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Jonesie continues his unreadable ways

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Old
03-04-2010, 01:57 PM
  #76
taunting canadian
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The value of a concept can often be evaluated by seeing how it holds up at extremes. Evaluating a trade based only on utility in the current season fails this test. Start with the obvious: trading any player for any draft pick will be considered a "bad hockey trade" according to this criteria. That means the criteria is broken, or this method of evaluating trades is useless.

I doubt that anyone would ever claim that trading Zach Stortini for Toronto's 1st round pick would be a "bad hockey trade". If they don't claim that, then what that tells us is that, even though they may state that a "hockey trade" is evaluated based on the immediate utility of the players, they are really taking other unstated factors into account. Those unstated factors should then be applied to any "hockey trade" evaluation, including 37-year old Staios for a draft pick.

If they do claim that Stortini for a 1st round pick is a "bad hockey trade", then that illustrates the lack of usefulness of that evaluation.

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03-04-2010, 02:01 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Mentallydull View Post
This leadership you speak of has done what for us lately?
Agreed. There has been lots of discussion of the need for a culture change and for the vets to be more accountable etc. This is the start of getting rid of all those '06 guys who were the role players that management sold us as the leadership group and also gave them retarded contracts.

We all know the real leadership group from '06 was Peca, Pronger, Smyth and Roloson.

I never bought it, but apparently lots of fans did. Good riddance for an old and not so good D man.

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:06 PM
  #78
Ramrod
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Stoneman89: I understood that, I asked my question because it seems like you and I are the only ones that seem to understand what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
I dunno about you but last time I checked the NHL is a cap league. So the cap component of this deal has everything to do with hockey.
Read the last bit that you quoted.

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Originally Posted by taunting canadian View Post
If there was no salary cap, trading a 37 year old for pretty much any draft pick is a good long term hockey trade. Note, "hockey trade" should not solely focus on the short term effects, because hockey isn't going to stop this year or next.

Even without a salary cap, this is a good, traditional, asset management trade. The kind that teams out of the playoffs have been making for decades. They've been making those trades for decades because it makes sense for the hockey team, from a long term hockey stand point, with or without a salary cap.
It's a trade for a tweener and a useless pick. The only thing the pick is good for is to move up in the draft.

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:11 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
It's a trade for a tweener and a useless pick. The only thing the pick is good for is to move up in the draft.
It's better than the nothing we would have received if Staios retired as an Oiler or departed as a UFA. And Staios' contributions on the hockey rink this season are also useless to the Oilers, since they're not even trying to win.

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:11 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
Stoneman89: I understood that, I asked my question because it seems like you and I are the only ones that seem to understand what I'm saying.


Read the last bit that you quoted.


It's a trade for a tweener and a useless pick. The only thing the pick is good for is to move up in the draft.
We understand what you are saying, it just has no bearing on anything that matters.

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:17 PM
  #81
Ramrod
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I'm well aware of that, it's just that dummies are completely dismissing Jones' point and calling him out for "roasting the Oilers" for the trade. He wasn't, he simply stated that hockey-wise, Staios is a better defenseman than Johnson and a useless pick but the contract status/cap hit is why the Oilers pulled the trigger.

"Omg I didn't read past first 4 sentences but Jones is making fun of r Oilurz. Make fun of him on msg bords before he hurts r feelings!"

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:21 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
I'm well aware of that, it's just that dummies are completely dismissing Jones' point and calling him out for "roasting the Oilers" for the trade. He wasn't, he simply stated that hockey-wise, Staios is a better defenseman than Johnson and a useless pick but the contract status/cap hit is why the Oilers pulled the trigger.

"Omg I didn't read past first 4 sentences but Jones is making fun of r Oilurz. Make fun of him on msg bords before he hurts r feelings!"
I agree, I felt his article actually complimented The Oilers on their trades over the past week. I'm not sure what the first half of the article was there for. Why is Katz's name even mentioned in this article?

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:21 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
I'm well aware of that, it's just that dummies are completely dismissing Jones' point and calling him out for "roasting the Oilers" for the trade. He wasn't, he simply stated that hockey-wise, Staios is a better defenseman than Johnson and a useless pick but the contract status/cap hit is why the Oilers pulled the trigger.

"Omg I didn't read past first 4 sentences but Jones is making fun of r Oilurz. Make fun of him on msg bords before he hurts r feelings!"
It doesn't take an idiot to realize that Staios is a better player then Johnson and a pick who hasn't been drafted yet. Why even bring that up? A HOCKEY-WISE move is more then what happens on the ice and it was even like that in the pre-cap era.

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:26 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
"Omg I didn't read past first 4 sentences but Jones is making fun of r Oilurz. Make fun of him on msg bords before he hurts r feelings!"
sorry "bro" but that dudes articles are completely useless. rationalize it anyway you want, but does the team need some "funny BLURB" thats tantamount to a blog post? that, ironically, is 1000 times more useless than the trade.

i dont care when he wrote or what he wrote for. the dudes articles are garbage. what is he really "mediating" to the fans?

seriously, he played the proto-nationalist crapola card of "we traded with the enemy."

hurt feelings?
more like wasting peoples time and money.

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:27 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
Prove me otherwise with any post-lockout example. From the top of my head, I can think of about 5 examples of NHL players coming out of the 3rd round since 2005. Steve Mason, Jon Quick, Cal Clutterbuck, Kris Letang and Cody Franson. Out of 150+ picks in the 3rd round since then, I can't say the odds are very good. Two goalies (unpredictable), a fourth liner, a defenseman just breaking into the league and an established top 4 defenseman.
Your entire rationale behind this so called "hockey trade" vs. "regular trade" is non-sensical. You are merely suggesting that the only thing that matters is the here and now. A good "hockey trade" by your standards would involve any exchange of picks and prospects for a legit NHLer. Following your reasoning it would be a good "hockey trade" if the Oilers traded Eberle, and their 1st for Regehr because it makes the Oilers better right now. There's no such thing as a good "hockey trade" without taking into consideration potential, salaries, and contracts. Oh, and TJ Hensick and Kris Russell were also 3rd rounders.

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:29 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
Then I believe everybody on these boards owes Stu MacGregor a handjob.

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:32 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
Why is Katz's name even mentioned in this article?
come on, like you even need to ask that like its a rhetorical question. everyone knows Jones has some borderline psychopathic obsession with the guy since Katz doesnt come to Jones when he "calls him out" in the paper.


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Old
03-04-2010, 02:32 PM
  #88
Ramrod
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You're putting words into my mouth. I didn't say any player for any pick/prospect is a good deal. I took a look at past 3rd rounders and determined that pick will likely amount to nothing. So yes, that is a bad "hockey trade."

Hockey trade as I'm using it doesn't involve cap hits. "Regular trade" as you've termed it does include cap hits. TJ Hensick was thrown on waivers this season, is he even playing in the NHL anymore?

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:36 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
Show me one NHL player to come out of the 3rd round in the past 3 years.
You asked for the stat, you do the work and present it to me please with a reliable source.

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It has everything to do with the elementary math equation. Better player for worse player + pick. Bad hockey trade, could possibly be a good trade depending on other factors
Don't try and change what you said.

Here's exactly what you said and I quote from post # 30.

Quote:
Would you trade Lidstrom for an AHL tweener and a 3rd? He's old and highly paid too.
Of course nobody in their right mind would ever trade Lidstrom for the same package Edmonton got from trading Staios. I cannot believe you even compared the two never mind suggesting they have equal value.

Hypothetically for your sake; yes, if Lidstrom was playing for the Oilers and he had one season left on his contract as Staios did I would trade him for a 1st, a 3rd and perhaps a prospect. This is where I was saying; "changing the variables changes the hypothesis".

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Judging by your logic:

When you prorate Hemsky's 22 games he's better than Zetterberg this season. Straight up at the very least Hemsky and Zetterberg would be lateral trades. The plus side is, Hemsky has a little more size, hell of a lot younger and a smaller salary. When you include the third rounder it makes that much better.
There you go changing the scenario again with yet.. different players.

Lets stay on the subject of Staios being involved in what happened in reality please.

Quote:
I'll put it in simple terms so it doesn't hurt your brain:
- Staios for Johnson + useless pick = bad.
- 2.7M out (with 1 more year on contract) + 0.5M in (expiring deal) = good.
Thats your opinion. I think Johnson for Staios straight up was more than equal.

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The third is just a bonus.
Damn rights it was a bonus. This third pick made it a steal in Edmonton's favor.

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:41 PM
  #90
Ramrod
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You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You're either being stubborn or just plain thick, I'm done with you.

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Old
03-04-2010, 02:45 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedling View Post
Agreed. There has been lots of discussion of the need for a culture change and for the vets to be more accountable etc. This is the start of getting rid of all those '06 guys who were the role players that management sold us as the leadership group and also gave them retarded contracts.

We all know the real leadership group from '06 was Peca, Pronger, Smyth and Roloson.

I never bought it, but apparently lots of fans did. Good riddance for an old and not so good D man.
OT but,
where'd the baffling lack of respect for Jason Smith start? The man was the best leader on the team. He didn't have a good last year with the Oilers but had everything you want in a Captain, only lacking the poster boy quality.


Last edited by Summary: 03-04-2010 at 02:50 PM.
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Old
03-04-2010, 02:45 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You're either being stubborn or just plain thick, I'm done with you.
Are you talking into a mirror?

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Old
03-04-2010, 03:25 PM
  #93
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I'm not going to do them all because I do value my time a little bit.

Current third round players in the NHL
Thomas Greiss (2004)
Patrick Sharp (2001)
Valtteri Filppula (2002)
Johan Franzen (2004)
Your buddy Nicklas Lidstrom (1989)
Kirk Maltby (1992)
Chris Osgood (1991)
Arron Asham (1996)
Mike Comrie (1999)
Sheldon Souray (1994)
Niklas Hagman (1999)
Craig Anderson (2001)
Erik Cole (1998)
Brian Gionta (1998)
Dominic Moore (2000)
Tomas Plekanec (2001)

Fourth round
Torrey Mitchell (2004)
Rob Blake (1988)

Fifth round
Kris Versteeg (1986)
Ray Emery (2001)
Shawn Horcoff (1998)
Joni Pitkanen (2002)

Sixth round
Kent Huskins (1998)
Ryane Clowe (2001)
Brian Campbell (1997)
Pavel Datsyuk (1998)

7th round
Cristobal Huet (2001)
Kyle Brodziak (2003)
Joe Pavelski (2003)
Troy Brouwer (2004)

8th round
Douglas Murray (1999)
Dustin Byfuglien (2003)

9th round
Evgeni Nabokov (1994)
Nikolai Khabibulin (1992)

10th round
Tomas Holmstrom (1994)
Kimmo Timonen (1993)

11th round
Scott Nichol (1993)
Kim Johnsson (1994)

Undrafted
John Madden
Dan Boyle
Brian Rafalski
Jason Williams
Niklas Backstrom
Dustin Penner

Source:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl

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Old
03-04-2010, 03:36 PM
  #94
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Would anybody really be shocked if Johnson is better then Staios? I've never seen Johnson play (or noticed him anyway) but Staios is BRUTAL..

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Old
03-04-2010, 04:03 PM
  #95
Dorian2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
I'm not going to do them all because I do value my time a little bit.

Current third round players in the NHL
Thomas Greiss (2004)
Patrick Sharp (2001)
Valtteri Filppula (2002)
Johan Franzen (2004)
Your buddy Nicklas Lidstrom (1989)
Kirk Maltby (1992)
Chris Osgood (1991)
Arron Asham (1996)
Mike Comrie (1999)
Sheldon Souray (1994)
Niklas Hagman (1999)
Craig Anderson (2001)
Erik Cole (1998)
Brian Gionta (1998)
Dominic Moore (2000)
Tomas Plekanec (2001)

Fourth round
Torrey Mitchell (2004)
Rob Blake (1988)

Fifth round
Kris Versteeg (1986)
Ray Emery (2001)
Shawn Horcoff (1998)
Joni Pitkanen (2002)

Sixth round
Kent Huskins (1998)
Ryane Clowe (2001)
Brian Campbell (1997)
Pavel Datsyuk (1998)

7th round
Cristobal Huet (2001)
Kyle Brodziak (2003)
Joe Pavelski (2003)
Troy Brouwer (2004)

8th round
Douglas Murray (1999)
Dustin Byfuglien (2003)

9th round
Evgeni Nabokov (1994)
Nikolai Khabibulin (1992)

10th round
Tomas Holmstrom (1994)
Kimmo Timonen (1993)

11th round
Scott Nichol (1993)
Kim Johnsson (1994)

Undrafted
John Madden
Dan Boyle
Brian Rafalski
Jason Williams
Niklas Backstrom
Dustin Penner

Source:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl
Thanks for that! I was too lazy to start looking it up. Nice job. There's some pretty good players on the list, I'm sure none who compare to Steve Staios though

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Old
03-04-2010, 05:55 PM
  #96
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People still read newspapers?

pffft. That's the stuff my Grandparents used to read.


There is nothing in this mornings paper that happened TODAY.


Get with the digital age people! Stop supporting biased scrubs like Jones, and read the internet like the rest of the 21st century.



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Old
03-04-2010, 05:58 PM
  #97
hockeyaddict101
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Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
As a hockey trade it was pure genius. I don't give a damn about a stupid made up tradition between two rivalry teams.
Bingo.

To add to your point when two games get meaningful between these two teams. Staios will have long ago celebrated at his retirement party.

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Old
03-04-2010, 05:58 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
People still read newspapers?

pffft. That's the stuff my Grandparents used to read.


There is nothing in this mornings paper that happened TODAY.


Get with the digital age people! Stop supporting biased scrubs like Jones, and read the internet like the rest of the 21st century.


But I read the paper ON the internet.

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Old
03-04-2010, 07:48 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by bOILing point View Post
So, we are to believe that he eats at your place of employment, finishes his dinner, then stands and waits for 1 hr while you hang out in a public washroom.(doing what?) Then the next weekend he comes back and does it again? i guess, seeing as your restaurant is located in WEM and there certainly arent other washrooms available.Oh the fun you must of had in either of your two critical roles in this clever sting.
you either get to be the guy hanging out in the bathroom or you get to be the guy watching his "big fat #$% standing outside the wasroom watching his big angry face prairie dogging it". I hope you recieved employee of the month.
I'm sorry I know most people read the boards for hockey wisdom , and insults are petty and lame because we're all so mature here . But this post is the funniest thing on this board right now . Kudos to you bOILingpoint . I'm still lmao .

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Old
03-04-2010, 09:44 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Summary View Post
OT but,
where'd the baffling lack of respect for Jason Smith start? The man was the best leader on the team. He didn't have a good last year with the Oilers but had everything you want in a Captain, only lacking the poster boy quality.
My bad. Forgot about Gator.

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