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Old
03-04-2010, 01:17 PM
  #151
Crease
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Every team that has won the Cup since the Salary Cap Era has had MAJOR contributions from young guys on their entry level contract, and at least two guys with around 80 points. That is so crucial for success in the New NHL its not even funny.

2009 Pittsburgh Penguins
Evgeni Malkin: $984,200, 113 points
Jordan Staal: $850,000, 49 points

Sidney Crosby: 103 points

2008 Detroit Red Wings
Jiri Hudler: $880,000, 42 points

Pavel Datsyuk: 97 points
Henrik Zetterberg: 92 points

2007 Anaheim Ducks
Ryan Getzlaf: $881,600, 58 points
Dustin Penner: $450,000, 45 points
Corey Perry: $684,000, 44 points

Teemu Selanne: 94 points
Andy McDonald: 78 points

2006 Carolina Hurricanes
Eric Staal: $942,400, 100 points

Justin Williams: 76 points
Cory Stillman: 76 points

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03-04-2010, 01:19 PM
  #152
vipernsx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Other than the Red Wings and Devils (who every proponent of the rebuild through high draft picks argument acknowledges as exceptions), ALL of those teams have multiple lottery picks, most of them high lottery picks.

Sharks: Joe Thornton, Dany Heatley, Patrick Marleau

Senators: Jason Spezza and Chris Phillips

Coyotes: Ed Jovanovski, Shane Doan

Buffalo Sabres: Connolly, Vanek, Myers
The Rangers have 3 lotter picks on their roster.

...what's the point?

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03-04-2010, 01:22 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
The Rangers have 3 lottery picks on their roster.

...what's the point?
We're paying up the A for them. There's a difference between drafting a lottery pick and having them produce for us while on their entry level contract, versus paying market value for them. You can't buy a team full of elite talent in the Salary Cap Era.

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03-04-2010, 01:25 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Backstrom?
D'oh, forget that one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Who cares that they traded for them? The point is, both are top picks. Not to mention that they got both in incredible ripoffs that are very, very rare.



Was Kopitar a lottery pick? Yes. Again, who cares who was traded for? The point is that these players are top draft picks.



So, basically their entire team.



Yes, so their two best players were both high lottery picks. Thank you for making my point.



This argument isn't relevant to pre-lockout, pre salary cap teams.



Their best player? Lottery pick.



Pronger and Niedermayer - both top picks.



Red Wings and Devils are the exceptions to the rule.



Frankly, every single one of those teams is built on high draft picks. Whether the players were traded for or signed as free agents doesn't change the fact that those teams won because their rosters contained top draft picks.
So, if the Rangers sign Kovalchuk, and keep Jokinen, to go with Gaborik, they'll fit your parameters.

The truth is, there is no set manner. For every Pittsburgh, there are Atlanta, Florida and Columbus. Just like many of the teams you list, the Rangers have two elite talents, Gaborik and Lundqvist. If players like Kreider, Stepan and MDZ fulfill their respective development as players like Getzlaf or Richards or Keith have, you have the potential for similar results.

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03-04-2010, 01:26 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
We're paying up the A for them. There's a difference between drafting a lottery pick and having them produce for us while on their entry level contract, versus paying market value for them. You can't buy a team full of elite talent in the Salary Cap Era.
They all make less then some other lottery picks and starting next season Toews and Kane won't be cheap either. The point is not how much they make, but how well they turn out. Draft order doesn't make a player a star, smart scouting, smart draft and a smart development program has a greater impact then the draft order. This is why the Devils and Wings have been successful and it's something the Rangers have improved on and done well with since the lockout.

Lottery picks who play well, get paid well after their ELC expires. The ELC is only 3 years.


Last edited by vipernsx: 03-04-2010 at 01:32 PM.
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03-04-2010, 01:26 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I don't think there is any timeframe, because we just don't have the talent, whether it's 3 years or 5 years.
ok. I guess I misunderstood you then. The way you phrased it seemed to say that by tanking now we will be a contender in 2-3 years which I don't think is entirely true. Especially since I don't see an Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin in the coming drafts. Though I think Seguin can become a Backstrom.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you b/c I can see our prospects playing real well and getting us there just as easily as I can see them failing. I just think that we are at a major crossroads right now, and tanking now and selling wouldn't do much to help Gabby or Lundy get the cup.


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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
That's why we should have already "tanked" and gotten ourselves a top draft pick. Instead, we're just going to waste the prime of one of the best players this team will ever have.
Ok. But when you want to "tank" you want to make sure you do it when are sure that then next 2-4 drafts will be real good so you capitalize on it. This years draft is good but we won't get top 3. next year is not, and I don't know about 2012 as that is way to far ahead for me. So therefore would it make sense to sell off and get 2-3 top 10 picks? I am not so sure.

Pitt, Chi, and WSH all were horrible at the right seasons. You don't just sell for sellings sake. They (esp Pitt and WSH) got luckiest at the most opportune times. WSH won the lottery and got Ovechkin while Pitt got "stuck" with Malkin. then Pittsburgh got "lucky" and won the lottery to snag Crosby.

I'm pretty sure that if we "tanked" the next 3 years we probably wouldn't end up with anybody of that caliber. So even when "tanking" you still have to be lucky to get the right year. I mean the last 2 times we had top 10 picks both were very weak draft classes, one maybe the worst in the history of the draft.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Trading Jokinen and Prospal would give us more second round picks, which is more chances to land a gem. The possibility of landing a Cammalleri or a Shea Weber or Duncan Keith, just the possibility of getting one of those is worth more to this team in its current situation than the possibility of making the playoffs (and the certainty of not getting very far in them).
I read in a THN blog that the possibility of getting an long term NHL player in the second round is about 15.7%. So it really isn't that great. The chances of nabbing an all-star in the second round probably is half that. Interesting as you can see from both sides. So yes if we traded prospal, and jokinen for second round picks each. then we would have roughly a 47% chance of landing player who plays over 600 games out of those three picks . or we could take our chances in the NHL Playoffs.


For me, the choice would be playoffs since we are right there. But if we were say 5 points back and didn't have a great shot at the PO's. then yes I would definately make the trades.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...he-gamble.html

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03-04-2010, 01:29 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
It's really not just guesswork. That's why some scouts have reputations that are far better than those of some of their peers.

And if you want to examine the cores of dominant teams in this league, just look at the standings. Who are the best teams in the league? Caps, Pens, Hawks, Sharks, Devils, Canucks, Kings...that's more or less right. Now take a look at where the best players on those teams were drafted. Take a look at where the cores of those teams were selected in the draft. Of those seven teams, only the Devils have a team that isn't built on foundation of high draft picks.
I think the word dominant shouldn't appear anywhere near the word Rangers the way things look right now.
technically neither are the sharks... they were built on very shrewd trades. Thornton, Heatly, Boyle. None were drafted by the sharks. granted they were high picks though.

EDIT: wow completely late on this one.


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03-04-2010, 01:31 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Torts Kinda Guy View Post

ps. Sorry for miss spells and spacing, typed this on phone during safety training at work.
I don't know why but I found this hilarious. Hopefully you don't work at a Nuclear power plant.

Supervisor: Ok everyone, this part is important, this is how you shut down the reactor in case of a meltdown. Hey, you in the back on the phone, are you paying attention?

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03-04-2010, 01:36 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
You can't buy a team full of elite talent in the Salary Cap Era.
You can't buy a team during the non-salary cap era either. The Rangers tried and failed miserably at it. Since the cap, building from within has become the necessary and since the Rangers prospect ratings have risen steadily. Since the hand was forced, they've been doing something right.

Who cares how the lesson needed to be learned, there's evidence that it's been learned and not moving a young player, pick, or prospect this deadline for a cheap chance at the playoffs, is evidence that the philosophy has changed to develop from within.

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03-04-2010, 01:37 PM
  #160
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To me, unless someone is a generational talent, draft spot makes very little difference. Sometimes the only difference between a high pick and a low pick is that one can step into the NHL right away or in 1 year rather than some taking 2 or 3 years.

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03-04-2010, 01:39 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
To me, unless someone is a generational talent, draft spot makes very little difference. Sometimes the only difference between a high pick and a low pick is that one can step into the NHL right away or in 1 year rather than some taking 2 or 3 years.
Take a look at the top 20 in goals, assists, and points and where those players were drafted.

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03-04-2010, 01:42 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Frankly, every single one of those teams is built on high draft picks. Whether the players were traded for or signed as free agents doesn't change the fact that those teams won because their rosters contained top draft picks.
So by that rationale, it isn't really necessary for us to have lottery picks in order to obtain the requisite elite, lottery-pick players. Case in point, Marian Gaborik.

It could be argued then that tanking is not necessary, but rather smart trades and free agent acquisitions could be equally as effective.

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03-04-2010, 01:43 PM
  #163
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I like how some people see a difference between Jokinen and Gomez/Redden.
Not a fan of Jokinen or Redden, they were draft 3 and 2 overall.

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03-04-2010, 01:45 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
So by that rationale, it isn't really necessary for us to have lottery picks in order to obtain the requisite elite, lottery-pick players. Case in point, Marian Gaborik.

It could be argued then that tanking is not necessary, but rather smart trades and free agent acquisitions could be equally as effective.
precisely. But the best teams do all three well. As of right now sather only trades well. But his drafting looks to be coming along very very well. Now if he could just make some free agent acquisitions that don't kill the team.

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03-04-2010, 01:47 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
They all make less then some other lottery picks and starting next season Toews and Kane won't be cheap either. The point is not how much they make, but how well they turn out. Draft order doesn't make a player a star, smart scouting, smart draft and a smart development program has a greater impact then the draft order. This is why the Devils and Wings have been successful and it's something the Rangers have improved on and done well with since the lockout.

Lottery picks who play well, get paid well after their ELC expires. The ELC is only 3 years.

But if you look at the teams that have won the Stanley Cup in the Salary Cap Era, they all had guys on their Entry Level Contracts playing critical roles in the top 6. Affording to keep them is a moot point, they've already achieved their goal.

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03-04-2010, 01:47 PM
  #166
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NHL draft blog as part of the ESPN Insider subscription looked at the topic of second rounders in the NHL. From 1996-2006,26% of the 2nd rounders played a full 82 game season with an average of 29 points per season.

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03-04-2010, 01:48 PM
  #167
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Does ANY of this matter before we even have a defense?

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03-04-2010, 01:49 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
So by that rationale, it isn't really necessary for us to have lottery picks in order to obtain the requisite elite, lottery-pick players. Case in point, Marian Gaborik.

It could be argued then that tanking is not necessary, but rather smart trades and free agent acquisitions could be equally as effective.
Trades like Thornton and Heatley are not commonplace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Not a fan of Jokinen or Redden, they were draft 3 and 2 overall.
Let me tell you what a former NHL head coach once told me about Olli Jokinen. This is an exact quote:

"The biggest waste of talent I've seen in my entire career."

There's only one player in the NHL that I dislike more than Olli Jokinen, and that's Scott Gomez.

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03-04-2010, 01:50 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
So by that rationale, it isn't really necessary for us to have lottery picks in order to obtain the requisite elite, lottery-pick players. Case in point, Marian Gaborik.

It could be argued then that tanking is not necessary, but rather smart trades and free agent acquisitions could be equally as effective.
Well, to be fair, if youre lucky enough to draft an elite talent that can come in and be a first line force right away, you'd be paying them at an entry level salary, which makes a huge difference.

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03-04-2010, 01:52 PM
  #170
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Well, to be fair, if youre lucky enough to draft an elite talent that can come in and be a first line force right away, you'd be paying them at an entry level salary, which makes a huge difference.
Bingo.

EVERY. SINGLE. TEAM. that has won the Stanley Cup in the Salary Cap Era had one of these guys. It makes a WORLD OF A DIFFERENCE, because you're saving millions that can go towards another elite talent.

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03-04-2010, 02:06 PM
  #171
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slats made a huge mistake yesterday. he did not have a good day and we will pay for it in the future. we needed to sell whatever we could and improve our draft pick stock and our draft position.

no, he shouldnt have sold young assets for rentals, that was obviously not the play, but by not selling off guys who would seem to have had value he pretty much assured us of mediocrity. and that word is what defines this organization.

there is absolutely no reason why prospal is still on this team today. none. the only reason would be that there were no teams interested and i find that hard to believe. in fact, he should have been vigorously shopped along with joker, rozy and girardi. those were the 4 guys that should have been shopped and should have been moved. even if he needed to sweeten a deal with a prospect to rid us of rozy, he should have done so. all of them could have atleast brought us a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

winning those 2 games before the break and then scoring 4 in the 2nd in ott really messed stuff up. it allowed slats to get back to that "were still in it" mentality and thus, we end up with basically the same squad we had before the break. the same squad that will probably just miss the playoffs and thus assure us of another mid 1st rounder that will inevitably turn into the next "3rd line grinder type" that we seem to always have to many of.

nope, imo, slats skrewed the pooch yesterday and in doing so, we the fans get to be the pooch today.
Posts like this show exactly why the internet is such fail interms of everyone having an opinion but a lot of them being very silly...

You do understand that a trade requires 2 PEOPLE?!?!

Prospal would have been a very appealing piece for a cup contending team but maybe the team decided they didn't want to give up a 1st for him, and Sather wanted a Mid/High first... The reason why trade deadlines look like this is because of salary cap. (Not arguing against it) but it becomes hard to move professional contracts when your looking for certain terms and your hands are tied.

End of story.

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03-04-2010, 02:10 PM
  #172
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Bingo.

EVERY. SINGLE. TEAM. that has won the Stanley Cup in the Salary Cap Era had one of these guys. It makes a WORLD OF A DIFFERENCE, because you're saving millions that can go towards another elite talent.
Unless the Rangers get extraordinary lucky with a mid-first round draft pick, Ive come to the acceptance that they will never be that type of organization.

If we keep developing solid players like Callahan, Dubinsky, Del Zotto, and Staal...and sprinkle the elite talents in via free agency and/or trades, I think we can be just as successful. In other words, I dont think theres a clearcut blueprint in what it takes to construct a cup contending team.

I know theres just one rule. Dont make idiotic decisions with cap space, and Sather has failed at abiding by that rule time and time again.

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03-04-2010, 02:13 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Unless the Rangers get extraordinary lucky with a mid-first round draft pick, Ive come to the acceptance that they will never be that type of organization.

If we keep developing solid players like Callahan, Dubinsky, Del Zotto, and Staal...and sprinkle the elite talents in via free agency and/or trades, I think we can be just as successful. In other words, I dont think theres a clearcut blueprint in what it takes to construct a cup contending team.

I know theres just one rule. Dont make idiotic decisions with cap space, and Sather has failed at abiding by that rule time and time again.
Good post.

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03-04-2010, 02:19 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Unless the Rangers get extraordinary lucky with a mid-first round draft pick, Ive come to the acceptance that they will never be that type of organization.

If we keep developing solid players like Callahan, Dubinsky, Del Zotto, and Staal...and sprinkle the elite talents in via free agency and/or trades, I think we can be just as successful. In other words, I dont think theres a clearcut blueprint in what it takes to construct a cup contending team.

I know theres just one rule. Dont make idiotic decisions with cap space, and Sather has failed at abiding by that rule time and time again.
Actually, it started July 1, 2007. Investing $14.4 million in space for Gomez/Drury had disaster written all over it. The Rangers had been fortunately that they were paying Jagr half his salary, and were only assessed half the cap hit. Ever since, be it double-downing on stupid with the Redden/Rozsival signings, or having to overcome the stupid Kotalik/Brashear signings, he's caused additional problems. I just hope he's not foolish enough to offer Prospal more than a one year deal this off-season.

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03-04-2010, 02:26 PM
  #175
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There's only one player in the NHL that I dislike more than Olli Jokinen, and that's Scott Gomez.
You sound like Pierre McGuire.

C'mon, those too over Bashear, Carcillo, Jarkko Ruutu, or Kaleta?

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