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3/4 Scott Nichol (UPD: Lapierre suspended 4 games)

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Old
03-09-2010, 12:29 PM
  #101
netman
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Originally Posted by CrazedZooChimp View Post
And what if they score and we fail to win the game? If I'm another teams "pest" I say "well, look at that, if I hit their players one of them will lose control and take a dumb penalty, and my team gets a good chance to score!" In the playoffs I would salivate at the opportunity to do that if I was a 4th line guy (or, gee, a player like Nichol or Ott).
Chimp, I agree completely. Contrary to some other posts, there is no time in the stretch run to the playoffs when two points are "unimportant" or when the risk of losing them is worth the immediate "satisfaction" (if that's what it is) of a brutal response to brutality. The team responded in the best possible way to an atrocious incident: they checked even harder, focused their play even more sharply, and turned the game around and won it. "Take a loss, buddy!" is a lot more effective response to a whole team than "Take a punch, buddy!" to an individual. Hockey is a contact sport to be very sure, but it is not cage fighting and many people would give up on it if it became so.

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03-09-2010, 12:34 PM
  #102
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In the playoffs is a completely different story than in a meaningless regular season game. I think there is more value in creating a reputation and instilling some fear during the regular season than in letting in a goal on the PK here and there. Especially for a team that is going to make the playoffs regardless. If you haven't set that example by the playoffs, then it is too late.

And no, i don't agree with you. Players will not generally sacrifice themselves to a beat down just to earn a PP. Blocking a shot is one thing, letting Douglas Murray destroy you is another. It's a lot easier to draw a penalty than to risk that. Unless the guy doing the running is an enforcer himself, and I'm not sure I can really name an enforcer I am all that concerned with in that regard (dirty hits). I would rather enforce the rule than the exception though regardless.
To your first point, so this game can mean something if we develop a reputation for fighting, but doesn't mean anything if we develop a reputation for coming back and being able to win the game. Am I understanding that correctly? I'm glad that how the team plays in the regular season, unless they're fighting, is meaningless, I'll go take a nap til April. They set the ******* example of being able to come-back in a game after a cheap hit.

Second, you really think Steve Ott, or Scott Nichol, or Ville Nieminnen, never expect to get jumped after they take a dirty (or borderline dirty) run at a player? The whole point of those types of borderline dirty "pest" players is to sacrifice themselves to earn their team powerplays, knock other players out of the game, or take a good player (like Murray or Clowe or Thornton) off the ice for five minutes+ serving fighting, instigating, misconduct, etc. penalties. I would almost be willing to guarantee that if Steve Ott could get Doug Murray or Ryane Clowe to take a penalty and get a misconduct by getting his face punched, while also hitting Marleau in the back, he would do it in a heart beat.

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03-09-2010, 12:56 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by CrazedZooChimp View Post
To your first point, so this game can mean something if we develop a reputation for fighting, but doesn't mean anything if we develop a reputation for coming back and being able to win the game. Am I understanding that correctly? I'm glad that how the team plays in the regular season, unless they're fighting, is meaningless, I'll go take a nap til April. They set the ******* example of being able to come-back in a game after a cheap hit.

Second, you really think Steve Ott, or Scott Nichol, or Ville Nieminnen, never expect to get jumped after they take a dirty (or borderline dirty) run at a player? The whole point of those types of borderline dirty "pest" players is to sacrifice themselves to earn their team powerplays, knock other players out of the game, or take a good player (like Murray or Clowe or Thornton) off the ice for five minutes+ serving fighting, instigating, misconduct, etc. penalties. I would almost be willing to guarantee that if Steve Ott could get Doug Murray or Ryane Clowe to take a penalty and get a misconduct by getting his face punched, while also hitting Marleau in the back, he would do it in a heart beat.
This ^

The reaction was exactly what I would have hoped for. On the contrary, when Michalek got nailed by Torres, the team wilted. They stopped using their speed, size, aggressiveness, and skill and let a clearly inferior Oilers team punk them into submission. If the Sharks of old had reacted the way the new Sharks did against the Habs I think we see teal in the SCF.

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03-09-2010, 01:31 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by CrazedZooChimp View Post
To your first point, so this game can mean something if we develop a reputation for fighting, but doesn't mean anything if we develop a reputation for coming back and being able to win the game. Am I understanding that correctly? I'm glad that how the team plays in the regular season, unless they're fighting, is meaningless, I'll go take a nap til April. They set the ******* example of being able to come-back in a game after a cheap hit.

Second, you really think Steve Ott, or Scott Nichol, or Ville Nieminnen, never expect to get jumped after they take a dirty (or borderline dirty) run at a player? The whole point of those types of borderline dirty "pest" players is to sacrifice themselves to earn their team powerplays, knock other players out of the game, or take a good player (like Murray or Clowe or Thornton) off the ice for five minutes+ serving fighting, instigating, misconduct, etc. penalties. I would almost be willing to guarantee that if Steve Ott could get Doug Murray or Ryane Clowe to take a penalty and get a misconduct by getting his face punched, while also hitting Marleau in the back, he would do it in a heart beat.
Talk about putting words into my mouth.

I did not say the regular season is unimportant in total, just that any given game, especially at this point in the season, is relatively irrelevant. Also, the amount of times we are going to have to 'retaliate' is going to be minuscule in order to make it clear we are not to be run. Of those few games, we won't lose everyone (or potentially ANY of them). So you are talking about maybe 3 or 4 games over the course of the season you take a risk at losing. In return you potentially reduce the amount of injuries to your team (especially serious injuries) and increase your level of intimidation as well (possibly winning you games).

No I do not think Steve Ott, or Nichol, or Avery expect to get run. They might get tackled, or screamed at, but when was the last time you saw Avery, or Ott, take a beating? So no, obviously they don't expect it.

I'm not implying we should fight all the time, or even more often than we do. Just that I think sometimes we should ignore the instigator rule and provide some deterrent to running our players. If the player is willing to fight, then it's not an issue. I'm only talking about when the coward refuses to engage and answer for his dirty play.

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03-09-2010, 04:31 PM
  #105
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No I do not think Steve Ott, or Nichol, or Avery expect to get run. They might get tackled, or screamed at, but when was the last time you saw Avery, or Ott, take a beating? So no, obviously they don't expect it.
Thornton put a significant asswhoopin on Ott two years ago. Ott has not changed and is still a punk. These guys aren't going to change, they know their job is to agitate and then absorb whatever retaliation comes. Take people out and draw stupid penalties. The only way we 'cure' this behavior is with longer, strong discipline from the league.

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03-09-2010, 04:35 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by gafilson View Post
Thornton put a significant asswhoopin on Ott two years ago. Ott has not changed and is still a punk. These guys aren't going to change, they know their job is to agitate and then absorb whatever retaliation comes. Take people out and draw stupid penalties. The only way we 'cure' this behavior is with longer, strong discipline from the league.
That was hardly an ass whoppin, that was a scary face and few swings.

Ott walked away unscathed. See Staubitz vs Tootoo for an ass whoopin clinic.

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03-09-2010, 06:35 PM
  #107
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That was hardly an ass whoppin, that was a scary face and few swings.

Ott walked away unscathed. See Staubitz vs Tootoo for an ass whoopin clinic.
...all you've done there is give me another, even better example. Tootoo is still doing the same crap he always does. A bloodied face isn't going to change these guys. Clowe beat Tootoo's ass in the playoffs a few years ago as well.

Anyway, if that doesn't convince you I guess nothing will and we can simply agree to disagree. I for one was thrilled with the response of the Sharks after the Nichol incident.

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Old
03-09-2010, 06:40 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
That was hardly an ass whoppin, that was a scary face and few swings.

Ott walked away unscathed. See Staubitz vs Tootoo for an ass whoopin clinic.
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Originally Posted by gafilson View Post
...all you've done there is give me another, even better example. Tootoo is still doing the same crap he always does. A bloodied face isn't going to change these guys. Clowe beat Tootoo's ass in the playoffs a few years ago as well.

Anyway, if that doesn't convince you I guess nothing will and we can simply agree to disagree. I for one was thrilled with the response of the Sharks after the Nichol incident.
I'm going to second what gafilson said. You just gave a great example for what I'm saying HB, Tootoo is still a cheap little ***** that everyone hates. And I'm too lazy to look, but I would be shocked if Nichol and Avery haven't been in fights against bigger players before (certainly Nichol, since he's smaller than almost everyone).

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Old
03-09-2010, 06:54 PM
  #109
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HB, I understand your thought process and can largely agree with it but there's a time and a place for it and in the middle of the 3rd down a goal is not the time. As much as you want to send that message, it's not going to be much of a message against Montreal. We don't play them. It doesn't matter if they did or didn't because it isn't sending any message to anyone that actually does matter to us.

This team has to develop good habits and a good habit is to not lose your cool on a cheap shot and give the team that has the lead an opportunity to expand that lead. Good habits is responding to adversity by overcoming it and winning the game. Good habits is responding to physicality, not by going after a punk like Lapierre, but by banging bodies with their best players and make them hurt a little more because of whatever.

All those things the Sharks did after that incident and the reputation they had before was that they'd wilt after something like that. They didn't wilt in any fashion. Teams are more concerned with a team responding the way the Sharks did rather than a response trying to hurt someone.

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Old
03-09-2010, 08:00 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by gafilson View Post
...all you've done there is give me another, even better example. Tootoo is still doing the same crap he always does. A bloodied face isn't going to change these guys. Clowe beat Tootoo's ass in the playoffs a few years ago as well.

Anyway, if that doesn't convince you I guess nothing will and we can simply agree to disagree. I for one was thrilled with the response of the Sharks after the Nichol incident.
That's just it. After Clowe kicked Tootoos ass. Heo stopped running the Sharks. A fist to the face and a serious ass kicking will stop that.

Everyone knows the Sharks are a soft team. run them, use them, abuse them do whatever you want to them, They won't fight back. In a game like hockey, that won't get you too far.

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03-09-2010, 08:11 PM
  #111
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That's just it. After Clowe kicked Tootoos ass. Heo stopped running the Sharks. A fist to the face and a serious ass kicking will stop that.

Everyone knows the Sharks are a soft team. run them, use them, abuse them do whatever you want to them, They won't fight back. In a game like hockey, that won't get you too far.
That's a lie on both accounts. lol

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03-09-2010, 10:57 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by gafilson View Post
...all you've done there is give me another, even better example. Tootoo is still doing the same crap he always does. A bloodied face isn't going to change these guys. Clowe beat Tootoo's ass in the playoffs a few years ago as well.

Anyway, if that doesn't convince you I guess nothing will and we can simply agree to disagree. I for one was thrilled with the response of the Sharks after the Nichol incident.
I didn't say kicking someones ass is going to stop them from bothering OTHER teams, what sense does that make? I said it would make them think twice about doing it to the Sharks. Last game, Tootoo was mostly a non-issue *shrug*. Also Tootoo probably was a bad example simply because he WILL stand up for himself. He's not a coward by any means, and it's the cowards that are the real issue.

Besides that, one beating does not make a reputation. The Shark's would need to consistently make it clear that dirty hockey will be responded to with serious repercussions.

I do agree that doing it in this particular game probably didn't matter. It's too late in the season for that kind of thing, I was just making the point that I am all for self-policing if done correctly.

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03-10-2010, 02:53 PM
  #113
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Can you clarify what exactly it is that someone should do in order to "come to Nichol's defense"? I actually remember both Thornton and Heatley absolutely crushing people through the last 10 minutes of play and everyone was finishing checks hard and playing very gritty. I guess I just don't understand what the desired action is here. Fighting won't solve anything. Cheap shotting is not something I'd ever advocate (except against Corry Perry ).

I thought they responded ideally in all categories. They made Montreal very uncomfortable on the ice with size, aggression, skill, and speed, and used those 4 things to completely take over the game and win.

Did the Sharks end anyone's career? No. But I really don't think that's the goal.
Oh i dunno, maybe go after the guy who crosschecked him from behind and possibly seperated his shoulder?

It's not about this one game or this one incident. Like I said before I just think it's the sign of a bigger problem when the players don't come to the aid of a teammate after a garbage hit like that. And honestly, how many of you would've been upset if Clowe/Murray/whoever had gone over there and handed Lapierre his lunch, even if it meant taking an extra penalty? Not a lot I'm guessing.

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03-10-2010, 03:32 PM
  #114
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Oh i dunno, maybe go after the guy who crosschecked him from behind and possibly seperated his shoulder?

It's not about this one game or this one incident. Like I said before I just think it's the sign of a bigger problem when the players don't come to the aid of a teammate after a garbage hit like that. And honestly, how many of you would've been upset if Clowe/Murray/whoever had gone over there and handed Lapierre his lunch, even if it meant taking an extra penalty? Not a lot I'm guessing.
i would of been, if the sharks ended up losing that game, because the other team scored on the power play.

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03-10-2010, 04:01 PM
  #115
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http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...sce-in-lineup/

Nichol might return against Nashville (otherwise Vesce will be recalled).

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03-10-2010, 04:26 PM
  #116
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http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...sce-in-lineup/

Nichol might return against Nashville (otherwise Vesce will be recalled).
Sweeeeeeet. Does this mean he might end up missing fewer games than Lappy (thanks to this long, tedious break the Sharks are on)?

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03-10-2010, 05:08 PM
  #117
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i would of been, if the sharks ended up losing that game, because the other team scored on the power play.
I'd bet that a week from now you wouldn't care a whole lot about a loss to a non-conference opponent in game 64 of the regular season.

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03-10-2010, 05:09 PM
  #118
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http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...sce-in-lineup/

Nichol might return against Nashville (otherwise Vesce will be recalled).

Wow what a soldier, can't believe he's that close to returning already.

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03-10-2010, 06:58 PM
  #119
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I'd bet that a week from now you wouldn't care a whole lot about a loss to a non-conference opponent in game 64 of the regular season.
remember it more then i would, a meaningless fight

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