is true we're pickin' top two next year as well!

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03-04-2010, 10:25 AM
  #79
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Holy Christ is Visnovsky ever overrated.

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Old
03-04-2010, 10:55 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by PKSpecialist View Post
Really? Whitney has 38 points in 82 games since leaving Pittsburgh. He isn't putting up the same numbers as when he was in Pittsburgh, but he is still an offensive defenseman with size, and since I haven't watched a lot of Anaheim games, I will reserve judgement on Whitney until he plays for this team.
I've seen a lot of Whitney over the last couple of years and while he is a pretty good offensive defenseman, he's as soft as Gilbert if not softer so i would not put much stock into his size, he doesn't play near his size, go around and ask Pitt and Anaheim fans what they think of him and you'll see exactly what i mean.


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Old
03-04-2010, 11:09 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Skating View Post
Holy Christ is Visnovsky ever overrated.
I think with the abundance of terrible hockey here people have a tendency to overrate the bright spots on their team. Say it takes 3 year for this team to become a contender, by then Vishnovsky is over 35, probably not playing at the same level he is now, it's just not worth it to keep him.

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03-04-2010, 11:28 AM
  #82
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Honestly, I think Visnovsky would be a better mentor for these kids than Souray. He brings it every night and plays very consistent. Souray disappears in meaningless games, as we've all seen this season and can't be bothered to stay healthy. Visnovsky plays a much safer game while still playing huge minutes and not hurting the team.

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Old
03-04-2010, 11:33 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hemskyforpm View Post
Honestly, I think Visnovsky would be a better mentor for these kids than Souray. He brings it every night and plays very consistent. Souray disappears in meaningless games, as we've all seen this season and can't be bothered to stay healthy. Visnovsky plays a much safer game while still playing huge minutes and not hurting the team.
What makes you think Souray will play another game as an Oiler? If you need a guy to just mentor the younger guys, why would you pay almost 6 million for one?

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03-04-2010, 11:36 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erixon View Post
What makes you think Souray will play another game as an Oiler? If you need a guy to just mentor the younger guys, why would you pay almost 6 million for one?
I'm not convinced he's going to stay here, but the prevailing thought around the city right now is keep Souray so he can lead the kids. I definitely don't agree with it and illustrated why above.

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03-04-2010, 11:47 AM
  #85
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Considering we have one offesnive minded d-man prospect why do we need anyone other then Gilbert or Whitney to help him along? The real issue is having a defensive role model and that can be had for peanuts, I would be shocked if Strudwick isn't helping out with Peckahm and Motin. What can Lubo or Souray really teach a Peckham or Motin who play completly different roles?

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03-04-2010, 11:50 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by erixon View Post
I think with the abundance of terrible hockey here people have a tendency to overrate the bright spots on their team. Say it takes 3 year for this team to become a contender, by then Vishnovsky is over 35, probably not playing at the same level he is now, it's just not worth it to keep him.
Then why trade him for Whitney? It's not like Whitney is gonna be helping us a whole lot in 3 years if he is even here.

If this is the theory you suscribe to, then Visnovsky should have been moved for a deal that included some picks/prospects/young players.

Something like Visnovsky for Liles + 1st makes much more sense.

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03-04-2010, 12:38 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemskyfanboy83 View Post
Then why trade him for Whitney? It's not like Whitney is gonna be helping us a whole lot in 3 years if he is even here.

If this is the theory you suscribe to, then Visnovsky should have been moved for a deal that included some picks/prospects/young players.

Something like Visnovsky for Liles + 1st makes much more sense.
How do we know what Whitney will do in 3 years, the guy hasn't even played ONE GAME here? Hate to say it but if you think you are getting a first round pick and Liles for Vishnovsky, you are dreaming. Vishnovsky is not going to fetch you an abundance of picks and prospects. I love how people think that all these deals are going to be handed out by GM's across the league, when we picked up Vish, I didn't see any other teams offering much, and he was a few years younger. We got him for Stoll and Greene. Not exactly a big price tag.

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Old
03-04-2010, 12:46 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by MDupont View Post
A word of advice - no one likes to be told what to read.

My response to the post would be it is always easier to do the job if you don't have the job. How do we know if Visnovsky didn't ask to be traded. Don't blame him if he did.

Too many varibles to consider in this deal plus we don't know what the Oilers plans are.

I do know one thing, I will no longer drink the koolaid.
All of what you say is true. But we can only work with what we know, and based on what we know, my humble assessment, which may be entirely wrong to many of you, or to those privy to information not publicly available, is that we lost this deal (see above for my thoughts).

Visnovsky's said all the right things in public and doesn't appear to have put any pressure for the Oilers to make a deal at the deadline. He's been a great mentor for the kids (at least on the ice), and the one area of our NHL team that was respectable was our defense. I've been an opponent of moving Visnovsky, since I believe quality vets are valuable even on rebuilding teams (still do), but I've come around in recent months that we'd be better off moving him given his contract (especially the length), but I didn't see the urgency - no warning signs that his play was deteriorating, etc., and I think it would have been worth the gamble to wait for the off-season to make a better move.

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Old
03-04-2010, 12:48 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by copper_blue View Post
Wow, what an over reaction. I agree that Visnovsky is better that Whitney right now. However, you need to look at the whole picture.

1) With posters' over reaction and criticism, this is exactly an example on why players call Edmonton a microscope town. Whitney is already a scape-goat without even putting the jersey on.

2) Let Whitney play for 20 games in an Oiler uniform before you judge him. Then criticize, if its warranted.

3) On paper, we might have lost the trade, but we did not get slaughtered. Its called a rebuild. To rid salary, get younger and bigger you need to lose a couple of trades in the present, for the benefit of the future.

4) Visnovsky is soft.

5) I know some posters will respond by stating that they are entitled to their opinion, which is absolutely true. I just wanted to state my two cents.

6) This is where my opinion will probably be ripped by some. (just like the Visnovsky trade)

it is a simple question

"Is the difference between Whitney and Lubs 1.6mill?"

The answer is no. Whitney is a former number 5 pick who on paper looks good--but his numbers on the pens give what is science terms is "A false positive". With the Pens he looked good cause of what line he was on. Not on that line he got exposed and with the Ducks he has looked worse. Whitney is 6-4 but plays 5-9. He does not use his size to his advantage.

Whitney will be the new whipping boy on the oilers blue line.

Most people thought when the deal was announced the oilers were also getting the flyers first rounder. If they would have it would have been easier to swallow the deal.

Ducks moved a questionable D-man for a rock solid two way d-man. Whitney is not 22 he is 27 and he got tossed into the bust pile two years ago by the Pens--The Ducks just hosed the oilers in the deal. This trade was not worth the 1.6million savings and my prediction within 18 months he gets moved for 3rd rounder

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Old
03-04-2010, 12:49 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by erixon View Post
How do we know what Whitney will do in 3 years, the guy hasn't even played ONE GAME here? Hate to say it but if you think you are getting a first round pick and Liles for Vishnovsky, you are dreaming. Vishnovsky is not going to fetch you an abundance of picks and prospects. I love how people think that all these deals are going to be handed out by GM's across the league, when we picked up Vish, I didn't see any other teams offering much, and he was a few years younger. We got him for Stoll and Greene. Not exactly a big price tag.
But Stoll and Greene were younger (I think) and cheaper, in terms of cap hit and term, than Whitney. They provided a better bang for your buck, and cleared more salary than our deal. It was a great deal for both teams at the time because LA had a plethora of quality young D and enough experience (if I recall correctly) on the backend to nurture their youth. Edmonton also did well to acquire a bona fide top pairing defenseman, at a time when we were looking to make a playoff run.

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Old
03-04-2010, 12:51 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
it is a simple question

"Is the difference between Whitney and Lubs 1.6mill?"

The answer is no. Whitney is a former number 5 pick who on paper looks good--but his numbers on the pens give what is science terms is "A false positive". With the Pens he looked good cause of what line he was on. Not on that line he got exposed and with the Ducks he has looked worse. Whitney is 6-4 but plays 5-9. He does not use his size to his advantage.

Whitney will be the new whipping boy on the oilers blue line.

Most people thought when the deal was announced the oilers were also getting the flyers first rounder. If they would have it would have been easier to swallow the deal.

Ducks moved a questionable D-man for a rock solid two way d-man. Whitney is not 22 he is 27 and he got tossed into the bust pile two years ago by the Pens--The Ducks just hosed the oilers in the deal. This trade was not worth the 1.6million savings and my prediction within 18 months he gets moved for 3rd rounder
Who is the rock solid two way d-man? Also did you mean Whitney and a first for Lubo or just the 1st?

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03-04-2010, 12:51 PM
  #92
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I didn't know busts consistently put up 30+ pts for a dman.

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03-04-2010, 12:54 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Considering we have one offesnive minded d-man prospect why do we need anyone other then Gilbert or Whitney to help him along? The real issue is having a defensive role model and that can be had for peanuts, I would be shocked if Strudwick isn't helping out with Peckahm and Motin. What can Lubo or Souray really teach a Peckham or Motin who play completly different roles?
Visnovsky's more than an offensive defenseman. He's not physical, but he's a quality defender. And the guy he's helped the most this year, Smid, is a physical, defensive guy anyways. It's also not just what they teach, but keeping the kids from the "hard minutes" and destroying their confidence. Look at Stamkos' disastrous start to his rookie year to where he is now. I think confidence, among other things, is a big part to how a prospect develops.

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03-04-2010, 12:55 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by PepsiFiend View Post
I didn't know busts consistently put up 30+ pts for a dman.
Why do people only look at points as the true indication of how good a defenseman is? He is a DEFENSEman and he's horrible at playing DEFENSE, always has been, he is pretty good offensively but we don't need another good offensive defenseman, we need a defenseman who knows how to play defense.

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03-04-2010, 01:08 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Blatherblah View Post
Visnovsky's more than an offensive defenseman. He's not physical, but he's a quality defender. And the guy he's helped the most this year, Smid, is a physical, defensive guy anyways. It's also not just what they teach, but keeping the kids from the "hard minutes" and destroying their confidence. Look at Stamkos' disastrous start to his rookie year to where he is now. I think confidence, among other things, is a big part to how a prospect develops.
Problem is Lubo never was a "hard minute" guy here and he doesn't play the defensive role in Edmonton. I really don't know where this comes from, because since he has been here he doesn't play the PK and he plays the easier minutes, heck Chorney has played harder competiton according to behindthenet's numbers.

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03-04-2010, 01:10 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Dreger had the Oilers as one of the winners of deadline day and I agree with him. By the time July 1st rolls around they will have slashed near 10 million off of their cap.
Just to play devil's advocate - which would you rather have:

1) A legit #1 d-man who's worth his $5.6M cap hit (and actually makes fewer $'s than his cap hit, so his value should be higher to a team operating below the salary cap).

OR

2) A offensive defensemen, that while bigger plays the same soft game that Vis does, hasn't produced offensively to justify his poor defensive play after not being on PITT's top PP over the last 2 years, is locked up long term to what is considered a bad contract.

My problem is that age and unused size don't matter as much as value relative to their contract. Vis was a legit #1, and Whitney is a marginal 3/4 as right now. Vis's contract was reasonable considering his recent play and production. Whitney is overpaid, and the deal only saves $1.6M per season. If the organization has trouble attracting UFA's (and if it was tough before - after a last place finish it's just going to get worse), not sure how to value the extra cap room.

Disclaimer: I would have no problem with a Visnovsky trade - if he was traded for good prospect, a 2nd round DP, and an expring expensive contract to balance out the $'s. At least in that case there are significant future assets, and freeing up a lot of cap room long term. What seemed to happen is that the Oilers took a significant downgrade in talent to save a free up a little cap room. After some of the other contracts given out, that seems like burning down the house because it needs a new coat of paint.


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03-04-2010, 01:11 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Why do people only look at points as the true indication of how good a defenseman is? He is a DEFENSEman and he's horrible at playing DEFENSE, always has been, he is pretty good offensively but we don't need another good offensive defenseman, we need a defenseman who knows how to play defense.
Well, seeing how you keep making this claim ad nauseum, perhaps you could take a moment and provide a link to some film showing him making all these glaring defensive errors.

You do know the NHL has archived film of every goal for the past few years, right?

Why don't you start with the playoffs last year, when he played big minutes against both San Jose and Detroit, posted a respectable +/- of -1 playing against 2 of the best teams in the NHL, and also tallied 6 points in 13 games?

If he is so terrible, you should have no problem linking to examples so we can all take a look at it.

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Old
03-04-2010, 01:12 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Yeah... you said the same bit after Pronger was dealt.

That threw this team back 5 years, and this trade might not be that bad, but it's certainly in the ballpark.
Awesome. Hopefully we keep making these kinds of trades until we end up back in the 80s.

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Old
03-04-2010, 01:13 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Problem is Lubo never was a "hard minute" guy here and he doesn't play the defensive role in Edmonton. I really don't know where this comes from, because since he has been here he doesn't play the PK and he plays the easier minutes, heck Chorney has played harder competiton according to behindthenet's numbers.
You're right, for some reason the coaching staff never seemed to have much faith in him. Maybe that's why he was moved. But I've always been impressed with his play at both ends of the ice. And he was good for the Slovaks too, so I don't think it's just because he was playing the softer minutes.

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03-04-2010, 01:14 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Studly Wonderbomb View Post
- Visnovsky: $1.6m (his 5.6 - Whitney's incoming 4.0)
- Grebeshkov: 3.15
- Staios: 2.7
= $7,450,000

UFAs
- Pisani: 2.5
- Comrie: 1.25
- Strudwick: 0.7
- Johnson: 0.54

= $4,990,000

New Contracts
+ Jagr: 6
+ Volchenkov: 5


Total: $1,440,000


Fixed... You forgot who's running the show in Oil country.

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