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03-04-2010, 01:15 PM
  #101
joestevens29
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Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel View Post
Well, seeing how you keep making this claim ad nauseum, perhaps you could take a moment and provide a link to some film showing him making all these glaring defensive errors.

You do know the NHL has archived film of every goal for the past few years, right?

Why don't you start with the playoffs last year, when he played big minutes against both San Jose and Detroit, posted a respectable +/- of -1 playing against 2 of the best teams in the NHL, and also tallied 6 points in 13 games?

If he is so terrible, you should have no problem linking to examples so we can all take a look at it.
It's probably easier to go on youtube and see Whitney mistakes then it is positives. Generally they don't make a video on d-men out smarting forwards. Defensive plays get no credit unless it is a big hit.

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03-04-2010, 01:17 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel View Post
Well, seeing how you keep making this claim ad nauseum, perhaps you could take a moment and provide a link to some film showing him making all these glaring defensive errors.

You do know the NHL has archived film of every goal for the past few years, right?

Why don't you start with the playoffs last year, when he played big minutes against both San Jose and Detroit, posted a respectable +/- of -1 playing against 2 of the best teams in the NHL, and also tallied 6 points in 13 games?

If he is so terrible, you should have no problem linking to examples so we can all take a look at it.
You should probably ask Ducks or Pens fans, as they are the ones likely to have watched Whitney the most. It could be worse, we could be getting McCabe

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03-04-2010, 01:21 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Who is the rock solid two way d-man? Also did you mean Whitney and a first for Lubo or just the 1st?
Lubo is one of the best twp way d-men in the league--he is not flashy but he is good. HE may not be physical--but he can hold his own under pressure. Whitney will be the new whipping boy on this site for oiler fans. I called him Gilbert light for a reason. IF Whitney is here next year he will be on the 5-6 pairing for the oilers.

I understand the deal--but the fact we took a 4mill contract back and gave up our best d-man for.

There are two things that Whitney does--he logs lots of icetime and can sometimes toss a body check. But he is nowhere near the skill level of Lubo.

3years of whitney vs 3 years of Lubs--I take Lubs 9/10 times.


Ducks also got a special play specialist. the 6th pick added was too low--might be wishfull thinking--but a higher draft pick like a secondwould have made the deal easier to digest

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03-04-2010, 01:22 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Blatherblah View Post
You're right, for some reason the coaching staff never seemed to have much faith in him. Maybe that's why he was moved. But I've always been impressed with his play at both ends of the ice. And he was good for the Slovaks too, so I don't think it's just because he was playing the softer minutes.
I don't want to take anything away from Lubo because I consider him elite offesnively, but his defensive smarts isn't there. Sometimes his speed saves him though.

He must be to you what Cogs is to me. A guy that should get more time and is being mis-used. But I have faith in our coaching staff so I don't compalin too much about it.

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03-04-2010, 01:22 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Hemskyfanboy83 View Post
Just because the team sucks, doesn't mean you make moves for the sake of making them. Should we trade Hemsky for Olesz just because we suck and want to save some cap space?

What happened today is the Oilers traded a player with 3 years left on his contract for another player who has 3 years left on his contract. Visnovsky is clearly gonna be the better player for those 3 years so we don't benefit in that time period. After the contracts are done, both are ufa's so we won't benefit then either.
But Whitney is younger and bigger! Doesn't that count for something?

Great post! I was going to post the same exact thing - but you already had done it!

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03-04-2010, 01:23 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
It's probably easier to go on youtube and see Whitney mistakes then it is positives. Generally they don't make a video on d-men out smarting forwards. Defensive plays get no credit unless it is a big hit.
I'm talking about the complete archive of all goals scored on NHL.com. If Whitney is terrible defensively, there should be film of him getting schooled as the other team scores goal after goal.

The 13 games he played in the playoffs last year would be a great place to start. He must have been annihilated there, given it was the playoffs, he was playing big minutes, and was up against the best players in the game.

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Originally Posted by Blatherblah View Post
You should probably ask Ducks or Pens fans, as they are the ones likely to have watched Whitney the most. It could be worse, we could be getting McCabe
No need. CupofOil has already indicated that he has watched a lot of Whitney, and is therefore an authority on the subject. He has stated very emphatically that Whitney is terrible defensively. Surely, he must have some plays in mind that he can link to so we can see for ourselves.

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03-04-2010, 01:26 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
Lubo is one of the best twp way d-men in the league--he is not flashy but he is good. HE may not be physical--but he can hold his own under pressure. Whitney will be the new whipping boy on this site for oiler fans. I called him Gilbert light for a reason. IF Whitney is here next year he will be on the 5-6 pairing for the oilers.

I understand the deal--but the fact we took a 4mill contract back and gave up our best d-man for.

There are two things that Whitney does--he logs lots of icetime and can sometimes toss a body check. But he is nowhere near the skill level of Lubo.

3years of whitney vs 3 years of Lubs--I take Lubs 9/10 times.


Ducks also got a special play specialist. the 6th pick added was too low--might be wishfull thinking--but a higher draft pick like a secondwould have made the deal easier to digest
I don't think you can say Lubo is one of the best two-way d-men in the league, there are far more better players then him. I can see why fans are frustrated, to tell you the truth I would've expect a bit more for Lubo like a 2nd or 3rd, but I'm not going to be too upset because we did well with Staios.

From what I gather this was the Ducks move, sounds like they made the offer and told edmonton think about it. Oilers thought about it and did it.

All and all it should be a decent move for both, but tough to say after one game.

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03-04-2010, 01:31 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
But Whitney is younger and bigger! Doesn't that count for something?

Great post! I was going to post the same exact thing - but you already had done it!
I don't know some wanted to trade for Mueller who I'm not sure if he is younger, but he is bigger. Thing about bigger guys is it's usually harder to knock them off the puck. Been big doesn't always equal physical edge but it does equal strength, usually.

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03-04-2010, 01:44 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel View Post
Well, seeing how you keep making this claim ad nauseum, perhaps you could take a moment and provide a link to some film showing him making all these glaring defensive errors.

You do know the NHL has archived film of every goal for the past few years, right?

Why don't you start with the playoffs last year, when he played big minutes against both San Jose and Detroit, posted a respectable +/- of -1 playing against 2 of the best teams in the NHL, and also tallied 6 points in 13 games?

If he is so terrible, you should have no problem linking to examples so we can all take a look at it.
I make this claim AD NAUSEAUM because there is a lot of misinformation going around about him, maybe you should ask Anaheim and Piitsburgh fans (you know, people who saw him play every game) about his defensive game and then come back to me because almost every single one of them echos the same sentiment that he is not good to horrible defensively. I've seen a lot of Whitney over the last couple of years and i agree, he is extremely soft defensively and he's poor in defensive zone coverage which is subjective but that's what i see...... what is providing links going to prove? If that's the case, then Souray is one of the worst defensive players in the history of the game if you look at the clip of Spezza undressing him a couple of years back. Seriously, go ask Duck and Pens fans about Whitney's game and you'll see what i mean...... I'm willing to see how he pans out but he'll need to improve his game a good deal to be worth his contract. He is pretty good offensively and has a nice first pass and can also skate pretty well but he's severely lacking the defensive area of his game.

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03-04-2010, 01:47 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
I make this claim AD NAUSEAUM because there is a lot of misinformation going around about him, maybe you should ask Anaheim and Piitsburgh fans (you know, people who saw him play every game) about his defensive game and then come back to me because almost every single one of them echos the same sentiment that he is not good to horrible defensively. I've seen a lot of Whitney over the last couple of years and i agree, he is extremely soft defensively and he's poor in defensive zone coverage...... what is providing links going to prove? If that's the case, then Souray is one of the worst defensive players in the history of the game if you look at the clip of Spezza undressing him a couple of years back. Seriously, go ask Duck and Pens fans about Whitney's game and you'll see what i mean...... I'm willing to see how he pans out but he'll need to improve his game a good deal to be worth his contract. He is pretty good offensively and has a nice first pass and can also skate pretty well but he's severely lacking the defensive area of his game.
Souray might be one of the worse one on one d-men in league history. Quite frankly I'm not sure how someone that skates so poorly backwards ever made the NHL, although I'm guessing once he figured out how to shoot he re-gained himself a career.

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03-04-2010, 01:50 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Souray might be one of the worse one on one d-men in league history. Quite frankly I'm not sure how someone that skates so poorly backwards ever made the NHL, although I'm guessing once he figured out how to shoot he re-gained himself a career.


Overdramatic much?

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03-04-2010, 01:53 PM
  #112
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Ehrhoff came to Vancouver with a reputation for being a disaster offensively. "Ha-ha, enjoy Errorhoff!" said Sharks fans in the know. His horrible plus minus seemed to vindicate their low opinion of him.

Whitney is only 26. He's moving into the prime years for defensemen. He may dramatically improve, he may not. The fact of the matter is, the rebuild is on, and Edmonton is likely 2-3 years away from contending for anything, including the playoffs. And I can guarantee you that Visnovsky isn't going to be doing any improving as he approaches 40.

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03-04-2010, 01:57 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Snowstorm View Post


Overdramatic much?
I don't know Lubo isn't one of the best two-way d-men in the game so I thought it was worthy.

Okay I'll clarify, one of the worse one on one d-men that was making over 4mil.

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03-04-2010, 01:57 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Snowstorm View Post


Overdramatic much?
Honestly, not much worse then the drama about the Vish trade.

I guess everyone has an opinion.

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03-04-2010, 02:01 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
I make this claim AD NAUSEAUM because there is a lot of misinformation going around about him, maybe you should ask Anaheim and Piitsburgh fans (you know, people who saw him play every game) about his defensive game and then come back to me because almost every single one of them echos the same sentiment that he is not good to horrible defensively. I've seen a lot of Whitney over the last couple of years and i agree, he is extremely soft defensively and he's poor in defensive zone coverage which is subjective but that's what i see...... what is providing links going to prove? If that's the case, then Souray is one of the worst defensive players in the history of the game if you look at the clip of Spezza undressing him a couple of years back. Seriously, go ask Duck and Pens fans about Whitney's game and you'll see what i mean...... I'm willing to see how he pans out but he'll need to improve his game a good deal to be worth his contract. He is pretty good offensively and has a nice first pass and can also skate pretty well but he's severely lacking the defensive area of his game.
You could have saved yourself some typing by simply stating that you can't come up with a single example of him getting beaten defensively.

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03-04-2010, 02:03 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel View Post

The 13 games he played in the playoffs last year would be a great place to start. He must have been annihilated there, given it was the playoffs, he was playing big minutes, and was up against the best players in the game.
In the playoffs last year, there were two Anaheim defensemen who played more than 26 minutes per game. Three played between 20 - 22 minutes per game; Whitney was one of these three.

He played 2nd pairing on the PP; he played 5th most minutes killing penalties.

He had a total of 9 shots over the 13 game playoffs...

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03-04-2010, 02:04 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel View Post
You could have saved yourself some typing by simply stating that you can't come up with a single example of him getting beaten defensively.
ASK PENS AND DUCKS FANS FOR PROOF unless they are all wrong too, i don't know that to tell ya, i don't have links showing how bad he is defensively, sorry.

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03-04-2010, 02:09 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
ASK PENS AND DUCKS FANS FOR PROOF unless they are all wrong too, i don't know that to tell ya, i don't have links showing how bad he is defensively, sorry.
WTF?

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03-04-2010, 02:14 PM
  #119
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WTF?
What did i say?

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03-04-2010, 02:18 PM
  #120
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What did i say?
Sorry

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03-04-2010, 02:20 PM
  #121
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Sorry
It was kind of a facetious thing kinda like I can't help you, sorry.


Last edited by CupofOil: 03-04-2010 at 02:26 PM.
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03-04-2010, 02:20 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
In the playoffs last year, there were two Anaheim defensemen who played more than 26 minutes per game. Three played between 20 - 22 minutes per game; Whitney was one of these three.

He played 2nd pairing on the PP; he played 5th most minutes killing penalties.

He had a total of 9 shots over the 13 game playoffs...
.... and would you agree that his "advanced stats" are better than Visnovsky's. That QUALCOMP number showing Visnovsky plays the absolute softest competition is a bit of a problem, no?

Where is the evidence - statistical or otherwise - that Whitney is "terrible" defensively? Particularly when we compare him to Visnovsky.

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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
ASK PENS AND DUCKS FANS FOR PROOF unless they are all wrong too, i don't know that to tell ya, i don't have links showing how bad he is defensively, sorry.
Of course you have links. All of the video is available to everybody. The fact that you can't find anything tells us a bit more about you, than it does Whitney.

I will always take video of a player over the opinion of any fanbase. For example, there are a bunch of dopes on this site who regularly call Gilbert Brule a "smurf". Yet, when I watch him, he appears to be the toughest player (pound for pound) on this team. He's knocked at least 3 players out of games this year - Paul Stastny, Valterri Filppula, and Kyle Chipchura.

I have watched Brule play a couple of hundred times. "Smurf" is the last word I would use to describe him, and no person with any hockey smarts has ever described him that way. Yet, you can find people in our fanbase who do.

What makes Ducks and Pens fans any more reliable?

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03-04-2010, 02:25 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel View Post
.... .



Of course you have links. All of the video is available to everybody. The fact that you can't find anything tells us a bit more about you, than it does Whitney.

I will always take video of a player over the opinion of any fanbase. For example, there are a bunch of dopes on this site who regularly call Gilbert Brule a "smurf". Yet, when I watch him, he appears to be the toughest player (pound for pound) on this team. He's knocked at least 3 players out of games this year - Paul Stastny, Valterri Filppula, and Kyle Chipchura.

I have watched Brule play a couple of hundred times. "Smurf" is the last word I would use to describe him, and no person with any hockey smarts has ever described him that way. Yet, you can find people in our fanbase who do.

What makes Ducks and Pens fans any more reliable?
I know how to find videos man, i don't know what it says about me that i don't feel like finding the footage..... What makes Pens and Ducks fans more reliable? Uh, he played for those teams so they saw him play on a regular basis, i would think that they would know more about the player who played for their team more than most people.
For instance, Oiler fans know that Moreau is a bonehead and takes dumb penalties but most other fans probably don't know that because they don't watch him on a regular basis.

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03-04-2010, 02:50 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
I know how to find videos man, i don't know what it says about me that i don't feel like finding the footage..... What makes Pens and Ducks fans more reliable? Uh, he played for those teams so they saw him play on a regular basis, i would think that they would know more about the player who played for their team more than most people.
For instance, Oiler fans know that Moreau is a bonehead and takes dumb penalties but most other fans probably don't know that because they don't watch him on a regular basis.
Yes, but Oiler fans would also not say how tough Moreau is and how money he would bein the playoffs, same goes for Stiaos.

It will seem like i am just trying to defend Whitney because he is a oiler but truth is I have always liked him. I think there is a phenom known as the whipping boy, and Whitney can't shake that. He had a bad half year in pitts, things were going wrong and every one gave him the Whipping boy treatment. When things go bad people take a short coming and blow it up. Reality is Whitney has struggled in his career with defensive zone awareness, but he has shown the ability to be quite good. The American team did select him after all, there are plenty of other D men they could have taken. He was still taken over Bogosian, Gilbert, Hainsey, liles, Ballard. that is a pretty good list of D men. He can't be all bad.

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03-04-2010, 04:14 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
In the playoffs last year, there were two Anaheim defensemen who played more than 26 minutes per game. Three played between 20 - 22 minutes per game; Whitney was one of these three.

He played 2nd pairing on the PP; he played 5th most minutes killing penalties.

He had a total of 9 shots over the 13 game playoffs...

I think this is slightly misleading, considering those other 'two defencemen' were Pronger and Niedermayer. Obviously the two HOFers will play the most minutes and 1st unit PP. As far as the PK goes, that's probably also to be expected considering he's an offensive defenceman. The fact he kills any penalties at all, and he's doing it more every year, is a bonus imo.



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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
ASK PENS AND DUCKS FANS FOR PROOF unless they are all wrong too, i don't know that to tell ya, i don't have links showing how bad he is defensively, sorry.

The only reason the Pens dropped him is because they were starving for wingers, and they had one of the best offensive Dmen in the NHL in Gonchar. Gonchar has a better shot and produces more pts than just about anyone, so Whitney was redundant. On top of that he got injured, had a brutal season and they had some guys like Letang and Goligoski coming up. They took from a strength to fill a weakness and it won them a Cup in the end, so they're obviously happy.

Do I think Whitney probably made some glaring mistakes that cost them, ala Grebeshkov? Yes. He's not a Lidstrom or Chara. He appears to be average defensively, with above average offence. What I don't like is the MAB comparisons and other nonsense. He's not that bad. If he was anything like MAB he would be playing 13mins/g....just like Bergeron. He wouldn't be playing 24mins/g like Whitney does in reality.

We need to see him for what he is, use his strengths to our advantage (yes, he has strengths!), minimize his weaknesses, perhaps by pairing him with a gritty stay at home guy and using him in the right situations, and let him play his game. If we do that, I think we will be happy. If he can play some avg defence, log some good minutes, and put up 40 pts next year (not out of the realm of possibility on all counts), what do we really have to complain about? How is that not worth 4 million? What are other guys doing at that price-point? I doubt the Oilers are banking on this guy being our franchise Dman on the way to a future Cup run. I still think that has to come from the draft. Whitney could still be a valuable contributor though.

Hey, Lubo was the one guy I wanted to keep too and I was asking for Sbisa and a 1st too....but obviously neither of those were options...so all things considered this isn't the worst trade the Oilers have made.

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