HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Ryan Whitney's Right Foot.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-06-2010, 11:58 AM
  #76
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,284
vCash: 7000
I know this may be way out there, but how about we trade our best player for a player that doesnt have a chronic condition that may cause problems or need correction? It sounds a little far fetched I know, but considering how we got burnt not even a year ago with a situation that sounds similar, you would think we would have learned something and applied it to future player acquisitions.

I also seemed to remember the same reaction to the suggestions that Khabibulin's injury history could be problematic. I was one of the ones saying to give him a chance. Now I am more critical of such signings. Others seem to be........well........


I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 12:00 PM
  #77
hockeyaddict101
Registered User
 
hockeyaddict101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 19,904
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I know this may be way out there, but how about we trade our best player for a player that doesnt have a chronic condition that may cause problems or need correction. It sounds a little far fetched I know, but considering how we got burnt not even a year ago with a situation that sounds similar, you would think we would have learned something and applied it to future player acquisitions.

I also seemed to remember the same reaction to the suggestions that Khabibulin's injury history could be problematic. I was one of the ones saying to give him a chance. Now I am more critical of such signings. Others seem to be........well........

At least Khabibulin's was an injury.

This is a minor procedure that normal people walk out of the office with a special sandle.

hockeyaddict101 is online now  
Old
03-06-2010, 12:04 PM
  #78
SlowFreshOil*
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South
Posts: 2,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I know this may be way out there, but how about we trade our best player for a player that doesnt have a chronic condition that may cause problems or need correction? It sounds a little far fetched I know, but considering how we got burnt not even a year ago with a situation that sounds similar, you would think we would have learned something and applied it to future player acquisitions.

I also seemed to remember the same reaction to the suggestions that Khabibulin's injury history could be problematic. I was one of the ones saying to give him a chance. Now I am more critical of such signings. Others seem to be........well........

Come on man. This is TOTALLY different. This isn't a "chronic" problem. It's correctable and completely curable. Back problems aren't hereditary either. This is. And once again completely treatable. Put down the bottle Leahey.

SlowFreshOil* is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 03:39 PM
  #79
CupofOil
Registered User
 
CupofOil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Rock Bottom
Country: United States
Posts: 13,731
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
There is no negative. He was born with the condition, had a procedure on his foot and it is now fine.

May need the procedure on the other foot. Sounds very minor and certainly nothing to worry about. IF it needs doing it will be done in the off-season.

Sorry, I see nothing but chicken little here!
Seriously, are you surprised that some Oiler fans are making mountains out of molehills, this franchise has gone further and further downhill since '06 and everything that could go wrong has gone wrong so i would think that a lot of people including myself are sick of seeing Injury Report being the predominate thread all year, patience has worn thin with a lot of us. Let me run down the list......
Prongergate
Smythgate
Lupul not panning out
Pitkanen not panning out
Injuries
Nylandergate
Offer Sheet then another Offer Sheet
Injuries
No one wants to sign in Edmonton
Heatleygate
MacTgate
Bloated Contracts given to marginal vets
Bloated Contracts given to marginal young players
Young Players don't develop as we expect
Sign a 35 year olf oft injured goalie to a 4 year contract
Trade an underperforming vet (cole) for an underperforming young player (O'Sullivan) who is almost completely lost out there
Injuries
Souray (who could have been traded on deadline day) we're told is out for the year on freaking trade deadline day so we can't trade him

Should i go on??? So i would say that a lot of Oiler fans are downright sick of bad news at this point even though the Whitney corrective procedure thing might be overblown. It's funny because i would consider myself one of those "rational" fans but these last couple of seasons have taken their toll on me and i'm sure a lot of other Oiler fans as well.

CupofOil is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 03:40 PM
  #80
hockeyaddict101
Registered User
 
hockeyaddict101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 19,904
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Seriously, are you surprised that some Oiler fans are making mountains out of molehills, this franchise has gone further and further downhill since '06 and everything that could go wrong has gone wrong so i would think that a lot of people including myself are sick of seeing Injury Report being the predominate thread all year, patience has worn thin with a lot of us. Let me run down the list......
Prongergate
Smythgate
Lupul not panning out
Pitkanen not panning out
Injuries
Nylandergate
Offer Sheet then another Offer Sheet
Injuries
No one wants to sign in Edmonton
Heatleygate
MacTgate
Bloated Contracts given to marginal vets
Bloated Contracts given to marginal young players
Young Players don't develop as we expect
Sign a 35 year olf oft injured goalie to a 4 year contract
Trade an underperforming vet (cole) for an underperforming young player (O'Sullivan) who is almost completely lost out there
Injuries
Souray (who could have been traded on deadline day) we're told is out for the year on freaking trade deadline day so we can't trade him

Should i go on??? So i would say that a lot of Oiler fans are downright sick of bad news at this point even though the Whitney corrective procedure thing might be overblown. It's funny because i would consider myself one of those "rational" fans but these last couple of seasons have taken their toll on me and i'm sure a lot of other Oiler fans as well.
I understand the reaction, but that doesn't mean we should stop using reading comphrehension and common sense.

hockeyaddict101 is online now  
Old
03-06-2010, 03:41 PM
  #81
SlowFreshOil*
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South
Posts: 2,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Seriously, are you surprised that some Oiler fans are making mountains out of molehills, this franchise has gone further and further downhill since '06 and everything that could go wrong has gone wrong so i would think that a lot of people including myself are sick of seeing Injury Report being the predominate thread all year, patience has worn thin with a lot of us. Let me run down the list......
Prongergate
Smythgate
Lupul not panning out
Pitkanen not panning out
Injuries
Nylandergate
Offer Sheet then another Offer Sheet
Injuries
No one wants to sign in Edmonton
Heatleygate
MacTgate
Bloated Contracts given to marginal vets
Bloated Contracts given to marginal young players
Young Players don't develop as we expect
Sign a 35 year olf oft injured goalie to a 4 year contract
Trade an underperforming vet (cole) for an underperforming young player (O'Sullivan) who is almost completely lost out there
Injuries
Souray (who could have been traded on deadline day) we're told is out for the year on freaking trade deadline day so we can't trade him

Should i go on??? So i would say that a lot of Oiler fans are downright sick of bad news at this point even though the Whitney corrective procedure thing might be overblown. It's funny because i would consider myself one of those "rational" fans but these last couple of seasons have taken their toll on me and i'm sure a lot of other Oiler fans as well.
My point is, if they're sick of bad news, stop creating it when it doesn't exist.

SlowFreshOil* is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 03:53 PM
  #82
CupofOil
Registered User
 
CupofOil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Rock Bottom
Country: United States
Posts: 13,731
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowFreshOil View Post
My point is, if they're sick of bad news, stop creating it when it doesn't exist.
The word injury makes us Oiler fans cringe at this point no matter the severity of the situation especially when it's a player who we just traded our best player for.
I'll admit that i overreacted but i just want some good news already. I keep saying to myself "Hall or Seguin as an Oiler, Hall or Seguin as an Oiler" and try to block out all other Oiler news until the draft.

CupofOil is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 04:17 PM
  #83
oh_canuck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
But if you were a "real" journalist wouldn't you go beyond that.

So Brownlee gets this true nugget of information but doesn't bother to dig deeper???

No indication???? What the hell does that mean? Did he ask?

Hopefully a real journalist follows up! I love blogs and the internet but this wouldn't get by in a real newspaper.


Perhaps the Edmonton Sun! This blog is why newspapers and real journalism needs to survive in some form!
There is a reason this guy has been fired from both papers! Now he is just simply one amongst all the internet bloggers that he admittedly despises.

oh_canuck is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 04:20 PM
  #84
AT
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 15
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101
This is a minor procedure that normal people walk out of the office with a special sandle.
Incorrect. This is major surgery. It roughly tries to have bone alignment make up for significant tendon and ligament failure. Despite his optimism, Ryan Whitney likely walks with pain in his feet every single step. The right sounds like it is currently worse than the left. He spent almost 4 months non-weightbearing after the operation on the left, and then another 8 months "learning how to walk and skate again". It is not unusual to suffer pain in the foot for the rest of the patient's life after this surgery, and the first year is the worst. This is not a congenital problem that he was born with. This is a chronic degenerative problem which is irreversible. Keep in mind that when he submitted to this surgery in 2008, there were whispers of a "career-ending" injury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowFreshOil
This isn't a "chronic" problem. It's correctable and completely curable
Incorrect. This problem is not completely correctable with surgery. This is not like a knee or shoulder problem. This is a foot, and the foot/feet will never be the same again. We are foolish to think that Ryan will return to his presurgical performance with the Penguins. The Penguins know it, the Ducks know it, and 27 other GM's probably know it. It seems that Tambellini/Lowe were the only ones in the dark.

I have read posts here for years, but have never felt compelled to write one until today. I agree that there are times when we behave like chicken little. I also agree that there are times when we hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see. In this case, I get the sense that we are suffering from significant confirmation bias which usually happens after we welcome a newcomer to the team. We are looking at his substantial physical dimensions and previous performance along with the novelty of a new player, and we are blinded to what is painfully obvious to almost anyone else in the league. Ryan Whitney suffers from chronic foot pain, and he is likely to get slower, less motivated, and spend more time on the IR as his career progresses. This is one of the worst trades I have ever seen the Oilers make since Gretzky to LA, with the worst part being that it was entirely preventable with a little due diligence. I wonder how much public pressure Lowe and Tambellini were feeling in the war room to get a deal done with only minutes left until the trade deadline. Lowe and Tambellini may have been working with very little knowledge of Ryan Whitney and his ongoing injury issues when they pulled this trigger.

AT is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 04:25 PM
  #85
hockeyaddict101
Registered User
 
hockeyaddict101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 19,904
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AT View Post
Incorrect. This is major surgery. It roughly tries to have bone alignment make up for significant tendon and ligament failure. Despite his optimism, Ryan Whitney likely walks with pain in his feet every single step. The right sounds like it is currently worse than the left. He spent almost 4 months non-weightbearing after the operation on the left, and then another 8 months "learning how to walk and skate again". It is not unusual to suffer pain in the foot for the rest of the patient's life after this surgery, and the first year is the worst. This is not a congenital problem that he was born with. This is a chronic degenerative problem which is irreversible. Keep in mind that when he submitted to this surgery in 2008, there were whispers of a "career-ending" injury.



Incorrect. This problem is not completely correctable with surgery. This is not like a knee or shoulder problem. This is a foot, and the foot/feet will never be the same again. We are foolish to think that Ryan will return to his presurgical performance with the Penguins. The Penguins know it, the Ducks know it, and 27 other GM's probably know it. It seems that Tambellini/Lowe were the only ones in the dark.

I have read posts here for years, but have never felt compelled to write one until today. I agree that there are times when we behave like chicken little. I also agree that there are times when we hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see. In this case, I get the sense that we are suffering from significant confirmation bias which usually happens after we welcome a newcomer to the team. We are looking at his substantial physical dimensions and previous performance along with the novelty of a new player, and we are blinded to what is painfully obvious to almost anyone else in the league. Ryan Whitney suffers from chronic foot pain, and he is likely to get slower, less motivated, and spend more time on the IR as his career progresses. This is one of the worst trades I have ever seen the Oilers make since Gretzky to LA, with the worst part being that it was entirely preventable with a little due diligence. I wonder how much public pressure Lowe and Tambellini were feeling in the war room to get a deal done with only minutes left until the trade deadline. Lowe and Tambellini may have been working with very little knowledge of Ryan Whitney and his ongoing injury issues when they pulled this trigger.
Link? I wanna see prove of this significant tendon and ligament failure that he has.

I posted one earlier which talked about the exact procedure that Brownlee mentioned. Can you provide something to show me that Whitney has significant tendon and ligament failure?

hockeyaddict101 is online now  
Old
03-06-2010, 05:24 PM
  #86
Wickedness*
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ANUS
Posts: 418
vCash: 500
Smytty has nothing to do with any of the injuries.
It is because we lost Laraques, and got Huggy Bear, that is the curse.
And if there is voodoo.. it's from laraques family.. he is haitian.. they are like 20% voodoo down there.

Wickedness* is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 05:24 PM
  #87
SlowFreshOil*
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South
Posts: 2,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AT View Post
Incorrect. This is major surgery. It roughly tries to have bone alignment make up for significant tendon and ligament failure. Despite his optimism, Ryan Whitney likely walks with pain in his feet every single step. The right sounds like it is currently worse than the left. He spent almost 4 months non-weightbearing after the operation on the left, and then another 8 months "learning how to walk and skate again". It is not unusual to suffer pain in the foot for the rest of the patient's life after this surgery, and the first year is the worst. This is not a congenital problem that he was born with. This is a chronic degenerative problem which is irreversible. Keep in mind that when he submitted to this surgery in 2008, there were whispers of a "career-ending" injury.



Incorrect. This problem is not completely correctable with surgery. This is not like a knee or shoulder problem. This is a foot, and the foot/feet will never be the same again. We are foolish to think that Ryan will return to his presurgical performance with the Penguins. The Penguins know it, the Ducks know it, and 27 other GM's probably know it. It seems that Tambellini/Lowe were the only ones in the dark.

I have read posts here for years, but have never felt compelled to write one until today. I agree that there are times when we behave like chicken little. I also agree that there are times when we hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see. In this case, I get the sense that we are suffering from significant confirmation bias which usually happens after we welcome a newcomer to the team. We are looking at his substantial physical dimensions and previous performance along with the novelty of a new player, and we are blinded to what is painfully obvious to almost anyone else in the league. Ryan Whitney suffers from chronic foot pain, and he is likely to get slower, less motivated, and spend more time on the IR as his career progresses. This is one of the worst trades I have ever seen the Oilers make since Gretzky to LA, with the worst part being that it was entirely preventable with a little due diligence. I wonder how much public pressure Lowe and Tambellini were feeling in the war room to get a deal done with only minutes left until the trade deadline. Lowe and Tambellini may have been working with very little knowledge of Ryan Whitney and his ongoing injury issues when they pulled this trigger.
That's funny, Whitney himself said his left foot is completely cured of the ailment. He would know.

And the part in bold shows your post is completely invalid and utterly ridiculous.

If you're unhappy with a perfectly logical trade then come up with an argument, not ********.

SlowFreshOil* is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 05:25 PM
  #88
hockeyaddict101
Registered User
 
hockeyaddict101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 19,904
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowFreshOil View Post
That's funny, Whitney himself said his left foot is completely cured of the ailment. He would know.

And the part in bold shows your post is completely invalid and utterly ridiculous.
He is lying, it is the ultimate conspiracy theory.

hockeyaddict101 is online now  
Old
03-06-2010, 05:27 PM
  #89
SlowFreshOil*
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South
Posts: 2,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
He is lying, it is the ultimate conspiracy theory.
Well played.

SlowFreshOil* is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 05:30 PM
  #90
AT
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 15
vCash: 500
While it is true that most foot surgery is minor, what Ryan has had done is not. He had an osteotomy (ie they sawed his heel bone and cut part of it out.) You don't walk out of the office after having that done just like you don't walk out of the ER after breaking the heel bone in your foot from a fall.

Putting the clues together from the media, it is likely that he has had this done:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11527022

This is not a walk in the park for Whitney, or at least not a walk without pain.

AT is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 05:59 PM
  #91
Seedling
Fan level 7?
 
Seedling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,543
vCash: 50
WTF is our GM doing? Honestly? Why do we trade for and sign players with bad injury histories? I am floored. Souray, Khabbi and now this. I think we should sign Havlat and complete the set. What a joke.

Seedling is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 07:47 PM
  #92
CallMeWalter
 
CallMeWalter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Link? I wanna see prove of this significant tendon and ligament failure that he has.

I posted one earlier which talked about the exact procedure that Brownlee mentioned. Can you provide something to show me that Whitney has significant tendon and ligament failure?
You call for common sense, but use little. The link you provided with the 99 per cent figure includes all kinds of very minor procedures. Look up what an osteotomy, which is what Whitney had to repair the defect in his left foot, and it's clear that surgery is NOT one of the minor procedures.
If he needs the same thing again, he's not going to go skipping out of the doctor's office like you make it sound. If he needs the same surgery on the right foot, it's not 3 to 5 days to recover, it's not 3 to 5 weeks. It's 3-5 months. That's not minor. Look up the stories written about Whitney's first operation.

CallMeWalter is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 07:54 PM
  #93
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,284
vCash: 7000
Quote:
Originally Posted by AT View Post
While it is true that most foot surgery is minor, what Ryan has had done is not. He had an osteotomy (ie they sawed his heel bone and cut part of it out.) You don't walk out of the office after having that done just like you don't walk out of the ER after breaking the heel bone in your foot from a fall.

Putting the clues together from the media, it is likely that he has had this done:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11527022

This is not a walk in the park for Whitney, or at least not a walk without pain.
Thanks for this. Ten months. Sounds about right.

I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 10:17 PM
  #94
nabob
Hall for captain
 
nabob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: HF boards
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,035
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Thanks for this. Ten months. Sounds about right.
more cap space via the LTIR

nabob is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 10:41 PM
  #95
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,284
vCash: 7000
Quote:
Originally Posted by nabob View Post
more cap space via the LTIR
Im sure he will find something (hic) to do.

I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 10:58 PM
  #96
hockeyaddict101
Registered User
 
hockeyaddict101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 19,904
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeWalter View Post
You call for common sense, but use little. The link you provided with the 99 per cent figure includes all kinds of very minor procedures. Look up what an osteotomy, which is what Whitney had to repair the defect in his left foot, and it's clear that surgery is NOT one of the minor procedures.
If he needs the same thing again, he's not going to go skipping out of the doctor's office like you make it sound. If he needs the same surgery on the right foot, it's not 3 to 5 days to recover, it's not 3 to 5 weeks. It's 3-5 months. That's not minor. Look up the stories written about Whitney's first operation.
even if that is the case. The off-season for the oilers will be more than 3 to 5 months. So even if he decides to get surgery and he never mentioned he was going to. He would be ready for next season!

hockeyaddict101 is online now  
Old
03-06-2010, 11:12 PM
  #97
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,284
vCash: 7000
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
even if that is the case. The off-season for the oilers will be more than 3 to 5 months. So even if he decides to get surgery and he never mentioned he was going to. He would be ready for next season!
The question is why in the world would you trade for a player that has such a condition in the first place? Surely we could find other options? Its not like we were forced into it. It just boggles the mind.

I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 11:16 PM
  #98
hockeyaddict101
Registered User
 
hockeyaddict101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 19,904
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
The question is why in the world would you trade for a player that has such a condition in the first place? Surely we could find other options? Its not like we were forced into it. It just boggles the mind.
Because it is not an injury and once he had the procedure on his foot it was fine.

It is not a chronic, re-occuring injury. He was born with it.

hockeyaddict101 is online now  
Old
03-06-2010, 11:28 PM
  #99
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,284
vCash: 7000
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Because it is not an injury and once he had the procedure on his foot it was fine.

It is not a chronic, re-occuring injury. He was born with it.
Maybe you should read AT's post again. Then when youve done that have someone else read it back to you slowly. Then read it again. Then copy it down on a piece of paper and read it again. Slowly.

If you are still having trouble, read the article he provided from a medical journal and look up the definitions of congenital and chronic. Then read AT's post again.


Last edited by I am the Liquor: 03-06-2010 at 11:38 PM.
I am the Liquor is offline  
Old
03-06-2010, 11:47 PM
  #100
CallMeWalter
 
CallMeWalter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Because it is not an injury and once he had the procedure on his foot it was fine.

It is not a chronic, re-occuring injury. He was born with it.
You just described the definition of a chronic condition.
What is it that you're having so much trouble with? You've argued the condition isn't that serious with your 99 per cent bit. That got blown out of the water. You just said it's not chronic because he was born with it, which is the very definition of chronic. You seem to have had trouble with this all the way along.

The story gave an account, with quotes, that Whitney is having trouble with his right foot. Given his history -- he has a condition that led to surgery that kept him out almost half a season despite it being done in August -- how is the possibility of it happening again not worthy of mentioning? Nowhere did the story say surgery is imminent or Whitney's career is in danger or that he'd even miss a single game. As Brownlee said, it's something worth keeping an eye on. No more, no less. It's not that complicated.

CallMeWalter is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:25 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.