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#63: Flyers @ Sabres - March 5, 2010 - 7:30 PM (ET)

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03-06-2010, 09:47 AM
  #451
Jester
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
This was Hartnell's best game in a long while actually. He was completely absent as opposed to being a liability like he usually is.
He was a beast @ Montreal before the break.

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How did Leighton cost us that?? He cocked up once but generally played well throughout. Matt Carle cost us a point with yet another braindead play.
Well, it was 2-2 going into OT because of an absolutely AWFUL, and inexcusable goal. Then, in OT, he spit out one of his brutal rebounds and it cost us.

As far as Carle...you apply pressure to defenseman to cause mistakes, they're going to happen (everyone is going to make 'em here and there). I'm not a huge Carle fan, but that crap happens. There's no explanation for what Leighton did on the first one...and the OT goal was terrible.


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03-06-2010, 10:02 AM
  #452
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
2nd time that Richards wasn't covering his man that led to a game ending goal for the opposition.

Did Leighton give up a rebound? Sure did, that's the goal of shooting low. As a goalie, I echo Mush's comments. Even the best of goalies have trouble directing low shots and that is when it is the responsibility of the defense to clear those rebounds. Richards wasn't even close to being in position.

Putting everything else aside, anytime a goalie stops 31 of 33 shots in regulation he has put his team in a position to win the game. How about getting more than 1 shot on goal on your lone PP opportunity?
At the NHL level, they don't have the consistent problem that Leighton has. Quality NHL starters kicks that out past the immediate danger zone and it doesn't end up in the back of the net. There is a degree of difficulty quotient that you have to meet and Leighton failed it terribly there.

As to the 31-33...not good enough. You're playing against the Sabres (a potential playoff opponent) and they have a goalie that is quite likely to make it necessary to win 2-1, 3-2. You CANNOT giveaway goals to the Sabres, Leighton gave away the first goal, and the rebound in OT was just flat terrible (after doing it all game it finally burned him).

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03-06-2010, 10:03 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
First goal was on Pronger. He has too get that puck, not point Leighton to go get it.


Did not play great, but gave us a shot to win IMO.
Leighton needs to not skate out late, then...and lazily make his way back into the net so that his ass is the perfect bank shot opportunity. At the very least he needs to face Vanek there so he can deflect the shot when it comes...

He didn't. That's on him.

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03-06-2010, 10:06 AM
  #454
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On the first goal against Pronger hung him out to dry. That was a play Leighton should have never been asked to make. That said, once Vanek is in the corner he should've stayed square to Vanek on the way back to his post, and only turned to check the slot once he had it sealed.

I'm not gonna kill him for that mistake, it's not that common for a goalie to have to come back to his post from that far out, especially when the puck is in the corner...sort of a weird situation.

And this "he should've controlled that rebound" talk is hilarious 90% of the time. Most of the people who say it have no idea what its like to play goalie.

A: If you expect your goalie to control the rebound he should have had a chance to get his feet set and be square before the shot gets released. Or if it hits them right in the torso (even if he's moving laterally he should have this).

B: Shots at the feet are more of a crap shoot rebound wise, particularly if the goalie was still moving when the shot was taken.
There's a difference between being a NHL starter, and NOT being a NHL starter for a reason.

It's difficult, and only certain guys are capable of filling that role with any consistency. If you're the opposing team and you watch Leighton for 60 minutes, you see rebound after rebound after rebound in the low slot. So, what are you going to do? Just put the puck on him, you know where it's going to end up 90% of the time.

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03-06-2010, 10:07 AM
  #455
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Well, it was 2-2 going into OT because of an absolutely AWFUL, and inexcusable goal. Then, in OT, he spit out one of his brutal rebounds and it cost us.

As far as Carle...you apply pressure to defenseman to cause mistakes, they're going to happen (everyone is going to make 'em here and there). I'm not a huge Carle fan, but that crap happens. There's no explanation for what Leighton did on the first one...and the OT goal was terrible.
It was also 2-2 going into OT because Leighton made 2 highlight reel saves. If you want to blame the goalie for a bad goal which led to going into OT, fine, but it's a 2 way street.

I agree the OT goal was terrible, but we'll disagree why. You'll point out the rebound, I'll point out Timonen not controlling and clearing the puck when given the chance and the fact that Connelly could have brewed a cup of coffee and had a 2nd cup before Richards got close to him.

I've since read your other posts and we'll just agree to disagree. Anytime your goalie gives up 2 goals in 60 minutes he has put his team in a position to win the game. It's no different than when your pitching staff gives up 2 runs. The offense has to do their job too.

Say what you will, but I'll take the opinion of what the coach had to say about his goalie than those who just look for reasons to dislike him.

"Leights made some big saves when he had to. He bounced back with a real good game. We needed that."

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03-06-2010, 10:10 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
It was also 2-2 going into OT because Leighton made 2 highlight reel saves. If you want to blame the goalie for a bad goal which led to going into OT, fine, but it's a 2 way street.

I agree the OT goal was terrible, but we'll disagree why. You'll point out the rebound, I'll point out Timonen not controlling and clearing the puck when given the chance and the fact that Connelly could have brewed a cup of coffee and had a 2nd cup before Richards got close to him.

Say what you will, but I'll take the opinion of what the coach had to say about his goalie than those who just look for reasons to dislike him.

"Leights made some big saves when he had to. He bounced back with a real good game. We needed that."
What do you expect him to say...? He's not Tortorella and Leighton is his date to the dance. TBH, I'm not sure you'll find a specific quote of Lavy really ripping or criticizing anyone publicly, which is something I like in a HC.

As far as the highlight reel save...you kinda ruin the value of that when you get brutalized for bad goals.

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03-06-2010, 10:18 AM
  #457
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What do you expect him to say...? He's not Tortorella and Leighton is his date to the dance. TBH, I'm not sure you'll find a specific quote of Lavy really ripping or criticizing anyone publicly, which is something I like in a HC.
He didn't have to say anything about it. But he did and the entire announce team agreed that Leighton played a good game.

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Originally Posted by Jester
As far as the highlight reel save...you kinda ruin the value of that when you get brutalized for bad goals.
Maybe in your mind. In mind, those saves preserved a point.

I'll ask you this, if I told you before the game that in 60 minutes Leighton would give up 2 goals and stop 30 of 32, would you have been satisfied with that? I'm sorry, but anytime your goalie gives up 2 goals against a good team I'm satisfied with that result. I will look elsewhere to place the blame, like an offense that couldn't muster anything in its lone PP or a single shot in 2 minutes of OT or a captain that blew his defensive assignment.

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03-06-2010, 10:22 AM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
What do you expect him to say...? He's not Tortorella and Leighton is his date to the dance. TBH, I'm not sure you'll find a specific quote of Lavy really ripping or criticizing anyone publicly, which is something I like in a HC.

As far as the highlight reel save...you kinda ruin the value of that when you get brutalized for bad goals.

This is what drives me nuts with some fans, he made 2 great saves, so that means he is completely off the hook for ****ing up 2 other times and it is everyone else's fault. The defense is going to make mistakes, it is the goalies job to help him out. Teams will be getting 30+ shots every game because they know that is the weakness, lots of shots and get the easy ones.

It think someone said in the GDT that after 1st period, they could not believe Sabres had 15 shots, that's because they were just throwing low % shots on goal cause they knew eventually Leighton would **** up.

And the off. getting 2 goals on Miller is OK by me, you need to beat them 2-1 or 2-0 the way he is playing.

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03-06-2010, 10:25 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
He didn't have to say anything about it. But he did and the entire announce team agreed that Leighton played a good game.



Maybe in your mind. In mind, those saves preserved a point.

I'll ask you this, if I told you before the game that in 60 minutes Leighton would give up 2 goals and stop 30 of 32, would you have been satisfied with that? I'm sorry, but anytime your goalie gives up 2 goals against a good team I'm satisfied with that result. I will look elsewhere to place the blame, like an offense that couldn't muster anything in its lone PP or a single shot in 2 minutes of OT or a captain that blew his defensive assignment.
But if Richie did not score we don't get a point, see your flawed arguments go both ways. It is OK for Richie to **** up cause we would not of got a point with out his goal !!!

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03-06-2010, 10:25 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
He didn't have to say anything about it. But he did and the entire announce team agreed that Leighton played a good game.
I'm sure someone asked him, or was going to ask him what he thought of Leighton tonight...so he could either ignore the question, or give a positive spin.

Positive spin is the obvious choice for the coach if he's not an a**hole.

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Maybe in your mind. In mind, those saves preserved a point.
1st goal was just terrible.
2nd goal was questionable (some have placed the onus on him, I'm not going to...)
3rd goal was terrible.

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I'll ask you this, if I told you before the game that in 60 minutes Leighton would give up 2 goals and stop 30 of 32, would you have been satisfied with that? I'm sorry, but anytime your goalie gives up 2 goals against a good team I'm satisfied with that result. I will look elsewhere to place the blame, like an offense that couldn't muster anything in its lone PP or a single shot in 2 minutes of OT or a captain that blew his defensive assignment.
I'd say you'd have to watch the game...cuz context is important. He gave up one goal in Edmonton and I was furious at him. He could give up 6 goals and I wouldn't be pissed at him if we allowed 12 odd-man rushes.

Captain "blew his assignment" in an OT period we shouldn't have been playing...and his assignment became a problem because Leighton (for the 20th time in that game) made a centering pass off his pad.

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03-06-2010, 10:27 AM
  #461
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This is what drives me nuts with some fans, he made 2 great saves, so that means he is completely off the hook for ****ing up 2 other times and it is everyone else's fault. The defense is going to make mistakes, it is the goalies job to help him out. Teams will be getting 30+ shots every game because they know that is the weakness, lots of shots and get the easy ones.

It think someone said in the GDT that after 1st period, they could not believe Sabres had 15 shots, that's because they were just throwing low % shots on goal cause they knew eventually Leighton would **** up.

And the off. getting 2 goals on Miller is OK by me, you need to beat them 2-1 or 2-0 the way he is playing.
Yep...you have defensemen to cover for forwards mistakes...and goalies to cover for the defense's mistakes (forwards included). So...someone screwed up and there was a chance on net...yes, that's why you have a goalie in the first place.

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03-06-2010, 10:27 AM
  #462
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
He didn't have to say anything about it. But he did and the entire announce team agreed that Leighton played a good game.
Some people react differently to comments. Some step up when they're challenged, others stumble. Some play well when complimented, others get too comfortable and fail. Especially with a goalie's confidence, it's a delicate thing to play. If he plays like ass and the team has to lie and say he played great to keep his confidence up, I'm all for it. It can only do the Flyers more good than bad.

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03-06-2010, 10:32 AM
  #463
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Yep...you have defensemen to cover for forwards mistakes...and goalies to cover for the defense's mistakes (forwards included). So...someone screwed up and there was a chance on net...yes, that's why you have a goalie in the first place.
Essentially. Ignoring the first goal, the last 2 goals could have easily been fixed by the defense. The first one was a fail transition to get the puck out, the second one the defense got caught whacking off and left Connolly wide open alone in front.

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03-06-2010, 10:34 AM
  #464
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Essentially. Ignoring the first goal, the last 2 goals could have easily been fixed by the defense. The first one was a fail transition to get the puck out, the second one the defense got caught whacking off and left Connolly wide open alone in front.
Which is going to happen in 4-on-4 man-to-man defense...just like it did in OT in the gold medal game. You lose track of your man for a second and he's free...

Just like it does in basketball...and that's why you don't play man-to-man when it's 5-on-5.

Of course, the man getting free isn't a problem if Leighton doesn't put the rebound right on his stick.

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03-06-2010, 10:35 AM
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Which is going to happen in 4-on-4 man-to-man defense...just like it did in OT in the gold medal game. You lose track of your man for a second and he's free...

Just like it does in basketball...and that's why you don't play man-to-man when it's 5-on-5.

Of course, the man getting free isn't a problem if Leighton doesn't put the rebound right on his stick.
Yeah, part of that was bad rebound control on Leighton's part. But man on man isn't so hard as long as you figure out when to switch coverage. Apparently they missed that lesson in practice. Because they looked all over the place.

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03-06-2010, 10:38 AM
  #466
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Yeah, part of that was bad rebound control on Leighton's part. But man on man isn't so hard as long as you figure out when to switch coverage. Apparently they missed that lesson in practice. Because they looked all over the place.
You can practice it all you want...guys are going to get free. I have yet to watch ANY sport where man-to-man is being played and the defense keeps the offense covered 100% of the time.

I mean...if it was so easy to do, we'd never have any open WRs in the NFL.

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03-06-2010, 11:07 AM
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You can practice it all you want...guys are going to get free. I have yet to watch ANY sport where man-to-man is being played and the defense keeps the offense covered 100% of the time.

I mean...if it was so easy to do, we'd never have any open WRs in the NFL.
I know that. Just it's knowing who picks up who more than constantly covering them. The 2 defenders looked at each other like "you have him, right?" while Connolly scored the game winner.

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03-06-2010, 11:10 AM
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I'm not gonna put the blame squarely on Leighton, but he has his fair share of the fail cake for that one. That misplay to Vanek was an absolute clusterF between he and Pronger, so they're both on the hook for that one...but come on, Mike. That was the slowest and oddest route - and angle - back to the net ever. Every goalie (should) know that if you have a situation like that, you take one look up to see if he has a pass available, and then you square up to the shooter and get your ass back in the net as soon as you possibly can, and make damn sure he can't bank it off you.

As for the OT goal, the Sabres had a good cycle that broke the defensive coverage off of a broken play, so the D did mess up. But come on; with the game on the line, you CAN NOT kick a rebound into the low slot with a forward right there. Especially when that shot should have been a very, very easy one to simply smother.

Leighton = no Cup, even if that game wasn't all on him.

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03-06-2010, 11:21 AM
  #469
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I don't disagree, but I thought for the most part Leighton has looked very good. There were exactly 3 brain cramps and all three ended in the back of the net.

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03-06-2010, 11:49 AM
  #470
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Leighton made a few big saves but those goals are killers. He's got to be more aware of his position in regards to that thing he's supposed to be keeping the puck out of. I've seen bank goals where it's hard to fault the goalie but come on...that Vanek shot was a floater from the corner. He did what he could on the overtime goal, no fault of his. Rebound control really worries me.

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03-06-2010, 12:04 PM
  #471
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Most people said Leighton played well except for a breakdown here and there (which even top goalies have).

Im enjoying not getting a goalie at the trade deadline. We can now argue about how much Leighton blows for the rest of the season. Yay! Cant wait for the next game.

(And other then the OT goal, which Carle had no idea where his guy was, Leighton played VERY well yesterday. It was even a key to the game "Leighton's bounce back". He also saved our ass a few times last night, so oh well, **** happens.)

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03-06-2010, 12:06 PM
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Most people said Leighton played well except for a breakdown here and there (which even top goalies have).
That's pretty much the book on him at this point, except that's a bit generous. He can make good saves, but some of the goals he's given up are goals NHL goaltenders do not give up.

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03-06-2010, 12:14 PM
  #473
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This may sound dumb but is there anything Leighton can work on or fix to improve his rebound control? This has been my concern since his first game as a Flyer and it really seems that if the D isn't there to knock the puck away it almost always leads to a goal. In a series, I am very uncomfortable with this. I am pretty satisfied with the rest of Leighton's game though.

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03-06-2010, 12:20 PM
  #474
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This may sound dumb but is there anything Leighton can work on or fix to improve his rebound control? This has been my concern since his first game as a Flyer and it really seems that if the D isn't there to knock the puck away it almost always leads to a goal. In a series, I am very uncomfortable with this. I am pretty satisfied with the rest of Leighton's game though.
Coaching and working on technique/positioning can help with some of it.

I personally think his first priority just has to be eliminating bad decisions, specifically when it comes to puck-handling.

I know we can be harsh on him, but there's some talent in there somewhere. The main problem is that he'll be 29 in a couple months, so you have to wonder if he's ever really going to get better. If he was 21 or 22, I'd feel a lot more confident in his ability to eliminate those mistakes from his game.

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03-06-2010, 12:56 PM
  #475
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Most people said Leighton played well except for a breakdown here and there (which even top goalies have).

Im enjoying not getting a goalie at the trade deadline. We can now argue about how much Leighton blows for the rest of the season. Yay! Cant wait for the next game.

(And other then the OT goal, which Carle had no idea where his guy was, Leighton played VERY well yesterday. It was even a key to the game "Leighton's bounce back". He also saved our ass a few times last night, so oh well, **** happens.)
The first goal was brutal. He came out of the net, didn't get to the puck...then didn't move very quickly to get back into the net, didn't face the puck, and had it bounce off his ass and into the net.

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