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04-28-2004, 07:51 PM
  #1
Janerixon
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Poti's trade value...

Since everyone here seems to debate what poti's trade value is, id love to hear what the consensus is about his value on DRAFT DAY, not the trade deadline, but on draft day

i dont think we could get more than a 3rd round pick for him straight, we might be able to get another d-man, but poti's salary makes him quite unattractive

i think the only way we will be able to deal him is in a package for a pick or picks

im not saying its imperative that we trade him, but him and lundmark are our 2 largest pieces of trade bait, and lundmark id like to have back next year, poti i feel is replaceable with tyutin, kondratiev, pock, and lampman here

so if sather plans on dealing poti what do you think we could get for him?

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04-28-2004, 08:04 PM
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Kubera55
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Honestly, I wouldn't trade Poti unless a block-buster offer was made (Top five pick+).

Next year Poti will be the team's defacto No.1 offensive defenseman. He's going to get a lot of ice-time, a lot of PP time, and he's going to score a lot of points. His trade value will climb accordingly, and the Rangers will be able to get a lot more for him at the deadline when most of his salary is paid off anyways.

Given the inexperienced group of defenseman the Rangers are looking at next year, why rush to judgement on one of the few proven commodities that they have?

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04-28-2004, 08:36 PM
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Poti can definitely fetch a 2nd, IMO.

I also think Our TOR 1st, Poti and maybe a 5th or 6th can get us from the mid 20's to 16 or 17 or so.

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04-28-2004, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
Given the inexperienced group of defenseman the Rangers are looking at next year, why rush to judgement on one of the few proven commodities that they have?
kubera
i agree there should be no rush to trade poti, however im not sather and we know he will look to move up in the draft if there is a player he wants and feels he needs to get. poti and lundmark are those 2 guys he can use to make a deal. as far as proven i have to disagree a bit on that, he is in fact an nhl defensemen with offensive capability, a 3-4 guy on a good team a 1-2 guy here, but proven? he hasnt proven much, hes gotten better defensively but he still lack consistency and he seems to get injured quite a bit, he missed a ton of time at the end of the year with back spasm, so how proven is he? can we count on him down the stretch? all these questions have no answers, if we are going to rebuild, why not put together a core of 4-5 guys that we can keep together for more than 3-4 years? if the right trade comes along ill make it, if not we will see what poti can bring to this team next year

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04-28-2004, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draft Guru
Poti can definitely fetch a 2nd, IMO.

I also think Our TOR 1st, Poti and maybe a 5th or 6th can get us from the mid 20's to 16 or 17 or so.
hey if thats all it takes to move up and radulov or somone else drops to that range, sign me up!

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04-28-2004, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janerixon
hey if thats all it takes to move up and radulov or somone else drops to that range, sign me up!
I would take a bag of Pucks for Tom Poti. What makes you think another team wants him. He is such a defensive liability, whatever he brings to the table offensively is washed out.

I would buy Poti out if I were Sather.

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04-28-2004, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by free0717
I would take a bag of Pucks for Tom Poti. What makes you think another team wants him. He is such a defensive liability, whatever he brings to the table offensively is washed out.

I would buy Poti out if I were Sather.

i totally agree!! i can't stand the way he plays the game. he would've been gone way before leetch. if sather is smart i would get rid of this liability as soon as possible.

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04-28-2004, 10:07 PM
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Poti's trade value at the draft really depends on how much money Sather would be willing to eat. He's due to make $3.1 million next season. Other than Sather himself, I dont think theres any GM in the league who would be dumb enough to take Poti and his contract off our hands for nothing, let alone give up a 2nd round pick in the process. With the uncertainty of the lockout situation, why would any team give up anything worthwhile for a headache like Poti and then have to pay him even if no games are played? The only way Poti is getting traded is if Sather is willing to eat some of his contract. If you want to get anything good back for him, you'll have to pay a large portion of it. And even then, I think its doubtful you'd find a sucker to give you a 2nd round pick. So essentially, you'd be paying upwards to $3 million for a 2nd round pick and Poti's riddance. Bad deal if you asked me.

I agree with Kubera. If a good deal comes a long, deal him. But I'd much rather hold on to him, give him one last chance to prove himself, try to raise his trade value and then trade him to a contender at the deadline. He just has no value at this point.

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04-28-2004, 10:51 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
Honestly, I wouldn't trade Poti unless a block-buster offer was made (Top five pick+).

Next year Poti will be the team's defacto No.1 offensive defenseman. He's going to get a lot of ice-time, a lot of PP time, and he's going to score a lot of points. His trade value will climb accordingly, and the Rangers will be able to get a lot more for him at the deadline when most of his salary is paid off anyways.

Given the inexperienced group of defenseman the Rangers are looking at next year, why rush to judgement on one of the few proven commodities that they have?

If you are keeping Poti because he is the defacto #1 offensive defenseman that is all the more reason to trade him IMO. Pock and Rachunek can provide the offense that they won't have without Poti although that is not a hell of a lot as Poti had a whopping 14 assists (although offensive defenseman finish the year with more than 14 assists.

You consider Poti to be a "proven commodity." I agree. Poti has had plenty of time to prove that he will score a lot of points. And he hasn't. He has also been a minus player for the last five seasons. Kevin Lowe couldn't get him to play defense. Craig MacTavish couldn't get him to play defense. Glen Sather couldn't get him to play defense. Is he really going to change now? Of course not.

Throw in a hefty price tag and Poti is more or less unmovable. Especially since that at this point, his defense is far worse than his offense is good.

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04-28-2004, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr4life5186
Poti's trade value at the draft really depends on how much money Sather would be willing to eat. He's due to make $3.1 million next season. Other than Sather himself, I dont think theres any GM in the league who would be dumb enough to take Poti and his contract off our hands for nothing, let alone give up a 2nd round pick in the process. With the uncertainty of the lockout situation, why would any team give up anything worthwhile for a headache like Poti and then have to pay him even if no games are played? The only way Poti is getting traded is if Sather is willing to eat some of his contract. If you want to get anything good back for him, you'll have to pay a large portion of it. And even then, I think its doubtful you'd find a sucker to give you a 2nd round pick. So essentially, you'd be paying upwards to $3 million for a 2nd round pick and Poti's riddance. Bad deal if you asked me.

I agree with Kubera. If a good deal comes a long, deal him. But I'd much rather hold on to him, give him one last chance to prove himself, try to raise his trade value and then trade him to a contender at the deadline. He just has no value at this point.

One dman id like to get is Dan Boyle. He is small but a good pp dman. He is more physical than Poti even though that is not saying much. And to think Florida Panthers traded Dan Boyle to the Tampa Bay Lightning for justa 5th round selection (Martin Tuma) in 2003....and Sather trades alot for Tom Poti Sather got taken for a fool. :lol

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04-29-2004, 07:20 AM
  #11
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Poti had a disapointing season, but let's not blow it out of proportion. He played with a bad back for an unknown portion of it, and he lost a huge chunk of his PP time to the inept Alex Kovalev.

Should he have still scored more? Sure. But he still picked up 10 goals, 4-5 PP goals, 4-5 game winning goals, etc. Those are valuable, very, very valuable. And while everyone screams bloody murder about his defense, there are plenty of teams that coach around offense first defensemen with personel matching and creativity. The Rangers do neither. What would Poti's +/- look like if he had been paired with a stay-at-home defenseman and if he'd been protected from facing top scoring lines? (instead of being thrown out there with a gambling Brian Leetch against all comers for 24 minutes a night).

As for proven, Poti is it. Pock has 6 NHL games, and Tjutin 25. While I love the upside and talent the youngsters brought, it would be folly to simply hand over the keys to the PP to them and expect it to work out. Both of them would have to have a 'Zidlicky like' freshman season for the Rangers to have a PP that isn't bottom five in the league, and Zidlicky is even worse on defense than Poti is.

I prefer, again, to keep Poti. If Pock or Tjutin are that good, they'll prove it during the season and Poti will be that much more expendable at the deadline. But I've watched too many Sergie Zubov's, Matteau Schneider's, and Kim Johnson's find useful lives post NYR for me to hand Poti off for nothing. Be patient people.

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04-29-2004, 08:06 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
Poti had a disapointing season, but let's not blow it out of proportion. He played with a bad back for an unknown portion of it, and he lost a huge chunk of his PP time to the inept Alex Kovalev.

Should he have still scored more? Sure. But he still picked up 10 goals, 4-5 PP goals, 4-5 game winning goals, etc. Those are valuable, very, very valuable. And while everyone screams bloody murder about his defense, there are plenty of teams that coach around offense first defensemen with personel matching and creativity. The Rangers do neither. What would Poti's +/- look like if he had been paired with a stay-at-home defenseman and if he'd been protected from facing top scoring lines? (instead of being thrown out there with a gambling Brian Leetch against all comers for 24 minutes a night).

As for proven, Poti is it. Pock has 6 NHL games, and Tjutin 25. While I love the upside and talent the youngsters brought, it would be folly to simply hand over the keys to the PP to them and expect it to work out. Both of them would have to have a 'Zidlicky like' freshman season for the Rangers to have a PP that isn't bottom five in the league, and Zidlicky is even worse on defense than Poti is.

I prefer, again, to keep Poti. If Pock or Tjutin are that good, they'll prove it during the season and Poti will be that much more expendable at the deadline. But I've watched too many Sergie Zubov's, Matteau Schneider's, and Kim Johnson's find useful lives post NYR for me to hand Poti off for nothing. Be patient people.
Poti might have lost powerplay time but he still had 4 pp assists. So how can an offensive defenseman only register 10 even strength assists? And I'm not sold on him being a PP QB. He relied way too much on Brian Leetch for that.

Defensively he simply can't be excused or defended for his play. His partner has nothing to do with the fact that Poti would rather be hit than hit. His partner has nothing to do with the fact that Poti's unwillingness to take the bod results in two or three scoring opportunities for the opposition in the Rangers zone. His partner has nothing to do with the fact that Poti relies on the stick check and if he misses that too results in a scoring opportunity. His partner has nothing to do with the fact that Poti actually slows down to avoid hitting opposing forwards. His partner has nothing to do with the fact that Poti is clueless in his own zone.

Again, if you want to consider Poti to be a proven offensive defenseman lets take a look at some comparisons:

Poti averages 31 points a season (8 goals, 23 assists)

Eric Desjardin averages 34 points a season (8 goals, 26 assists)

Janne Niinimaa averages 38 points a season (6 goals 32 assists)

Roman Hamrlik averages 37 points a season (10 goals 27 assists)

Dan McGilllis averages 29 points a game (7 goals and 22 assists)


These are hardly widely regarded top offensive defensemen and they all beat Poti except for the offensive dynamo Dan McGillis.

Sergie Zubov, Matthieu Scneider, and Kim Johnson all played defense. A team has already given up on Poti. There was a reason for that.

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04-29-2004, 08:13 AM
  #13
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Poti is a guy I can trade or not. The key is value.

IMO, if Poti isn't worth low first round pick by himself, we're better off keeping him. I think many people undervalue Poti and overvalue draft picks. With a second round pick, you hope to get someone who eventually makes it to the NHL. With Poti, you have an NHL player, and a reasonably young one at that.

Sure, he's overpaid. Sure, he doesn't hold up in the defensive end. But he brings an element that few defensemen bring. I agree with the poster who said that the key is to use personnel to coach around his liabilities while maximizing his strength.

Personally, I think that if we ate some of his salary, Tom Poti would probably get us a draft pick in the middle of the first round. I would be happy with that, or I'd be happy with a pick between 20 and 25. If he doesn't bring that kind of return, then keep him and try to rehabilitate him.

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04-29-2004, 08:30 AM
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If you guys think Poti is bad, watch how Karel Rahunek plays night in and night out.

Yikes!

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04-29-2004, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazo
If you guys think Poti is bad, watch how Karel Rahunek plays night in and night out.

Yikes!
i agree if Martin is the coach of the rangers rachunek and poti will not be on this team

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04-29-2004, 08:54 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazo
If you guys think Poti is bad, watch how Karel Rahunek plays night in and night out.
The ONLY reason that I put more stock into Rachunek is becuase he is a little younger and has shown more of a willingness to use his body. He is not nearly as scared of contact as Porta is. But the point that I have been making ever since the Rachunek trade is that NO TEAM can afford to have the both of them in the starting lineup at the same time. Imagine if a team like the Ducks were to start Ozo and an Ozo clone at the same time. Talk about Yikes!

It is pretty well known that I am no Poti fan. I was willing to give him every benefit of the doubt after the Yorkie trade. I was even one of those who used the "Rangers got the more talented player, but not as harder worker" excuse. However, Poti has done nothing to validate my early support. As Singin' said, Lowe could not get him to play D, neither could MacT, neither could Trotts, neither could Sather and neither could Renney. At this point in time, I laugh at those saying that he needs a little more time. Come on, he's played 6 full years and has gotten worse defensively every single one. I hate the +/- stat, as it does not prove a thing, however it CAN be used as an indicator. His +/- has worsened every single year. Sorry, he improved this year. His ratings have gone in this fashion:+10, +8, -4, -10, -6, -1. Overall, I'd say that this is a disturbing trend.
Plus what I really HATE about him is his attitude. I posted an article earlier in the year where Poti tried to say that he should be held to a different defensive standard becuase he is an "offensive guy". He said since the "defensive guys" are not held to a high standard scoring-wise, that he should not be held to the normal defensive standard since he is an "offensive guy".
That was a really disturbing statement. He is breaking up players into "offensive" and "defensive" guys. Wanting not to be held accountable for not clearing the puck or causing a turnover just because he is an "offensive" guy is pretty scary.
Now, having said all of that, I do not believe that we should trade him for an old jock strap. While I DO think that our defensive play improves by the simple subtraction of Porta, I also think that it is highly possible that he MAY have just a little more value (due to his still young age and offensive prowers at times) than my tained mind is seeing. But it is also a catch-22, as I think that entering a season with both him and Rachunek in the top 6 is a sure-fire recipe for a defensive disaster. I cannot believe that he has any value at all right now, however, IF you are entering the next season with a very young squad in hopes of securing a lottery pick for Crosby, then having Poti on your team is not a bad thing as it lends itself to more losses than wins. However, if you are serious about next years' team (for whatever the reason) than you can't have those 2 so-called defensemen in your top 6 at the same time.

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04-29-2004, 09:40 AM
  #17
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Simple answer Singin'...

there wasn't much finishing going on. Can't get an assist when players are finishing. Further, you're not going to get too many assists being Leetch's partner. Too often you need to hang back and be that safety valve (I know, Poti a safety valve, whatever, right, but that's how it was set in that system). Further, you're not the guy bringing up the puck either, so you lose out there, too. I actually would not have difficulty with Poti being on the blueline if he was paired with a competent partner. I think he's a better puckhandler than Rachunek and a better skater. I thought that after Leetch left, Poti was a much better player. I think he's similar to Kovalev in a way. The rest of his game gets better if he's more involved, meaning, if he's carrying the puck all the time, pinching in more often, etc., it keeps him involved and there are less lapses. Like Kovalev - who sucked with Nedved (who often carried the puck). Kovalev's best when he's carrying the puck and playing tons. His awareness improves. Same with Poti, in my opinion. If Poti cannot translate into a good commodity trade-wise, I have no problem keeping him and playing him with Kaspar or another defenseman.

And TB...I don't think Rachunek uses the body any more effectively than Poti. I'm willing to bet that we see Poti bounce back and look like the Poti we saw in the first 1/3 of last season - one that did take the body more regularly. I don't know why I think that though - it's just a hunch and I'm going on on a limb - a real shaky limb and my increasing weight may not be able to hold me.

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04-29-2004, 09:47 AM
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Ultimately, his trade value couldn't be lower than right now...he had a terrible year on a team that couldn't put it together. Give him a year. Get him a bit more comfortable with some system...then offer him up.

He does still have some considerable upside but the value of that is diminishing quickly.

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04-29-2004, 10:09 AM
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You're not going to get much for Poti at all right now because of his salary and lack of production. One thing to keep in mind, the Rangers were HORRIBLE last year. Everyone's stats were down on this team. As Fletch said, if the team as a whole is not producing, you can't expect high points from one of our defensemen.

If we can get rid of Poti in a reasonable deal, go for it. I wouldn't trade him for a draft pick this year because of the draft being "thin." Perhaps in a package we might get something decent.

It's a rebuilding year and unless we play like the Caps this past year, if there is a season, I can only see us playing a bit better as a whole. Keep Poti, let him improve on this past year and increase his trade value. If the youngsters show more promise as they have, then trade him at the deadline.

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04-29-2004, 10:13 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
there wasn't much finishing going on. Can't get an assist when players are finishing. Further, you're not going to get too many assists being Leetch's partner. Too often you need to hang back and be that safety valve (I know, Poti a safety valve, whatever, right, but that's how it was set in that system). Further, you're not the guy bringing up the puck either, so you lose out there, too. I actually would not have difficulty with Poti being on the blueline if he was paired with a competent partner. I think he's a better puckhandler than Rachunek and a better skater. I thought that after Leetch left, Poti was a much better player. I think he's similar to Kovalev in a way. The rest of his game gets better if he's more involved, meaning, if he's carrying the puck all the time, pinching in more often, etc., it keeps him involved and there are less lapses. Like Kovalev - who sucked with Nedved (who often carried the puck). Kovalev's best when he's carrying the puck and playing tons. His awareness improves. Same with Poti, in my opinion. If Poti cannot translate into a good commodity trade-wise, I have no problem keeping him and playing him with Kaspar or another defenseman.
And I simply don't buy the idea that playing with Leetch caused Poti's numbers to go down. By shear luck and averages he should have racked up 14 secondary assists playing first pair minutes.

To your point about guys not finishing. I don't recall too many times when we said, "Boy so and so needs to finish that great pass from Poti". Somehow guys finished enough for Jan Hlavac to record 21 assists. Same goes for Malakohv's 15, Mironov's 13 and deVries' 12. Hell Kasparaitis had 9 assits in 28 fewer games and Bouchard had 7 assists in 44 fewer games. So who is finishing for these guys?

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04-29-2004, 10:13 AM
  #21
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'Blues, I don't see your point. I didn't say we was a premier scoring dman, I said he was the best the Rangers have right now. Do you honestly disagree with that statement?

As for his defense, I'm not getting into that debate. I've had it too many times. I will simply make the observation that the worst excuse for a defenseman in the NHL somehow managed to play on a bottom five worst defensive team in hockey for 24 minutes a night for 67 games last season, and was only a minus 1. Was he on for a lot of PK goals against? I'm sure he was. But somewhere along the line he must have managed to do something right, because, as so many point out, he 'only' scored 24 points (and not all of the EV).

Regardless of the ongoing Poti debate, of which you'll notice I'm not getting into, the fact remains as Graves says: His value can only go up.

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04-29-2004, 10:19 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
'Blues, I don't see your point. I didn't say we was a premier scoring dman, I said he was the best the Rangers have right now. Do you honestly disagree with that statement?

As for his defense, I'm not getting into that debate. I've had it too many times. I will simply make the observation that the worst excuse for a defenseman in the NHL somehow managed to play on a bottom five worst defensive team in hockey for 24 minutes a night for 67 games last season, and was only a minus 1. Was he on for a lot of PK goals against? I'm sure he was. But somewhere along the line he must have managed to do something right, because, as so many point out, he 'only' scored 24 points (and not all of the EV).

Regardless of the ongoing Poti debate, of which you'll notice I'm not getting into, the fact remains as Graves says: His value can only go up.

Is he the best the Rangers have? I guess. I would not be shocked to see Poti be outscored by both Rachunek and Tyutin next season.

His defense is simply inexcusable. He has been a minus player each of the last 5 seasons. And whether or not he was on the ice for pk goals is irrelevant as +/- does not count PP and PK goals

What I'm talking about is you referring to him as a proven commodity. Yes he's proven but it not a great commodity. And to say that he will score a lot of points next season is a sentiment that is by no means a lock.

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04-29-2004, 11:22 AM
  #23
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Not sure if I buy the secondary assist argument...

considering that would mean Beukeboom should've had a bunch more assists than he did have. You know, we're going to get nowhere on this, I think. I personally do not think he's as bad as everybody says. I don't think he's great or anything and wouldn't want him on my team's top pairing going against top lines, but as a top 4, and paired with a decent defenseman, I'm fine. If he can be moved, along with a #2, and nothing more, to get that decent defenseman (not a top defenseman, but a decent defensive defenseman who's not yet 30) and who can than play with Rachunek or Tyutin, I'd be happy. To merely dump him for scrap, in my opinion, is not the way to go.

On another note, SBOB, Leetch has been a minus player in 6 of the last 7 seasons. 'Nuff said in regards to +/-.

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04-29-2004, 11:42 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
Regardless of the ongoing Poti debate, of which you'll notice I'm not getting into, the fact remains as Graves says: His value can only go up.
Not necessarily. For example, some GM's & coaches out there may think as some people here do. That he just had a poor year, bad system, playing with Leetch, not having a defensive partner. They may see these are legitamite reasons. They MAY be willing to give some value based on these factors (why I would never know) However, if Poti comes back to the Rangers next year and has the same abysmal year, then trading him for anything other than the rights to Dave Babych will be even more diffucult next year.

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04-29-2004, 01:20 PM
  #25
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Location: NJ
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How about we send him back to Edmonton for York.......

Sather Hater is offline  
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