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Off-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & roster Moves (related topics here) IX

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Old
03-09-2010, 05:27 PM
  #26
ABasin
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Originally Posted by Hermit Wizard Eater View Post
You said that we could be looking at a next Schultz/young Foote/Regehr, and then, 'that may be a bit of an exaggeration'.

So which is it? A player that could be a next Foote/Schultz/Regehr, or a slight exaggeration on your part?


I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about semantics. Micenuts semantics at that. I put an ample caveat in my post.

But, back to Wilson. I've been as impressed with his play as a rookie, as any other rookie on the roster. He's played on the 2nd pairing all season long, and aside from Hannan, he's been as good and consistent a defensive defender as any defenseman on the Avs. Quincey was better early in the season, but Wilson's been better lately. And Wilson has been hell and gone better than Clark, Foote, Liles or Cumiskey. How often does a rookie come in and do that?

What I believe he does well, is he is positionally sound, he's physical and tough to play against, he plays a generally consistent game, chips in offensively, and while we're not going to mistake him for Cumiskey any time soon, he isn't nearly as bad a skater as I had read after the Leopold trade.

He clearly needs to work on his outlet passes, and his clearing of the puck. He has too many giveaways in his own end, and he isn't adept at hitting a forward in stride in the neutral zone. Of course, not very many defensemen are.

-AB

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03-09-2010, 05:31 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
After watching the Olympics, maybe Holos can become that guy. Defensive defenders dont all have to be big bruising open ice hitters.
I agree, though I believe his physicality (if that's an actual word) is a nice bonus. Everything else being equal about a defensive defenseman, I'll take the physical guy.

-AB

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03-09-2010, 05:36 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post


I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about semantics. Micenuts semantics at that. I put ample information in my post.

But, back to Wilson. I've been as impressed with his play as a rookie, as any other rookie on the roster. He's played on the 2nd pairing all season long, and aside from Hannan, he's been as good and consistent a defensive defender as any defenseman on the Avs. Quincey was better early in the season, but Wilson's been better lately. And Wilson has been hell and gone better than Clark, Foote, Liles or Cumiskey. How often does a rookie come in and do that?

What I believe he does well, is he is positionally sound, he's physical and tough to play against, he plays a generally consistent game, chips in offensively, and while we're not going to mistake him for Cumiskey any time soon, he isn't nearly as bad a skater as I had read after the Leopold trade.

He clearly needs to work on his outlet passes, and his clearing of the puck. He has too many giveaways in his own end, and he isn't adept at hitting a forward in stride in the neutral zone. Of course, not very many defensemen are.

-AB
Wilson better than Cumisky? I disagree, other than hits (obviously), I think Cumisky has been much better than Wilson in every other aspect. Wilson pinches too much for my liking especially with his speed. Cumisky can pinch and then skate around the rink and still beat his man back. He is a key reason Foote has been an acceptable player for the last half the season. When he went down, we were/are giving up 2 on 1s like no tomorrow (thank god for Andy though, hes saved multiple break aways and 2 on 1s the last few games).

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03-09-2010, 05:54 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Pure View Post
Wilson better than Cumisky? I disagree, other than hits (obviously), I think Cumisky has been much better than Wilson in every other aspect. Wilson pinches too much for my liking especially with his speed.
I respectfully disagree. Cumiskey isn't nearly as good defensively as Wilson in any aspect of the defensive game, IMO. Except skating. While he's improved in his puck movement, it's still pretty dicey. Cumiskey uses his legs to get out of the zone a lot of the time, rather than his passing. And this is a great skill to have.

But, if it's the last 60 seconds of a playoff Game 7 with the opposition pulling their goalie in a one-goal game - if given the choice between Cumiskey being out there or Wilson, you'd choose Cumiskey? I sure wouldn't.

-AB

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03-09-2010, 06:05 PM
  #30
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This could be fun, but who is expendable on this team?

And note - we are past the trade deadline. So now Salei, Svatos, Foote, etc are not acceptable answers.

Liles is the obvious one. Also the toughest to move.

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Old
03-09-2010, 07:17 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I respectfully disagree. Cumiskey isn't nearly as good defensively as Wilson in any aspect of the defensive game, IMO. Except skating. While he's improved in his puck movement, it's still pretty dicey. Cumiskey uses his legs to get out of the zone a lot of the time, rather than his passing. And this is a great skill to have.

But, if it's the last 60 seconds of a playoff Game 7 with the opposition pulling their goalie in a one-goal game - if given the choice between Cumiskey being out there or Wilson, you'd choose Cumiskey? I sure wouldn't.

-AB
I'm with Pure on this one. Cumiskey IMO has outplayed Wilson. Wilson has been good, but Cumiskey relieves so much pressure with his skating and it goes unnoticed sometimes. I'm glad we have both on the team though.

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Old
03-09-2010, 07:29 PM
  #32
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yea Kyle > Ryan

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Old
03-09-2010, 07:48 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by scott76 View Post
This could be fun, but who is expendable on this team?

And note - we are past the trade deadline. So now Salei, Svatos, Foote, etc are not acceptable answers.

Liles is the obvious one. Also the toughest to move.
I still don't get the anti-Liles sentiment. Something like 28 points now in 45 games. Clearly he's playing well at the moment. Cumiskey is flashier but worse defensively and statistically worse offensively. Wilson is the best out of the three based on importance to the team though.

Who is expendable? Well Foote may in fact be back, so if he does come back I'd say he is. Otherwise I'd sooner lose Hannan before Liles. I'd also sooner lose Cumiskey. Wolski's gone, but we may have traded him for a deck of cards in Mueller. We'll find out soon enough.

Really though I don't think any of the pieces past this coming offseason are expendable. That's what makes me feel that next season's team can compete for the cup.

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03-09-2010, 07:59 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I respectfully disagree. Cumiskey isn't nearly as good defensively as Wilson in any aspect of the defensive game, IMO. Except skating. While he's improved in his puck movement, it's still pretty dicey. Cumiskey uses his legs to get out of the zone a lot of the time, rather than his passing. And this is a great skill to have.

But, if it's the last 60 seconds of a playoff Game 7 with the opposition pulling their goalie in a one-goal game - if given the choice between Cumiskey being out there or Wilson, you'd choose Cumiskey? I sure wouldn't.

-AB
Frankly I wouldn't have either players in that situation, but I know who I would rather play more minutes in that game. My main reason is the handling of the puck. Out of every player on our team, Cumisky amazingly as a player who handles the puck quite frequently has 33 takeaways and 23 give aways, a better ratio than every other dman BY FAR. It really shows on the ice too, cause I don't remember him making any big mistakes and limits opponent's forechecks.

Hes helped our slow defensive guys by covering so much of the ice. Wilson's just not reliable enough yet to trust in a big game, where as Cumisky, while no stud in his defensive zone, helps to limit errors.

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03-09-2010, 08:00 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Avsboy View Post
I still don't get the anti-Liles sentiment. Something like 28 points now in 45 games. Clearly he's playing well at the moment. Cumiskey is flashier but worse defensively and statistically worse offensively. Wilson is the best out of the three based on importance to the team though.

Who is expendable? Well Foote may in fact be back, so if he does come back I'd say he is. Otherwise I'd sooner lose Hannan before Liles. I'd also sooner lose Cumiskey. Wolski's gone, but we may have traded him for a deck of cards in Mueller. We'll find out soon enough.

Really though I don't think any of the pieces past this coming offseason are expendable. That's what makes me feel that next season's team can compete for the cup.
Cumiskey is quite a bit better than Liles defensively. More physical, more assertive on the puck, and doesn't get caught standing and watching like Liles does.

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Old
03-09-2010, 08:14 PM
  #36
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I'm with Pure on this one. Cumiskey IMO has outplayed Wilson. Wilson has been good, but Cumiskey relieves so much pressure with his skating and it goes unnoticed sometimes. I'm glad we have both on the team though.
Whereas I'm with AB--Cumiskey's speed is fun to watch and it was working pretty well when he was paired with Foote, but there are shortcomings in Cumiskey's game, the most glaring one being that there are certain lines he can't play against because of his size. Cumiskey has improved significantly this season in his ability to not look lost after skating out of the D-zone, but there's still a ways to go with his passing and shot.

I look at Wilson, and although I was advocating sending him down for more seasoning, he earned his roster spot and has really been technically sound in the D-zone. If he keeps developing over the next couple years, why can't he develop into that shutdown D-man like Foote was when he was 7 years younger or like Hannah was supposed to be before the Avs found out that he plays his best against Forsberg?

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Old
03-09-2010, 08:58 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hockeyguy2007 View Post
Whereas I'm with AB--Cumiskey's speed is fun to watch and it was working pretty well when he was paired with Foote, but there are shortcomings in Cumiskey's game, the most glaring one being that there are certain lines he can't play against because of his size. Cumiskey has improved significantly this season in his ability to not look lost after skating out of the D-zone, but there's still a ways to go with his passing and shot.

I look at Wilson, and although I was advocating sending him down for more seasoning, he earned his roster spot and has really been technically sound in the D-zone. If he keeps developing over the next couple years, why can't he develop into that shutdown D-man like Foote was when he was 7 years younger or like Hannah was supposed to be before the Avs found out that he plays his best against Forsberg?
Cumiskey's passing is underrated. There is nothing wrong with it at all. He just doesn't use it all the time because he has the amazing speed where he can just as easily skate it up. His pass to Mueller tonight was a great one. Most would have just shot it, but he found Mueller at the side of the net.

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Old
03-09-2010, 09:02 PM
  #38
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Frankly I wouldn't have either players in that situation, but I know who I would rather play more minutes in that game. My main reason is the handling of the puck. Out of every player on our team, Cumisky amazingly as a player who handles the puck quite frequently has 33 takeaways and 23 give aways, a better ratio than every other dman BY FAR.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of those particular stats. They're subjective, and tallied different in every arena in the league. Ditto for hits, by the way.

I just don't believe that Cumiskey is very good positionally in his own zone. He's got the wheels, no doubt. It's when he doesn't have the puck that makes me worry.

-AB

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Old
03-10-2010, 12:54 AM
  #39
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NUMBER ONE D!

Martin in offseason! Now Sherman and yes fries with that!

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Old
03-10-2010, 01:24 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
After watching the Olympics, maybe Holos can become that guy. Defensive defenders dont all have to be big bruising open ice hitters.
Talking of defensively responsible defenders... I am really intrigued by the scout report on Erik Gustafsson of Northern Michigan Uni.
HF just had an article on him and several others top collegiate free agents:
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article..._nhl_interest/

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Old
03-10-2010, 03:22 AM
  #41
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I wonder what would have happened to his game, if Cloutier stayed as his defenseman coach.

-AB
Seriously...I have no idea what Cloutier's plans for the future are, but he needs to really consider Reality TV...I can only imagine waking up at 4am turning on the TV and see him pimping a show on NHLTV called "NHL: Dvas" where he teaches up and coming d-men how to reach-around, play soft, let up before the other guy finishes and well...I better stop before Jori gets mad...

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Old
03-10-2010, 10:59 AM
  #42
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NUMBER ONE D!

Martin in offseason! Now Sherman and yes fries with that!
Yeah, I'd trade Liles for his negotiating rights...

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03-10-2010, 11:39 AM
  #43
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Yeah, I'd trade Liles for his negotiating rights...
I'd trade Liles to the Devs on the condition that not only do we get the negotiating rights but we also get him under contract. I wouldn't trade Liles just for the negotiating rights but no guarantee of Martin signing

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03-10-2010, 11:45 AM
  #44
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I'd trade Liles to the Devs on the condition that not only do we get the negotiating rights but we also get him under contract. I wouldn't trade Liles just for the negotiating rights but no guarantee of Martin signing
I would. Worst case, it's a big salary dump and an open slot for a young guy. Best case, Paul Martin.

granted you might get more for Liles on the market, but I wouldn't think it's appreciably more given his contract.

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03-10-2010, 12:04 PM
  #45
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Yeah, I'm not a fan of those particular stats. They're subjective, and tallied different in every arena in the league. Ditto for hits, by the way.

I just don't believe that Cumiskey is very good positionally in his own zone. He's got the wheels, no doubt. It's when he doesn't have the puck that makes me worry.

-AB
They are usually subjective, but in this case, it matches reality pretty well. Cumisky's lack of defensive position is made up for by his ability to cover more of the ice. When we pair him with a player who plays well without the puck, the pair is defensively reliable overall. A good offense is sometimes the best defense (steady puck possession). I don't feel like we get pinned in our zone as much with Cumisky and we don't give away a lot of two on ones with him.

I thought he was the best dman for the avs last night (not that its saying much), playing over 23 minutes and managed to be a plus 1. He was bad on that 2nd goal from Samuelsson (I feel his defensive instincts are still not sharp enough) but the blame also rests on Andy for his bad puck handling and foote for allowing his man to pass him effortlessly (twice).


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Old
03-10-2010, 12:17 PM
  #46
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I would. Worst case, it's a big salary dump and an open slot for a young guy. Best case, Paul Martin.

granted you might get more for Liles on the market, but I wouldn't think it's appreciably more given his contract.
the sauce agrees with the Doc on this one

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Old
03-10-2010, 12:54 PM
  #47
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Cumiskey's passing is underrated. There is nothing wrong with it at all. He just doesn't use it all the time because he has the amazing speed where he can just as easily skate it up. His pass to Mueller tonight was a great one. Most would have just shot it, but he found Mueller at the side of the net.
Just to clarify, it seems to me that Cumiskey's passing within the offensive zone when the Avs are set up is fine, it's just off the rush he sometimes seems a little confused about where to pass/dump in the puck. Or maybe it's just my impression.

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Old
03-10-2010, 01:57 PM
  #48
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Just to clarify, it seems to me that Cumiskey's passing within the offensive zone when the Avs are set up is fine, it's just off the rush he sometimes seems a little confused about where to pass/dump in the puck. Or maybe it's just my impression.
Nope, you're absolutely right--Cumiskey's passes sometimes are the result of indecision rather than making an actual play. I'm sure the consistency will come in time, but right now his passing and shooting are still not where they need to be.

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Old
03-10-2010, 03:47 PM
  #49
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I propose these new d pairings:

Cumiskey-Hannan
Quincey-Wilson
Liles-Foote

Any objections? Nope. Well I'll send them in to Sacco then.

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Old
03-10-2010, 04:03 PM
  #50
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Not sure what anyone else thinks, but we could get some solid depth at forward signing Mike Testwuide from CC!

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