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Kevin Lowe on the Jason Gregor Show

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Old
03-15-2010, 01:44 PM
  #301
hockeyaddict101
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Oh I agree its ridiculous . Type the words " can't blame Horcoff " into the forum search function and see how many posts pop up .

Lowe has taken heat on the deal . Lots and lots of heat . Yet too many posters insist on characterizing Horcoff's part in the process exactly as I did above .
I haven't read that very often. I have read more of Horcoff is a greedy sop.

No one here would have refused that contract and Lowe didn't have to offer it.

Sorry, I don't blame Horcoff for signing a contract offered him OR negotiated by his agent. (it really doesn't matter because it takes two sides to agree to a contract)

Mostly this board wants to blame Horcoff for anything and everything. I read more of that than anything else on this board.

No it isn't a great contract but to blame Horcoff for signing it is ridiculous!

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03-15-2010, 01:58 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
I haven't read that very often. I have read more of Horcoff is a greedy sop.

No one here would have refused that contract and Lowe didn't have to offer it.

Sorry, I don't blame Horcoff for signing a contract offered him OR negotiated by his agent. (it really doesn't matter because it takes two sides to agree to a contract)

Mostly this board wants to blame Horcoff for anything and everything. I read more of that than anything else on this board.

No it isn't a great contract but to blame Horcoff for signing it is ridiculous!
Well its definitely fair to make judgements of Horcoff's character and what not.

But you're absolutely correct, I wouldn't think twice if that kind of money was on the table for me to sign. Some posters here will refuse to admit that just so they have a leg to stand on in this silly argument.

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03-15-2010, 02:03 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Well its definitely fair to make judgements of Horcoff's character and what not.

But you're absolutely correct, I wouldn't think twice if that kind of money was on the table for me to sign. Some posters here will refuse to admit that just so they have a leg to stand on in this silly argument.
He has had a terrible year, there is no defending that.

But in reality I haven't read any bad things about his character outside of this board.

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03-15-2010, 02:06 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
He has had a terrible year, there is no defending that.

But in reality I haven't read any bad things about his character outside of this board.
It's still fair game to question his character. Nothing has ever suggested that Horcoff can be a 5.5 million player for 6 years. Nothing.

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03-15-2010, 02:09 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
It's still fair game to question his character. Nothing has ever suggested that Horcoff can be a 5.5 million player for 6 years. Nothing.
Not saying it isn't fair game, but I haven't really seen much to support him having bad character.

From everything I have read, he works hard, is a good teammate, etc.

I am certainly not defending the contract at all, but there is nothing I have seen to substantiate a character assasination.

We always seem to want to villanize players (Penner and the fridge last year) ,Horcoff and the greedy sop this year.

I see no reason to have to do that.

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03-15-2010, 02:16 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Not saying it isn't fair game, but I haven't really seen much to support him having bad character.

From everything I have read, he works hard, is a good teammate, etc.

I am certainly not defending the contract at all, but there is nothing I have seen to substantiate a character assasination.

We always seem to want to villanize players (Penner and the fridge last year) ,Horcoff and the greedy sop this year.

I see no reason to have to do that.
Well we all know any "good character" hockey player who is a winner or wants to be a winner wouldn't put his team in cap hell by signing an inflated contract.

But again would I do it, hell yes.

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03-15-2010, 02:21 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Well we all know any "good character" hockey player who is a winner or wants to be a winner wouldn't put his team in cap hell by signing an inflated contract.

But again would I do it, hell yes.
Obviously BOTH sides didn't think it was inflated.

Again you are going back to the 'greedy sop' argument.

If the contract was so obviously inflated that makes Lowe a moron for agreeing to it.

BUT imo, it was a different cap era, Horcoff had just come off a career year etc, etc. Lowe obviously thought he would tie up what he thought would be his number one centre for years to come.

Horcoff and his agent obviously felt that his client had had a great year and probably thought it would continue and wanted the security of a long term contract.

Yes, Lowe has made mistakes, but I do not think he is a moron and I do not believe Horcoff is a greedy sop.

Were there red flags? Obviously, but I do not think anyone thought he would have this kind of year.

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03-15-2010, 02:27 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Obviously BOTH sides didn't think it was inflated.

Again you are going back to the 'greedy sop' argument.

If the contract was so obviously inflated that makes Lowe a moron for agreeing to it.

BUT imo, it was a different cap era, Horcoff had just come off a career year etc, etc. Lowe obviously thought he would tie up what he thought would be his number one centre for years to come.

Horcoff and his agent obviously felt that his client had had a great year and probably thought it would continue and wanted the security of a long term contract.

Yes, Lowe has made mistakes, but I do not think he is a moron and I do not believe Horcoff is a greedy sop.

Were there red flags? Obviously, but I do not think anyone thought he would have this kind of year.
No, but again I will go back to the time of signing the contract. Horcoff hadn't proven at anypoint in his career that he was a 5.5 million dollar player for a 6 year duration. No where was there signs that this was possible. Lowe is ridiculous for agreeing to the contract but obviously Horcoffs side didn't say wella lright we are looking for something in the 4 million dollar range on a long term and then Lowe replies, no-way I was thinking around 6.

You are right it takes two sides to negotiate a bad contract, but for Horcoff or anyone to have thought he was worth that kind of money at that time was ridiculous. Say Horcoff went out and he put up a similar season to the half year he put up prior to signing the contract. Do you really think he would have garnered more than 5.5?

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03-15-2010, 02:34 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
No, but again I will go back to the time of signing the contract. Horcoff hadn't proven at anypoint in his career that he was a 5.5 million dollar player for a 6 year duration. No where was there signs that this was possible. Lowe is ridiculous for agreeing to the contract but obviously Horcoffs side didn't say wella lright we are looking for something in the 4 million dollar range on a long term and then Lowe replies, no-way I was thinking around 6.

You are right it takes two sides to negotiate a bad contract, but for Horcoff or anyone to have thought he was worth that kind of money at that time was ridiculous. Say Horcoff went out and he put up a similar season to the half year he put up prior to signing the contract. Do you really think he would have garnered more than 5.5?
Again would you? Would you have said no, I am not worth that much?

I think the answer would be no. Are you greedy? Or would you say I just took advantage of a great situation and hired a great agent.

Greedy? Perhaps. I guess that makes us all greedy. I must be greedy because I would have signed that contract. What intelligent person would not negotiate from a position of strength? His agent did the job he was hired to do!

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03-15-2010, 02:36 PM
  #310
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Everyone thought Horcoff was worth that money. Someone please pull up the thread where he is signed and everyone is ecstatic about the contract.

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03-15-2010, 02:39 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by samgagner View Post
Everyone thought Horcoff was worth that money. Someone please pull up the thread where he is signed and everyone is ecstatic about the contract.
I remember posters having doubts about the contract and that thread has been pulled up more than once.

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03-15-2010, 02:44 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Again would you? Would you have said no, I am not worth that much?

I think the answer would be no. Are you greedy? Or would you say I just took advantage of a great situation and hired a great agent.

Greedy? Perhaps. I guess that makes us all greedy. I must be greedy because I would have signed that contract. What intelligent person would not negotiate from a position of strength? His agent did the job he was hired to do!
Exactly and I have acknowledged that, I would take the money and run. Of course it makes someone greedy. I give props to Horc for taking advantage of that situation. Still doesn't mean that he hasn't handcuffed this org unless he returns to a point per game player and a 60% guy on faceoffs for the duration of his contract.

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03-15-2010, 02:46 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Exactly and I have acknowledged that, I would take the money and run. Of course it makes someone greedy. I give props to Horc for taking advantage of that situation. Still doesn't mean that he hasn't handcuffed this org unless he returns to a point per game player and a 60% guy on faceoffs for the duration of his contract.
If that is the definition of greedy than 100% of the population is greedy or pretty close to it.

That is a pretty bland insult.

It also makes Lowe a moron.

IMO my assessment was a little more closer to how both sides were thinking at the time.

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03-15-2010, 02:52 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
If that is the definition of greedy than 100% of the population is greedy or pretty close to it.

That is a pretty bland insult.

It also makes Lowe a moron.

IMO my assessment was a little more closer to how both sides were thinking at the time.
Regardless of your assessment, these people are public figures and are open to scrutiny for their actions. I still fail to see how either side saw something that was worth 5.5 over 6 years. Someone was smoking something serious that day.

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03-15-2010, 02:57 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Regardless of your assessment, these people are public figures and are open to scrutiny for their actions. I still fail to see how either side saw something that was worth 5.5 over 6 years. Someone was smoking something serious that day.
Obviously they must have.

Do you really think Lowe would have signed a contract he didn't think was fair at the time? Your assessment makes him a moron. He obviously thought it was a fair contract.

As for Horcoff, his agent maximized a really good year into a contract that Lowe thought was fair. He did his job and his client signed the contract.

Frankly I do not think Horcoff is any greedier than most of us. As for Lowe, he obviously thought that Horcoff would continue on the same path. There is no way he thought he was giving a contract that was too high at the time.

And I never once said the contract shouldn't be scrutinized, I said that Horcoff IMO is no greedier than anyone else.

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03-15-2010, 02:59 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Obviously they must have.

Do you really think Lowe would have signed a contract he didn't think was fair at the time? Your assessment makes him a moron. He obviously thought it was a fair contract.

As for Horcoff, his agent maximized a really good year into a contract that Lowe thought was fair. He did his job and his client signed the contract.

Frankly I do not think Horcoff is any greedier than most of us. As for Lowe, he obviously thought that Horcoff would continue on the same path. There is no way he thought he was giving a contract that was too high at the time.
No Horcoff isn't, but because he is in the public eye he is open to scrutiny.

As for Lowe thinking it was fair does that mean it was fair?

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03-15-2010, 03:03 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
No Horcoff isn't, but because he is in the public eye he is open to scrutiny.

As for Lowe thinking it was fair does that mean it was fair?
Of course not! Obviously the contract is not a good one. Lowe made a mistake but he obviously didn't think so at the time.

But IMO the definition of greedy is excessive, more than anyone else.

What you are admittedly describing is a contract that almost everyone here would have signed. Not the definition of greedy IMO.

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03-15-2010, 03:05 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Of course not! Obviously the contract is not a good one. Lowe made a mistake but he obviously didn't think so at the time.

But IMO the definition of greedy is excessive, more than anyone else.

What you are admittedly describing is a contract that almost everyone here would have signed. Not the definition of greedy IMO.
My definition of greedy is taking a greater sum of money than I know I am worth and trying to argue and justify my position when I know I am out to lunch.

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03-15-2010, 03:06 PM
  #319
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My definition of greedy is taking a greater sum of money than I know I am worth and trying to argue and justify my position when I know I am out to lunch.
Hmm... That is why you don't have a career as a player agent.

Wish I had one!

Guess I am greedy.

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03-15-2010, 03:09 PM
  #320
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Hmm... That is why you don't have a career as a player agent.

Wish I had one!
Or a used car salesman. Some have standards some don't and that's alright. To each their own.

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03-15-2010, 03:10 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post

Guess I am greedy.
Everyone has a little greed in them. That is what money and wealth has done to people. Especially the western world.

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03-15-2010, 03:11 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Or a used car salesman. Some have standards some don't and that's alright. To each their own.
You have already admitted that you would have signed that contract!

You are no different than Horcoff is or I am.

You just want to continue with the Greedy sop example so are suddenly acting like your standards are higher.

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03-15-2010, 03:14 PM
  #323
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You have already admitted that you would have signed that contract!

You are no different than Horcoff is or I am.

You just want to continue with the Greedy sop example so are suddenly acting like your standards are higher.
No I'm saying I couldn't sell something ****** as something that is of value. However yes I would take the money, nowhere did I say my standards are higher. Different people can do different things. Eventhough it is greed you have been able to accept that as a way of life and not see it as greed. Keep ploughing away though.

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03-15-2010, 07:53 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Again would you? Would you have said no, I am not worth that much?

I think the answer would be no. Are you greedy? Or would you say I just took advantage of a great situation and hired a great agent.

Greedy? Perhaps. I guess that makes us all greedy. I must be greedy because I would have signed that contract. What intelligent person would not negotiate from a position of strength? His agent did the job he was hired to do!
Once again you miss the point entirely .

It is not a matter of Lowe dropping seven years and thirty five million dollars on the table and asking Horcoff to sign . You make it sound like he was totally uninvolved in the process . He and his agent worked the Oilers up to seven years and thirty five million and then had the unmitigated gall to demand ( and receive ) a restrictive NMC on top of it .

Yes Lowe was stupid - I've conceded that all along . Is it OK to rip off stupid people in your world ?

Yes Horc's agent was just doing his job . Do you like greedy agents who are only interested in filling their own pockets with other people's money ?

Yes we all would have taken the money under the Penner scenario . Personally I would not have done what Horcoff did because I would have realized that I wasn't worthy to carry Hemsky's skates and would never have wanted to earn more than him .

I think it speaks to Horc's character . You disagree which is fine , but don't try to diminish the argument with nonsensical and completely unrelated rubbish like " well I would have taken the money too " .

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03-15-2010, 08:08 PM
  #325
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Horcoff was coming off a season where he appeared in the All-Star Game and had 21 goals and 50 points in 53 games. That's pro-rated at 32 goals and 77 points. This while playing most of the year with a shoulder injury.

His contract averages out to $5.5 million per season. Considering Kristian Huselius signed a similar deal for $4.75 million as a comparable and considering Horcoff's other intangibles, it's not too difficult to see how Horcoff's agent could arrive at the number he did.

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