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The Power Play and Marc-André Bergeron

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Old
03-07-2010, 01:02 PM
  #1
Kjell Dahlin
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The Power Play and Marc-André Bergeron

Because of our subpar even strength play (a result of: undersized forwards squad, team’s system, injuries…), the importance of the PP in Montreal is, imo, amplified/magnified. We need, more than anyone else, a PP that is firing on all cylinders.


Based on the last few seasons, this PP seems to be going nowhere without a guy like Souray, Streit, Schneider or Bergeron, to play alongside Markov at the point.

POWER PLAY POINTS – 2006-07 - Souray

POWER PLAY POINTS – 2007-08 - Streit

POWER PLAY POINTS – 2008-09 – Schneider (23GP!)

POWER PLAY POINTS – 2009-10 – Bergeron (51GP)

2009-10 Montreal Canadiens; PP
Power Play Goals (PPG) : 49
Power Play Opportunities (PP Opp): 202
Power Play % (PP%): 24,3 (2nd overall)

With Bergeron
PPG: 40
PP Opp: 147
PP%: 27,7 (would be good for 1st overall)

Without Bergeron
PPG: 9
PP Opp: 55
PP%: 16,4 (would be “good” for 25th overall)

Right now, this team needs Bergeron imo. Heck… even in 2010-11, as the #6/7D and/or #12/13F, I would go with Bergeron instead of Weber... if Bergeron’s asking price is lower than 1,5M$ per season.

Just to jump start the discussion, here are a few questions (feel free to ignore them!)…

Are you concerned by our lack of PP input when Bergeron is not in the line-up?
Anyone has an update regarding his injury?
Would you consider re-signing him in 2010-11 as the #6/7D and/or #12/13F?
Defensively (as a D), who is better: Bergeron, Mara or Weber?
In 2009-10, what would be our optimal PP quintets?
(…)

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03-07-2010, 01:08 PM
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3hirty6ix
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The answer is Subban.

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03-07-2010, 01:11 PM
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CrAzYNiNe
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We need to find someone else. We our undersized, ever more important to have real 4th liners that are willing to bang, Bergeron can't handle that. On D, even worse, he has no physicality in his game and seems week on his skates (he falls often enough to notice without anyone toughing him, and is easily moved out of the way when on D)

As much as his PP play helps, other solutions need to be found, if nothing works, and i mean NOTHING, maybe, i mean MAYBE give him another chance next year. I really hope Subban can take his spot next to Markov on the point, has the right shot to play opposite to Markov, and then Hammer and Spacek(sigh can't believe this disappointment with him on the PP this year)

Bergeron should be done as a hab after this season, especially with the cap right at our throat.

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03-07-2010, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3hirty6ix View Post
The answer is Subban.
the answer is clearly spacek.

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03-07-2010, 01:13 PM
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Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3hirty6ix View Post
The answer is Subban.
I am a huge fan of Subban (he is already one of our top6 Ds imo) but does he have a booming shot (à la Weber or Bergeron) to complement Markov on the PP?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
We need to find someone else. We our undersized, ever more important to have real 4th liners that are willing to bang, Bergeron can't handle that. On D, even worse, he has no physicality in his game and seems week on his skates (he falls often enough to notice without anyone toughing him, and is easily moved out of the way when on D)

As much as his PP play helps, other solutions need to be found, if nothing works, and i mean NOTHING, maybe, i mean MAYBE give him another chance next year. I really hope Subban can take his spot next to Markov on the point, has the right shot to play opposite to Markov, and then Hammer and Spacek(sigh can't believe this disappointment with him on the PP this year)

Bergeron should be done as a hab after this season, especially with the cap right at our throat.
I also wish for a 4th line with more sand paper.

However and regarding: "... I really hope Subban can take his spot next to Markov on the point, has the right shot to play opposite to Markov..."

That (Subban’s right-handedness) would imply playing Markov on the right side during the PP. Otherwise, a right handed playing right would result, from a one-timer perspective, in a slower release. I much prefer Markov on the left side; we saw last season how ineffective Markov is when playing on the right point.

Bottom line: I am not sure that a Markov – Subban pairing would be optimal on our first PP quintet.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 03-07-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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Old
03-07-2010, 01:22 PM
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Em Ancien
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I'd rather not have him on the PP and work with this :



Pleks moves around based on who has the puck (so we overload one side to open up the backdoor for either PK or AK to move in and attack the slot), Markov controls the play and we try to open up lanes for either AK or PK to get pucks on net with a screener in front.

IMO, this is the best PP formation we could work with.

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03-07-2010, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I am a huge fan of Subban (he is already one of our top6 Ds imo) but does he have a booming shot (à la Weber or Bergeron) to complement Markov on the PP?
his shot is strong ans i dont think its about booming shots, streit had a weak shot but it hit the mark. The problem i see is that pk is a right handed shot. him and markov would have to switch spots on the pp. it could work, we will have to wait and see.



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03-07-2010, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I am a huge fan of Subban (he is already one of our top6 Ds imo) but does he have a booming shot (à la Weber or Bergeron) to complement Markov on the PP?
He may not have as booming a shot as Bergeron but he does a great job of getting the puck on net on a consistent basis, and that would already be a huge upgrade on Spacek right now. Like someone else said, Bergeron is too much of a liability everywhere else on the ice to re-sign. You can't just keep a player around for the PP--it's not like football where you can get away with just being a kickoff returner. Build the team properly with properly designated roles for each player, from the 1st line to the 4th, etc.,.

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03-07-2010, 01:28 PM
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if only spacek could hit the net. Hes not even playing on the 1st pp unit

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03-07-2010, 01:29 PM
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Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackZap View Post
if only spacek could hit the net. Hes not even playing on the 1st pp unit
Spacek provided us with a solid, very solid defensive contribution: him and Hamrlik are shouldering a huge chunk of ice-time and responsibilities.

However his poor PP contribution (poor shooting skill - he can’t find the seam) is one of my biggest disappointments thus far in 2009-10; I was expecting an offensive D man!


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 03-07-2010 at 01:45 PM.
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03-07-2010, 01:38 PM
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there are several quality UFA defensemen next summer, Gauthier will have to sign one of them..

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03-07-2010, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
I'd rather not have him on the PP and work with this :



Pleks moves around based on who has the puck (so we overload one side to open up the backdoor for either PK or AK to move in and attack the slot), Markov controls the play and we try to open up lanes for either AK or PK to get pucks on net with a screener in front.

IMO, this is the best PP formation we could work with.
Take off a forward and put in a goaltender and it should be alright

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03-07-2010, 01:40 PM
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Em Ancien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
Take off a forward and put in a goaltender and it should be alright
Read the explanation, it's Pleks moving based on which side the puck is.

No need to put a goalie in, I'm talking power play.

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03-07-2010, 01:41 PM
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Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamrun View Post
his shot is strong ans i dont think its about booming shots, streit had a weak shot but it hit the mark. The problem i see is that pk is a right handed shot. him and markov would have to switch spots on the pp. it could work, we will have to wait and see.


92,7MPH eh? Not bad!

I noticed one of the YT comments: "P.K. Subban's hardest shot ever was 102 mph!"

102 mph... Is it true? I know (source: mckeenshockey) that Bergeron hardest shot was 103MPH.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
He may not have as booming a shot as Bergeron but he does a great job of getting the puck on net on a consistent basis, and that would already be a huge upgrade on Spacek right now. Like someone else said, Bergeron is too much of a liability everywhere else on the ice to re-sign. You can't just keep a player around for the PP--it's not like football where you can get away with just being a kickoff returner. Build the team properly with properly designated roles for each player, from the 1st line to the 4th, etc.,.
"He may not have as booming a shot as Bergeron but he does a great job of getting the puck on net on a consistent basis, and that would already be a huge upgrade on Spacek right now..."

The capacity to find the seam, a quick release and the heaviness/strength of the shot are equally important. Guys like Schneider, Streit, Weber, Bergeron and Souray, excel in the 3 aforementioned aspects. I think we need a guy like that to play alongside Markov.

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03-07-2010, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Spacek provided us with a solid, very solid defensive contribution: him and Hamrlik are shouldering a huge chunk of ice-time and responsibilities.

However his poor PP contribution (poor shooting skill - he can’t find the seam) is a one of my biggest disappointments thus far in 2009-10; I was expecting an offensive D man!
I would say average defensive contribution at best..

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03-07-2010, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
92,7MPH eh? Not bad!

I noticed one of the YT comments: "P.K. Subban's hardest shot ever was 102 mph!"

102 mph... Is it true? I know (source: mckeenshockey) that Bergeron hardest shot was 103MPH.





"He may not have as booming a shot as Bergeron but he does a great job of getting the puck on net on a consistent basis, and that would already be a huge upgrade on Spacek right now..."

The capacity to find the seam, a quick release and the heaviness/strength of the shot are equally important. Guys like Schneider, Streit, Weber, Bergeron and Souray, excel in the 3 aforementioned aspects. I think we need a guy like that to play alongside Markov.
I have two words for you: salary cap. There's just no way we can afford to keep a guy like Bergeron on the team next year. If we find a way to sign the goalies and Plekanec, I also expect Lapierre, SK, and probably Metro to be gone next year too.

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03-07-2010, 04:16 PM
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Spacek is getting too slow to play on the PP. He can't set himself up fast enough on the blue line. That's why his shot is no more accurate and why he sometimes messes up the pass completely. Gorges doesn't have a point shot. Subban is an upgrade. I would try Gionta before I try Andrei on the point. Andrei or Pouliot should go in front of the net to block the goalie. Gionta is fast and could back check if required.

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Old
03-07-2010, 04:21 PM
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Reality check; Bergeron is proven canon commodity on PP that Mtl cannot afford to ignore... I predict he will be there in some ( 4/6) playoff games (if we miraculously) get there!
I doubt very much we'll see Subban unless injuries recalls IMO.
Subban will be put in a winning (confidence building) situation in Ham;
I feel he will be the premier factor, for Ham Calder cup run.

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03-07-2010, 04:34 PM
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Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
I have two words for you: salary cap. There's just no way we can afford to keep a guy like Bergeron on the team next year. If we find a way to sign the goalies and Plekanec, I also expect Lapierre, SK, and probably Metro to be gone next year too.
Bergeron’s current cap hit is 750 000$.

Paul Mara’s cap hit is 1,7M$ and Weber’s cap hit is 900 000$. Last season, our depth Ds (Bouillon, Dandenault, Brisebois) were making 1,5-1,8M$. If Bergeron is willing to sign between 750 000$ and... 1,3/1,5M$ per season, I would gladly "ink" him.

Imo he would be a great insurance policy for our PP and a solid #6/7D and/or #12/13F => Versatility (D/F) => a 22 players’ roster => saving cap space

Pierre Jr... (1) how much would you be willing to spend on your #6/7D and/or #12/13F (please keep in mind the aforementioned numbers for the current and 2008-09 seasons) and (2) how much do you think Bergeron will ask?


Edit:

At this point, I need to remind everyone that without Marc-André Bergeron, the Montreal 2009-10 Canadiens Power Play sucks:

With Bergeron
PPG: 40
PP Opp: 147
PP%: 27,7 (would be good for 1st overall)

Without Bergeron
PPG: 9
PP Opp: 55
PP%: 16,4 (would be "good" for 25th overall)


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 03-07-2010 at 04:41 PM.
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Old
03-07-2010, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Bergeron’s current cap hit is 750 000$.

Paul Mara’s cap hit is 1,7M$ and Weber’s cap hit is 900 000$. Last season, our depth Ds (Bouillon, Dandenault, Brisebois) were making 1,5-1,8M$. If Bergeron is willing to sign between 750 000$ and... 1,3/1,5M$ per season, I would gladly "ink" him.

Imo he would be a great insurance policy for our PP and a solid #6/7D and/or #12/13F => Versatility (D/F) => a 22 players’ roster => saving cap space

Pierre Jr... (1) how much would you be willing to spend on your #6/7D and/or #12/13F (please keep in mind the aforementioned numbers for the current and 2008-09 seasons) and (2) how much do you think Bergeron will ask?


Edit:

At this point, I need to remind everyone that without Marc-André Bergeron, the Montreal 2009-10 Canadiens Power Play sucks:

With Bergeron
PPG: 40
PP Opp: 147
PP%: 27,7 (would be good for 1st overall)

Without Bergeron
PPG: 9
PP Opp: 55
PP%: 16,4 (would be "good" for 25th overall)
Keep in mind before i make any statements, everything i say kind of gets thrown out the window if Plekanec doesn't re-sign with the Habs.

But if he does...

Our 4th line + 1 forward need to make a total of about 2.5M. So we're talking like Darche, Pyatt, White, and i guess Maxwell. Our signed D-men for next year are Markov, Hamrlik, Spacek, Gorges, O'Byrne and Gill. Weber is already signed too but we'll probably leave him in the minors. Bring up Subban as your 7th D and save around 500k on Bergeron imo. This should come to a total of about 3M on 5 guys, giving maybe just enough room to fit in Plekanec and a goalie. If the cap goes down i don't think we'll be able to afford both goalies, but who knows.

Also, the numbers you mentioned about this season and last can be pretty much thrown out the window as well because of the cap difficulties we'll be facing next year. Whole new ball game coming up. MAB at 750 000 is a great deal. It really is. We just can't afford him on our team, especially when you're trying to squeeze in Plekanec and both Halak and Price. Sorry.

Listen i understand the importance of the PP. I know that Bergeron has won us games, i know how important he has been to our team. Thing is, no team will ever win playoff type games with this guy on defence. He's too much of a liability. Better to find a way internally to figure out the PP woes than to re-sign this guy. Why not try a forward on the point? A lot of other teams do it, what makes us so special that we don't?

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03-07-2010, 10:36 PM
  #21
Kjell Dahlin
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- UPDATE -


2009-10 Montreal Canadiens; PP
Power Play Goals (PPG) : 49
Power Play Opportunities (PP Opp): 205
Power Play % (PP%): 23,9 (2nd overall)

With Bergeron
PPG: 40
PP Opp: 147
PP%: 27,7 (would be good for 1st overall)

Without Bergeron
PPG: 9
PP Opp: 58
PP%: 15,5 (would be "good" for 29th overall)

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03-08-2010, 02:19 AM
  #22
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What I hope is that we can get rid of Spacek salary, by trading him for a pick or a young player. I'm sure we could easily get a 2nd round pick with him. (remember we got a 1st and Gorges for Rivet!). That would make some space for Plekanec's new contract, hopefully for an offensive 3rd line UFA center, and maybe for Bergeron.

I don't know if there's enough space under the cap, but I'd try to sign Matthew Lombardi. It depends how much, of course. If he's too expensive, I'd try Matt Cullen, Éric Bélanger or Mike Grier.

I hope out team looks like that in 2010-11 :

Cammalleri - Plekanec - A. Kostitsyn
Pouliot - Gomez - Gionta
S. Kostitsyn - Lombardi - Pyatt/Pacioretty
Moen - Lapierre - Bergeron/White

Markov - Gorges
Hamrlik - Subban
Gill - O'Byrne/Bergeron

I see Bergeron as the 7th defenseman, and the 13th forward. Because there's usually at least one player injured per game, Bergeron would basically have a regular spot.

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03-08-2010, 02:34 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
- UPDATE -


2009-10 Montreal Canadiens; PP
Power Play Goals (PPG) : 49
Power Play Opportunities (PP Opp): 205
Power Play % (PP%): 23,9 (2nd overall)

With Bergeron
PPG: 40
PP Opp: 147
PP%: 27,7 (would be good for 1st overall)

Without Bergeron
PPG: 9
PP Opp: 58
PP%: 15,5 (would be "good" for 29th overall)


Can you verify your stats by comparing the powerplay with other impact players such as Cammalleri, Markov and AK47?

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03-08-2010, 02:43 AM
  #24
Markowicz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
What I hope is that we can get rid of Spacek salary, by trading him for a pick or a young player. I'm sure we could easily get a 2nd round pick with him. (remember we got a 1st and Gorges for Rivet!). That would make some space for Plekanec's new contract, hopefully for an offensive 3rd line UFA center, and maybe for Bergeron.

I don't know if there's enough space under the cap, but I'd try to sign Matthew Lombardi. It depends how much, of course. If he's too expensive, I'd try Matt Cullen, Éric Bélanger or Mike Grier.

I hope out team looks like that in 2010-11 :

Cammalleri - Plekanec - A. Kostitsyn
Pouliot - Gomez - Gionta
S. Kostitsyn - Lombardi - Pyatt/Pacioretty
Moen - Lapierre - Bergeron/White

Markov - Gorges
Hamrlik - Subban
Gill - O'Byrne/Bergeron

I see Bergeron as the 7th defenseman, and the 13th forward. Because there's usually at least one player injured per game, Bergeron would basically have a regular spot.
Getting rid of Spacek's contract gives us the wiggle room to sign both goalies and Plekanec but as far as other UFA's, forget about it. All we'll be able to afford is our own cheap AHL players (Pyatt, Darche, White) and maybe Moore. And that's just fine and dandy in my opinion. This is the best possible scenario for us next year:

Cammalleri - Plekanec - A. Kostitsyn
Pouliot - Gomez - Gionta
Pyatt - Moore - Pacioretty
Moen - Lapierre- White

Markov - Gorges
Hamrlik - Subban
Gill - O'Byrne

Halak
Price

If Gauthier can manage to pull that off it will be a minor miracle, sort of like our win over the Ducks tonight!

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03-11-2010, 06:12 PM
  #25
Kjell Dahlin
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~ BUMP~

I don’t want to hijack 5on3’s (5on3 is a poster btw!) thread, so I will post my answer here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
There's a nuance to give to this stat, the percentage without Bergeron does not include the fact that there is a percentage of games where both Markov and Bergeron were gone. As lately, they haven't been that bad in PP, not 16,7% anyway. Much higher actually, with Markov in and MAB out, than when both are out.
Canadiens PP% - updated

A. Without Bergeron; since the Olympics break: 2/12 => 16,7% (would be "good" for 24th in the league)

B. Since Bergeron went down on Feb 4th: 6/34 => 17,6% (would be "good" for 19th in the league)

---------

C. Markov in, Bergeron out: 6/29 => 20,7% (would be good for 6th in the league)

D. Bergeron in, Markov out: 17/79 => 21,5% (would be good for 5th in the league)

E. Markov in, Bergeron in: 23/68 => 33,8%!!! (would be good for 1st in the league)

F. Markov out, Bergeron out: 4/31 => 12,9% (would be "good" for 30th in the league)

---------

G. Without Markov in 2009-10: 21/110 => 19,1% (would be good for 11th in the league)

H. With Markov in 2009-10: 29/97 => 29,9% (would be good for 1st in the league)

---------

I. Without Bergeron in 2009-10: 10/60 => 16,7% (would be "good" for 24th in the league)

J. With Bergeron in 2009-10: 40/147 => 27,2% (would be good for 1st in the league)

---------

K. Overall: 50/207 => 24,2% (good for 2nd in the league)

---------

I fully realise that some of the scenarios are not based on a big enough sample (#games) but if we forget the exact %, I think we can, based on all those numbers and observations (Markov’s knack at sneaking in the slot, his great cross ice passes, Bergeron’s booming shot + his capacity to find the seam => opponents are cheating towards him => it creates space elsewhere...), assert that...
  • When at least one of Markov or Bergeron is in the line-up, we have a good PP – see “C” and “D”
  • Bergeron is equally important to our PP than Markov – see “C”, “D”, and “G-J”. Not bad for a 750000$ cap hit eh?
  • With Markov and Bergeron onboard, our PP is great – see “E” (vs ”F”)

=>

Just Markov: good – see “C” (though lately, we suck on PP – see “A” and “B”)

Markov + Bergeron: great – see “E”

So...

-----------
Question:

If Martin and that Perry Pearn guy are unable to bring this PP back on tracks[/B] (see “A” and “B”) or simply to bring this PP from good (see “C”) to great (see “E”), would you make room for Bergeron?
-----------

If your answer is yes... who would you send to the press box?

... a forward ?

Moen - Moore – Lapierre
Darche – Metropolit – S. Kostitsyn
+ Pyatt

... or a D?

Gill, O’Byrne, Mara and Bergeron – two spots available


Personally I have no idea so I hope Martin/Pearn will be able to bring the PP back on tracks... it would solve this “problem”!

Kjell Dahlin is offline   Reply With Quote
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